Baptism of the Lord and then some

[rondirect]

Why should this be so confusing? Documentation states it, the ORDO states it: The Christmas season lasts from Christmas Eve through the Baptism of the Lord. Then I look at the Lectionary and see “The Baptism of the Lord or The First Sunday in Ordinary Time” for that day’s readings. So which is it and why does the Lectionary contradict what is stated elsewhere? Is it an older Lectionary (2000)?
That’s just one issue! Is there a new lectionary that omits “Mass at Midnight” as a title and calls as it is now, “Mass During the Night?” Perhaps a new one will also correct what I stated above, not to mention “Epiphany” for January 6 only!
Thirdly, for Holy Family and Baptism, some resources including our Lectionary and missals contradict each other as which is the first choice readings vs. the alternate readings, whereas these two feasts are the same for ABC cycles, except for year C where there is an alternate choice. But different resources have an order preference as to what readings are the suggested ones and which are alternates: for year C or for years ABC. In order to avert confusion, I have to mark up our Lectionary to conform to the missal’s first set of readings and hope that all priests conform and I then sing the correct Psalm! What do you do?

 

[SMHW]

Why should this be so confusing? Documentation states it, the ORDO states it: The Christmas season lasts from Christmas Eve through the Baptism of the Lord. Then I look at the Lectionary and see “The Baptism of the Lord or The First Sunday in Ordinary Time” for that day’s readings. So which is it and why does the Lectionary contradict what is stated elsewhere? Is it an older Lectionary (2000)?
That’s just one issue! Is there a new lectionary that omits “Mass at Midnight” as a title and calls as it is now, “Mass During the Night?” Perhaps a new one will also correct what I stated above, not to mention “Epiphany” for January 6 only!
Thirdly, for Holy Family and Baptism, some resources including our Lectionary and missals contradict each other as which is the first choice readings vs. the alternate readings, whereas these two feasts are the same for ABC cycles, except for year C where there is an alternate choice. But different resources have an order preference as to what readings are the suggested ones and which are alternates: for year C or for years ABC. In order to avert confusion, I have to mark up our Lectionary to conform to the missal’s first set of readings and hope that all priests conform and I then sing the correct Psalm! What do you do?

I’m not sure about every one of the contradictions that you mention. But it seems as if your lectionary does not include all of the latest updates to the English translation of the Roman Missal. That makes sense since you say it was published in 2000.

 

[Cor_ad_Cor]

The lectionary was last revised before the English translation of the Roman Missal, 3rd edition (which we have used since Advent 2011). So, there may be some mis-match issues. I haven’t explored all of those personally.

Regarding the Baptism of the Lord/First Sunday of O.T., it was explained to me that the Church allows a bit of overlap of liturgical seasons here, and the liturgical calendar doesn’t necessarily need 100% clearly defined boundaries between every date or season. The Baptism of the Lord, traditionally, was a separate feast from the Christmas season - but liturgically, it fits (white vestments, etc.). There is no 1st Sunday of O.T. on most calendars, but the Baptism replaces it (or IS it, according to the lectionary).

The same thing happens on other days as well… When does Triduum begin and end? That one’s a little more clear-cut, but some will argue about Triduum overlapping with Easter or Holy Thursday.

 

[rondirect]

I’m not sure about every one of the contradictions that you mention. But it seems as if your lectionary does not include all of the latest updates to the English translation of the Roman Missal. That makes sense since you say it was published in 2000.

Thanks for your response. To further the confusion, I use the OCP planning guide which seems to highlight the alternate readings for year C only and not ABC (after the “or” in our WLP missal and what is on the USCCB site). It might not have the latest updates, but I can say this: the readings from the lectionary are exact to the missal no matter which ones they are. I like consistency and this stuff drives me nuts. When planning the Psalms, I used the first set in our missal which is the alternate set in our lectionary. Oh well.

 

[1ke]

Why should this be so confusing? Documentation states it, the ORDO states it: The Christmas season lasts from Christmas Eve through the Baptism of the Lord. Then I look at the Lectionary and see “The Baptism of the Lord or The First Sunday in Ordinary Time” for that day’s readings. So which is it and why does the Lectionary contradict what is stated elsewhere? Is it an older Lectionary (2000)?
That’s just one issue! Is there a new lectionary that omits “Mass at Midnight” as a title and calls as it is now, “Mass During the Night?” Perhaps a new one will also correct what I stated above, not to mention “Epiphany” for January 6 only!
Thirdly, for Holy Family and Baptism, some resources including our Lectionary and missals contradict each other as which is the first choice readings vs. the alternate readings, whereas these two feasts are the same for ABC cycles, except for year C where there is an alternate choice. But different resources have an order preference as to what readings are the suggested ones and which are alternates: for year C or for years ABC. In order to avert confusion, I have to mark up our Lectionary to conform to the missal’s first set of readings and hope that all priests conform and I then sing the correct Psalm! What do you do?

The US Lectionary of the Missal was last revised in 2002. The 2002 Lectionary is the current lectionary and should be used. There are currently no active work on a new version of the Lectionary.

So, if you have one published in 2000 it would be using the bible translation from 1970 which is no longer allowed. The Lectionary is 4 volumes, so talk with your pastor about purchasing the most up to date version.

The Roman Missal published in 2011 does not contain a “new” Lectionary or “new” readings.

 

[rondirect]

The lectionary was last revised before the English translation of the Roman Missal, 3rd edition (which we have used since Advent 2011). So, there may be some mis-match issues. I haven’t explored all of those personally.

Regarding the Baptism of the Lord/First Sunday of O.T., it was explained to me that the Church allows a bit of overlap of liturgical seasons here, and the liturgical calendar doesn’t necessarily need 100% clearly defined boundaries between every date or season. The Baptism of the Lord, traditionally, was a separate feast from the Christmas season - but liturgically, it fits (white vestments, etc.). There is no 1st Sunday of O.T. on most calendars, but the Baptism replaces it (or IS it, according to the lectionary).

The same thing happens on other days as well… When does Triduum begin and end? That one’s a little more clear-cut, but some will argue about Triduum overlapping with Easter or Holy Thursday.

Thanks. I’ll go with the ORDO here which also contradicts what our lectionary has as the first set of readings and the alternate “or.” Should have mentioned that is my other response. The ORDO states that the Christmas Season runs through Baptism and Ordinary Time starts after that Sunday. However, the OCP planning guide suggests no Christmas related songs. I am still going to select non-Christmas songs for this mass and close with “Joy to the World” anyway and announce the reason before doing so. It bookends the Christmas Season in my opinion.
Triduum: Again, I have always referred to the ORDO for direction which states that The Triduum starts with the downbeat of the Opening Song on Holy Thrusday Mass of the Lord’s Supper and runs through Easter Sunday (to include Easter Sunday masses). Counting the days, it’s 4, not 3, so I did some research. What I found in the past was that we follow the Jewish custom of sundown to sundown for the Easter Triduum. Therefore, HT (starting in the evening) through GF is one day, GF through EV is the second day, and EV through ES is the third day. I think that we have to realize that Holy Thursday during the day is still a Holy Week Lenten day until we start the Evening Mass. Whew!

 

[rondirect]

The US Lectionary of the Missal was last revised in 2002. The 2002 Lectionary is the current lectionary and should be used. There are currently no active work on a new version of the Lectionary.

So, if you have one published in 2000 it would be using the bible translation from 1970 which is no longer allowed. The Lectionary is 4 volumes, so talk with your pastor about purchasing the most up to date version.

The Roman Missal published in 2011 does not contain a “new” Lectionary or “new” readings.

Thank you. That was what I was looking for. I was trying to identify the latest lectionary on the web but got confused and did read that there is no active work on a new one, so I guess even in the new 2002 version, Mass During The Night is still “Midnight Mass!” Anyway, I wonder if my pastor will go for it, since the readings are still accurate to the missal. Furthermore, do you know if the new version uses the ABC readings first for HF and Baptism and alternate for year C only? If not, I’m in the same boat as before. What are the changes from 2000 to 2002? Thank you sticky notes!

 

[1ke]

Thank you. That was what I was looking for. I was trying to identify the latest lectionary on the web but got confused and did read that there is no active work on a new one, so I guess even in the new 2002 version, Mass During The Night is still “Midnight Mass!” Anyway, I wonder if my pastor will go for it, since the readings are still accurate to the missal. Furthermore, do you know if the new version uses the ABC readings first for HF and Baptism and alternate for year C only? If not, I’m in the same boat as before.

If you have a 2000 version, you might have something wonky.

I don’t know, ours doesn’t have the problem you are describing. We have the 2002 lectionary.

The liturgical calendar hasn’t changed. It was amended during JPII’s pontificate.

The readings are:

usccb.org/about/divine-worship/liturgical-calendar/upload/2016cal.pdf

What are the changes from 2000 to 2002? Thank you sticky notes!

It’s the bible translation that was updated. It’s the New American Bible. The old one had a 1970 translation.

 

[Gorgias]

I guess even in the new 2002 version, Mass During The Night is still “Midnight Mass!”

Not precisely. The Masses celebrated are the “Vigil”, “Mass at Night”, “Mass at Dawn”, and “Mass during the Day.” A midnight Mass, technically speaking is a “Mass at Night” (not the other way around).

(We’re so used to the notion of a ‘midnight Mass’ that we think that’s what we’re attending. Really, what we’re attending is a “Mass at Night” that happens to be scheduled for 12am.)

Anyway, I wonder if my pastor will go for it, since the readings are still accurate to the missal.

The celebrant is permitted the freedom to choose any of the readings from the various Masses at any of the Masses he celebrates on Christmas, so your celebrant’s choice is appropriate, regardless which Christmas Mass it belongs to. What he must do, however, is celebrate the proper parts of the Mass from the appropriate texts (e.g., he may proclaim the readings from the Vigil at the 11am Mass on Christmas, but he cannot pray the Collect from the ‘Mass at Night’ at that Mass). Know what I mean?

 

[rondirect]

If you have a 2000 version, you might have something wonky.

I don’t know, ours doesn’t have the problem you are describing. We have the 2002 lectionary.

The liturgical calendar hasn’t changed. It was amended during JPII’s pontificate.

The readings are:

usccb.org/about/divine-worship/liturgical-calendar/upload/2016cal.pdf

Thanks again. That’s what I saw when looking at the USCCB site. The “wonky” thing about year C in our 2000 Lectionary is that (as I had mentioned before…sorry for the repeat) the alternate C year only readings are the FIRST set in the lectionary and the ABC come next, confusing the lector and the priest (if not using the Book of Gospels) has to turn a page BACK for the Gospel, and the missal has the ABC readings first as stated in the link you sent me and the OCP planning guide follows the old lectionary!!!
If you get a chance, before I buy, can you check the 2002 lectionary and for HF, is the first set for ABC starting with Sirach? That would match our missals perfectly. Who is the publisher?

It’s the bible translation that was updated. It’s the New American Bible. The old one had a 1970 translation.

 

[InThePew]

Documentation states it, the ORDO states it: The Christmas season lasts from Christmas Eve through the Baptism of the Lord. Then I look at the Lectionary and see “The Baptism of the Lord or The First Sunday in Ordinary Time” for that day’s readings. So which is it and why does the Lectionary contradict what is stated elsewhere? Is it an older Lectionary (2000)?

Christmas Time runs from First Vespers (Evening Prayer I) of the Nativity of the Lord up to and including the Sunday after Epiphany or after January 6. In some places, where it’s not a Holy Day of Obligation, the Feast of the Epiphany is celebrated on the first Sunday after 1 January rather than on 6 January. Where this is the case, the Bpatism of the Lord is celebrated on the following Sunday. However, the Epiphany falls on the 7th or 8th of January then the Baptism of the Lord is celebrated on the following Monday and thus there’s a First Sunday in Ordinary Time.

That’s just one issue! Is there a new lectionary that omits “Mass at Midnight” as a title and calls as it is now, “Mass During the Night?” Perhaps a new one will also correct what I stated above, not to mention “Epiphany” for January 6 only!

As others have said, properly speaking it’s called Mass during the Night rather than Midnight Mass (in recent year’s it’s been celebrated at 10pm in St Peter’s Basilica).

Thirdly, for Holy Family and Baptism, some resources including our Lectionary and missals contradict each other as which is the first choice readings vs. the alternate readings, whereas these two feasts are the same for ABC cycles, except for year C where there is an alternate choice. But different resources have an order preference as to what readings are the suggested ones and which are alternates: for year C or for years ABC. In order to avert confusion, I have to mark up our Lectionary to conform to the missal’s first set of readings and hope that all priests conform and I then sing the correct Psalm! What do you do?

It’s up to the celebrating priest to decide which readings to use but there’s no real difference between the alternate readings - it’s all really a matter of preference which is probably why the order is different.

 

[marytk]

In one practical way the Baptism of the Lord is the first Sunday of Ordnary time even if we do not celebrate it as thus because the next day is Monday of the first week of ordinary time.

 

[OraLabora]

Normally, in OT the Sunday collect carries over to the weekdays, as do the propers of the Mass in the Roman Gradual, on days without memorials. The Baptism of the Lord is still part of Christmas season and the collect and chants from the “missing” first Sunday in OT are used in the subsequent week.

An analogous situation happens with the “34th Sunday in OT” which in fact is the feast of Christ the King, with the collect and chants on the superseded Sunday carried over to the weekdays.

 

[rondirect]

Not precisely. The Masses celebrated are the “Vigil”, “Mass at Night”, “Mass at Dawn”, and “Mass during the Day.” A midnight Mass, technically speaking is a “Mass at Night” (not the other way around).

(We’re so used to the notion of a ‘midnight Mass’ that we think that’s what we’re attending. Really, what we’re attending is a “Mass at Night” that happens to be scheduled for 12am.)

The celebrant is permitted the freedom to choose any of the readings from the various Masses at any of the Masses he celebrates on Christmas, so your celebrant’s choice is appropriate, regardless which Christmas Mass it belongs to. What he must do, however, is celebrate the proper parts of the Mass from the appropriate texts (e.g., he may proclaim the readings from the Vigil at the 11am Mass on Christmas, but he cannot pray the Collect from the ‘Mass at Night’ at that Mass). Know what I mean?

Gorgias, I know this. Your answer is not what I was referring too. First, I know the new terminology of “Mass During the Night” vs. “Midnight Mass.” My inquiry was that since this change was recently made, does the latest 2002 lectionary still TITLE the readings for the Mass.Night as Midnight Mass as the 2000 lectionary does?
Secondly, the choice of readings was referring to Holy Family and Baptism of the Lord in year C, not the Christmas readings, which I know is the presider’s choice…which I really do not believe should be a choice. The readings, IMO, should represent the time frame in which they are proclaimed based on the choice of readings. Reading Day readings during the vigil and saying “today is born” is questionable.

 

[rondirect]

Christmas Time runs from First Vespers (Evening Prayer I) of the Nativity of the Lord up to and including the Sunday after Epiphany or after January 6. In some places, where it’s not a Holy Day of Obligation, the Feast of the Epiphany is celebrated on the first Sunday after 1 January rather than on 6 January. Where this is the case, the Bpatism of the Lord is celebrated on the following Sunday. However, the Epiphany falls on the 7th or 8th of January then the Baptism of the Lord is celebrated on the following Monday and thus there’s a First Sunday in Ordinary Time.

As others have said, properly speaking it’s called Mass during the Night rather than Midnight Mass (in recent year’s it’s been celebrated at 10pm in St Peter’s Basilica).

It’s up to the celebrating priest to decide which readings to use but there’s no real difference between the alternate readings - it’s all really a matter of preference which is probably why the order is different.

*1. This does not answer my question. Our Ordo always states that the Christmas Season lasts through the Baptism of the Lord. However, my question was: why does our Lectionary then say, “Baptism of the Lord or the First Sunday in OT?”
*
*2. Agreed. Again, I know about the MM vs. MDTN thing. *

*3. But, my question referred to different resources and Lectionaries using the ABC as the first choice vs. others using the alternate C as the first choice.
*

 

[InThePew]

*1. This does not answer my question. Our Ordo always states that the Christmas Season lasts through the Baptism of the Lord. However, my question was: why does our Lectionary then say, “Baptism of the Lord or the First Sunday in OT?”
*

Lectionaries are intended to cover more than one diocese or region and so they have to make allowances for the feast of the Epiphany being a Holy Day of Obligation in some places but not others. In other words, some places will celebrate the Baptism of the Lord on a Sunday meaning that, in those places, there will be no First Sunday in OT. Others however, will celebrate the 1st Sunday in OT and then the Baptism of the Lord the following day.

*But, my question referred to different resources and Lectionaries using the ABC as the first choice vs. others using the alternate C as the first choice.
*

The alternatives are set out in no particular order - each one is as good as the next so it’s understandable that some lectionaries or resources might list the alternatives in a different order.

 

[rondirect]

Lectionaries are intended to cover more than one diocese or region and so they have to make allowances for the feast of the Epiphany being a Holy Day of Obligation in some places but not others. In other words, some places will celebrate the Baptism of the Lord on a Sunday meaning that, in those places, there will be no First Sunday in OT. Others however, will celebrate the 1st Sunday in OT and then the Baptism of the Lord the following day.

The alternatives are set out in no particular order - each one is as good as the next so it’s understandable that some lectionaries or resources might list the alternatives in a different order.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. The first makes sense. I’m a creature of order and using USA resources that show differences in order disturbes me, especially during my planning process.

 

[InThePew]

Thanks for taking the time to respond. The first makes sense. I’m a creature of order and using USA resources that show differences in order disturbes me, especially during my planning process.

No worries - these things are sent to try us and that they do!

 

[rondirect]

No worries - these things are sent to try us and that they do!

So true. Nonetheless, it bothers me. You would think after 33 years, I’d be used to it! Lol

 

[marytk]

Normally, in OT the Sunday collect carries over to the weekdays, as do the propers of the Mass in the Roman Gradual, on days without memorials. The Baptism of the Lord is still part of Christmas season and the collect and chants from the “missing” first Sunday in OT are used in the subsequent week.

An analogous situation happens with the “34th Sunday in OT” which in fact is the feast of Christ the King, with the collect and chants on the superseded Sunday carried over to the weekdays.

That is a good way to think of it. SO for the Baptism of the Lord it is the first Sunday in Ordinary time but The Feast outranks that.