I don’t accept the Feenyite position but it appeared to me that Pope Eugene was a Feenyite before I understood it properly.Your conclusion from the quote you provided is, quite simply, a non sequitur. Where does this quote say anything about Baptism of desire/blood? Or catechumens? Multiple magisterial statements in support of Baptism of desire/blood have already been quoted, or do you not accept Trent and the CCC? Why is this simple and merciful teaching so hard to accept? Baptism of blood/desire does not in any way negate the necessity of Baptism or the dogma that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. I just don’t understand the stubbornness of the Feeneyite position.
Pope Eugene IV infallibly declared baptism of desire is not acceptable for salvation.
Pope Eugene IV ( A.D. 1441 ) " no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed his blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.Your conclusion from the quote you provided is, quite simply, a non sequitur. Where does this quote say anything about Baptism of desire/blood?
But you are yourself outside the church, how can you speak with any authority on any matter?Pope Leo XIII, Nobilissima (# 3), Feb. 8, 1884:
“The Church, guardian of the integrity of the Faith – which, in virtue of its authority, deputed from God its Founder, has to call all nations to the knowledge of Christian lore, and which is consequently bound to watch keenly over the teaching and upbringing of the children placed under its authority by baptism…”
Who’s on the wrong path? The one who denies the necessity of membership in the Church and reception of the sacraments for salvation. The one who would blasphemously assert that Christ instituted His Church and sacraments frivolously.
So, I guess you also deny the possibility of having sins forgiven through an act of perfect contrition, don’t you? After all, if we can have our sins forgiven by making a supernatural act of perfect contrition, why the need for the sacrament of confession? Based on your reasoning, this would make the sacrament frivilous.Pope Leo XIII, Nobilissima (# 3), Feb. 8, 1884:
“The Church, guardian of the integrity of the Faith – which, in virtue of its authority, deputed from God its Founder, has to call all nations to the knowledge of Christian lore, and which is consequently bound to watch keenly over the teaching and upbringing of the children placed under its authority by baptism…”
Who’s on the wrong path? The one who denies the necessity of membership in the Church and reception of the sacraments for salvation. The one who would blasphemously assert that Christ instituted His Church and sacraments frivolously.
I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.Now Pope Boniface could be a Feenyite. Every “CREATURE” must be subject to the Roman Pontiff.
That’s just it… baptism of desire/blood is not outside of the Church. You are very much mistaken.Pope Eugene IV ( A.D. 1441 ) " no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed his blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.
" Cantata Domino" Council of Florence
The Bull ‘Unam Sanctam’, in which Pope Boniface VIII asserted his rights against King Phillip the Fair of France, is a landmark in the history of the doctrine of Papal Primacy. (Promulgated November 18, 1302)I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
Your switching gears here. Stay with baptism of desire. Why don’t you respond to my last post with the quote from Pope Pius XII.The Bull ‘Unam Sanctam’, in which Pope Boniface VIII asserted his rights against King Phillip the Fair of France, is a landmark in the history of the doctrine of Papal Primacy. (Promulgated November 18, 1302)
Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins………… Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.
Pope Benedict XVI “Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith.”
It looks like Benedict is teaching something contrary to Eugene.
Pope Benedict seems to be extending the idea of Baptism of desire well beyond the limits that were understood prior to VII; even VII only held out the possibility of salvation for those who possess an implicit desire. The debate about implicit desire should really be the topic of another thread. Time will tell whether this reformable teaching on implicit desire, quoted above, will result in true development of doctrine or will simply need to be abandoned. Regarding the classic teaching for explicit desire, there is absolutely no conflict between Baptism of desire/blood and Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus.The Bull ‘Unam Sanctam’, in which Pope Boniface VIII asserted his rights against King Phillip the Fair of France, is a landmark in the history of the doctrine of Papal Primacy. (Promulgated November 18, 1302)
Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins………… Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.
Pope Benedict XVI “Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith.”
It looks like Benedict is teaching something contrary to Eugene.
So, I guess you also deny the possibility of having sins forgiven through an act of perfect contrition, don’t you? After all, if we can have our sins forgiven by making a supernatural act of perfect contrition, why the need for the sacrament of confession? Based on your reasoning, this would make the sacrament frivilous.
Just as it is possible to have sins forgiven by an act of perfect contrition (and no one denies that - not even the Dimond Brothers), so too is it possible to obtain the state of grace via baptism of desire, if the actual reception of the sacrament is not possible for whatever reason.
**Pope Pius XII: **“In the case of other sacraments, when the minister is lacking, he can be supplied through the force of divine mercy, which will forego even external signs [the intermediate cause] in order to bring grace to the heart. To the catechumen who has no one to pour water in his head, to the sinner who can find no one to absolve him, a loving God will accord, out of the desire of love, the grace whicc makes them His friends and children even without Baptism or actulal confession” (Dear Newlyweds, pg 13).
Keep in mind that if St. Alphonsus was right and baptism of desire is de fide, you can go to confession all you want but none of your sins are being forgiven. Why? Because if he was correct, you are in willful denial of a de fide dogma, which makes you a formal heretic - and heretics don’t receive pardon for their sins until they renounce their error.
But maybe St. Alphonsus, the Doctor of the Church, was wrong? I guess you will find out on judgment day - possibly the hard way.
Since St. Alphonsus, St. Augustine, St. Robert Bellarmine, St. Thomas (and others) were all declared a Doctors of the Church while affirming belief in Baptism of Desire, those who us who believe in Baptism of Desire have nothing to worry about. While those who deny it have much to worry about.
I accept the belief in baptism of desire. What I’m saying is this: I’m not so sure Pope Eugene accepted it.Your switching gears here. Stay with baptism of desire. Why don’t you respond to my last post with the quote from Pope Pius XII.
Do you consider Pope Pius XII to have been a faithless heretic and Antipope? If not why? Afterall, he explicitly taught baptism of desire which you believe to be a heresy. And, due to his education, he can’t be exused through ignorance. Therefore, if you are consistent, you should publicly declare Pope Pius XII to have been an Antipope.
OK, I understand. I think it is a mistake to draw that conclusion based on the quotes you have provided, since the quotes aren’t directly addressing baptism of desire.I accept the belief in baptism of desire. What I’m saying is this: I’m not so sure Pope Eugene accepted it.