D
ducinaltum79
Guest
This is turning out to be a really interesting discussion. Being a first-year student in a theology program, I unfortunately don’t yet have the understanding to parse these theological subtleties. Both IntegraCatholic and Excubitor have made some very interesting arguments. I especially appreciate the article from EWTN. I’ll be sure to print that one out and bring it to my priest tomorrow for our discussion. I’m still very confused about the issue of “intending to do what the Church does” and “intending to do what the Church intends,” as it bears on sacramental validity. But one thing Excubitor said does make sense to me: that if it were only a matter of performing the external rite accurately, why add a third requirement - intention - besides form and matter?
One thing I can clarify is that the baptism I received in the Assemblies of God church is what’s known as a “believer’s baptism.” IntregraCatholic commented: “No one does it merely through a social display. All Protestant sects know that this is commanded in the Gospel.” This isn’t, sadly, exactly true. My own church did indeed believe it was only a social display. An external expression, with no regenerating or even spiritual effect, of an inward conversion. They do not baptize unless one has already reached the age of reason, much like the Mormons. It’s much like their view of Communion. It is nothing more than an external, symbolic expression, communicating absolutely no spiritual effects/grace.
I recently viewed a list of various churches/ecclesial communities along with whether or not the diocese accepted their baptisms as valid. In the case of Assemblies of God (grouped under the “Pentecostal” umbrella), they stated that it was impossible to determine whether or not it was valid, because the church gives no details on how they are performed. In fact, if you look at that AoG official website, one thing you will immediately notice is that there is almost nothing said about baptism. Contrast this to “baptism in the spirit,” for which innumerable articles and statements can be found. All it says of water baptism is:
“The ordinance of baptism by immersion is commanded by the Scriptures. All who repent and believe on Christ as Saviour and Lord are to be baptized. Thus they declare to the world that they have died with Christ and that they also have been raised with Him to walk in newness of life.”
So, as you can see, the baptism is merely declarative. Whether or not that is sufficient for a valid baptism is beyond my knowledge. Of course, this is all still beside the point that even the form of my baptism is in question.
Anyway, I’m loving this discussion! Thanks for all the (name removed by moderator)ut. It’s very helpful!
In Christ,
Ron
One thing I can clarify is that the baptism I received in the Assemblies of God church is what’s known as a “believer’s baptism.” IntregraCatholic commented: “No one does it merely through a social display. All Protestant sects know that this is commanded in the Gospel.” This isn’t, sadly, exactly true. My own church did indeed believe it was only a social display. An external expression, with no regenerating or even spiritual effect, of an inward conversion. They do not baptize unless one has already reached the age of reason, much like the Mormons. It’s much like their view of Communion. It is nothing more than an external, symbolic expression, communicating absolutely no spiritual effects/grace.
I recently viewed a list of various churches/ecclesial communities along with whether or not the diocese accepted their baptisms as valid. In the case of Assemblies of God (grouped under the “Pentecostal” umbrella), they stated that it was impossible to determine whether or not it was valid, because the church gives no details on how they are performed. In fact, if you look at that AoG official website, one thing you will immediately notice is that there is almost nothing said about baptism. Contrast this to “baptism in the spirit,” for which innumerable articles and statements can be found. All it says of water baptism is:
“The ordinance of baptism by immersion is commanded by the Scriptures. All who repent and believe on Christ as Saviour and Lord are to be baptized. Thus they declare to the world that they have died with Christ and that they also have been raised with Him to walk in newness of life.”
So, as you can see, the baptism is merely declarative. Whether or not that is sufficient for a valid baptism is beyond my knowledge. Of course, this is all still beside the point that even the form of my baptism is in question.
Anyway, I’m loving this discussion! Thanks for all the (name removed by moderator)ut. It’s very helpful!
In Christ,
Ron
