Baptism of the Dead

[Shin]

There is often a confusion among people – that we deserve Heaven – we do not ‘deserve’ Heaven. Heaven is a gift. So, to not go to Heaven is not a matter of direct punishment for our personal misdeeds, it is a privilege that God may or may not give a soul, according to His mysterious will.

We do not start off, we are not conceived on the path to Heaven. We are conceived in a state separated from God, and if we die in that state, that is where we remain.

Let me be clear: we do not start off, conceived as saved and having gained salvation.

People who think that everyone is born innocent and destined for Heaven do not understand original sin and why we needed a Saviour (that the whole earth waited and groaned for).

We are what we are… that determines where we go. We can change or not… depending on many reasons. We go to the place what we are is fitting for, upon our death, whenever that may be.

And in the end, all is well, God has prepared for all these things.

I hope that answered your question. I cut/pasted something from a post on this subject I made just a little while ago earlier on a different thread.

‘Remember that to defer the baptism of infants for more than ten or eleven days is, according to the more common opinion of theologians, a mortal sin, except there is some extraordinary reason for it.’

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori

 

[corsair]

Five years ago when my 94 year old mother was in a hospital dying(in a coma). I asked the Catholic Deacon to come see her and to baptise her as it had never been done. Mom was a very timid soul and was afraid of everything including priests. The Deacon told me to “just trust God” and walked away. So with the encouragement of the duty nurse I Baptised Mom. And I’m glad I did. she was always fascinated with the Catholic church and was very supportive when I converted back in 1970. I have felt peace ever since her passing. Almost like I had helped her complete her desire.

She only lived about 24 hours after I Baptised her.

 

[Fr_Anglo]

My apolgies Shin if I’m seeming like a bit of a stickler here, especially because I do feel like you answered the ie part of my question, but I am interested to know in terms of the first part of my question if you think that God is limited to the sacraments in terms of His salvific work in the world. Is it the Catholic teaching that it’s imposible for God to save someone without using baptism (sorry for the crudeness of the term ‘using’)?

Take care
Fr Anglo

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Then it is irrelevant for them to be at their child’s baptism, and it is also irrelevant to have godparents.

That is correct technically, their presence and the Godparents are required for licitness only in solemn Baptism.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Not irrelevant but certainly not necessary to the validity. It’s true that the Church won’t baptize a healthy child if the parents don’t want the child baptized, but if the child is dying we are to baptize even if the parents don’t want it to happen.

If the child or in fact any person is near death and there is not specific objection form the parents or the parents are not present. You Baptize. If it is an adult you ask, if they are unable to respond in any way, you Baptize.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

So Shin, when you speak of “baptism’s necessity in regards to salvation” are you saying that you (and the Catholic church) would disagree with Kristie’s statement at the beginning of this thread that “God is not limited by the sacraments” in terms of His salvific work in the world - ie Are you saying that the Catholic teaching is that unbaptised babies are outside of God’s salvation?

Baptism is necessary for Salvatiom for those who can receive it. We trust to God’s mercy, those who are unable to receive Sacramental Baptism and hope that there might be a way known only to God to save them.

 

[thistle]

There is often a confusion among people – that we deserve Heaven – we do not ‘deserve’ Heaven. Heaven is a gift. So, to not go to Heaven is not a matter of direct punishment for our personal misdeeds, it is a privilege that God may or may not give a soul, according to His mysterious will.

We do not start off, we are not conceived on the path to Heaven. We are conceived in a state separated from God, and if we die in that state, that is where we remain.

Let me be clear: we do not start off, conceived as saved and having gained salvation.

People who think that everyone is born innocent and destined for Heaven do not understand original sin and why we needed a Saviour (that the whole earth waited and groaned for).

We are what we are… that determines where we go. We can change or not… depending on many reasons. We go to the place what we are is fitting for, upon our death, whenever that may be.

And in the end, all is well, God has prepared for all these things.

I hope that answered your question. I cut/pasted something from a post on this subject I made just a little while ago earlier on a different thread.

**'Remember that to defer the baptism of infants for more than ten or eleven days **is, according to the more common opinion of theologians, a mortal sin, except there is some extraordinary reason for it.'St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori

That is NOT the Church teaching.

Canon Law:

Can. 867 §1 Parents are obliged to see that their infants are baptised within the** first few weeks.** As soon as possible after the birth, indeed even before it, they are to approach the parish priest to ask for the sacrament for their child, and to be themselves duly prepared for it.

 

[Shin]

Can. 867 §1. Parents are obliged to take care that infants are baptized in the first few weeks; as soon as possible after the birth or even before it, they are to go to the pastor to request the sacrament for their child and to be prepared properly for it.

** §2. An infant in danger of death is to be baptized without delay.
**

I must also tell you that Canon law is not the same thing at all as moral law.

 

[Shin]

My apolgies Shin if I’m seeming like a bit of a stickler here, especially because I do feel like you answered the ie part of my question, but I am interested to know in terms of the first part of my question if you think that God is limited to the sacraments in terms of His salvific work in the world. Is it the Catholic teaching that it’s imposible for God to save someone without using baptism (sorry for the crudeness of the term ‘using’)?

Take care
Fr Anglo

Generally one does not say something is ‘impossible’ per se, for God, but, if He says He will only do something a certain way, and does not reveal any other way for it to be done. . and dogma, doctrine and tradition does not establish any other way. .

Well, it is for the authorities and theologians floating new hypotheses to justify and establish reasons for hope of something different.

I don’t want criticize the way certain personal and pet theories have appeared in official documents in the past few decades but, as I said, it is for the people floating them to establish them or not. If they do not even make an effort to connect point A. to point B. which they profess (and appears to be impossible)…

They do run the risk of appearing to cater to their personal preferences, human opinions at the expense of revelation, etc. Telling people what they want to hear, rather than what is needed.

I think that there will be some revisions and corrections as there have been in the past or there will have to be some surprising further clarifications and documentation coming out to justify some of the trends taken recently.

If God says, ‘This is the only way’ It’s something to say, ‘He isn’t bound by that’ and moreover who is going to tell anyone to count on it?

We believe in miracles… sometimes God won’t perform even then because He has said He will only do things a certain way… And sometimes He will, because it’s within His plan… But they are hardly regular, expected results.

I’m just a layman, so, it’s difficult for me when there’s confusion and lack of explanation from up top. I just go back to what the solid consensus has been.

 

[mark_a]

Personally it would depend on when the child seemed to have died. If i was there up to 20 minutes after the child was declared clinically dead, I would conditionally Baptize. If the parents insisted, I have read that the Church does not define exactly when the soul leaves the body.

In the book “Pontiff”, it was stated that JPI was given the sacrament of the sick hours after he died.

I happen to know of a situation where a woman was baptised at her funeral in her coffin in a Catholic Church. I’ve been curious about that since I learned of it.

Any thoughts?

 

[FrDavid96]

In the book “Pontiff”, it was stated that JPI was given the sacrament of the sick hours after he died.

I happen to know of a situation where a woman was baptised at her funeral in her coffin in a Catholic Church. I’ve been curious about that since I learned of it.

Any thoughts?

We don’t know when the soul leaves the body. So we really can’t say whether or not he was alive in the spiritual sense, even though we might know that from a purely medical perspective, his body had already stopped functioning beyond any possibility of resuscitation or recovery. I would suppose that upon finding the Pope dead (or perhaps I should say “presumed dead”), the first thing someone did was to summon a priest for the Sacraments, and only later learned that he had been medically dead for some hours. I could be wrong (wasn’t there!) but given the context, that seems pretty safe.

On the other hand, in the case of the woman in the coffin, if the body had been embalmed (which is likely at least in Western culture), it is indeed safe to say that the body was so far from being alive that she was dead both spiritually and medically. Once the body has begun to decay, there is no longer any doubt that the person is completely dead. So in that case, there was no baptism.

 

[mark_a]

We don’t know when the soul leaves the body. So we really can’t say whether or not he was alive in the spiritual sense, even though we might know that from a purely medical perspective, his body had already stopped functioning beyond any possibility of resuscitation or recovery. I would suppose that upon finding the Pope dead (or perhaps I should say “presumed dead”), the first thing someone did was to summon a priest for the Sacraments, and only later learned that he had been medically dead for some hours. I could be wrong (wasn’t there!) but given the context, that seems pretty safe.

On the other hand, in the case of the woman in the coffin, if the body had been embalmed (which is likely at least in Western culture), it is indeed safe to say that the body was so far from being alive that she was dead both spiritually and medically. Once the body has begun to decay, there is no longer any doubt that the person is completely dead. So in that case, there was no baptism.

Thank you Father.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

In the book “Pontiff”, it was stated that JPI was given the sacrament of the sick hours after he died.

I happen to know of a situation where a woman was baptised at her funeral in her coffin in a Catholic Church. I’ve been curious about that since I learned of it.

Any thoughts?

You actually witnessed them open the coffin and pour water on the body? Or did you just see them sprinkle the coffin with holy water which is part of the Funeral Rite recalling her Baptism.

 

[Through_Him]

Five years ago when my 94 year old mother was in a hospital dying(in a coma). I asked the Catholic Deacon to come see her and to baptise her as it had never been done. Mom was a very timid soul and was afraid of everything including priests. The Deacon told me to “just trust God” and walked away. So with the encouragement of the duty nurse I Baptised Mom. And I’m glad I did. she was always fascinated with the Catholic church and was very supportive when I converted back in 1970. I have felt peace ever since her passing. Almost like I had helped her complete her desire.

She only lived about 24 hours after I Baptised her.

This is an inspiring story. I pray you were there. My mom is ill and aged and not as able to get out as much. So I try to repeat things we do from church with her. I should renew baptismal vows on occasion with her as Father does at church once during a baptism. I pray with her the Our Father and hold hands so she has that touching and unity in prayer. My dad is an atheist and no one else in the family has come back. I want her to pass with the thoughts of prayer and peace on her mind. I was told once that deacons don’t hear confessions or baptize. May be I am wrong about this.

 

[kristie_m]

. I was told once that deacons don’t hear confessions or baptize. May be I am wrong about this.

Deacons may baptize, give homilies and witness Catholic weddings (the couple administers the sacrament to one another). All other “priestly” functions can only be done by an ordained priest.