"Baptism of the Spirit"

[Mammoths]

1302 It is evident from its celebration that the effect of the sacrament of Confirmation is the special outpouring of the Holy Spirit as once granted to the apostles on the day of Pentecost.
-CCC

I have observed that Pentecostal denominations celebrate a special baptism of the Spirit which accompanies a manefestation which may be tongues or some other sign which often includes a personal revolution in character.

I wonder if catholic confirmation is associated with a perceivable experience of Devine influence. For example, at Pentecost and after the disciples perceived tongues of fire, boldness, miraculous signs.

It would seem that if there is substantial anointing beyond the outward sign of oil and laying on of hands that a continued supernatural inspiration to virtuous power, love, and a sound mind would become the common catholic experience. I wonder, post ceremony what is the experience personally?

 

[Fiasco]

I wonder, post ceremony what is the experience personally?

There’s no sudden personal experience.
It’s safest to allow the Holy Spirit to work silently within our souls, rather than to expect some immediate experience. “Signs and wonders” can be caused by emotions which are not to be trusted. They can be caused by something more deadly.
God is a God of level- headedness and self-control.

Sorry, but i don’t go along with some aspects of the Charismatic movement or Pentecostalism.

Now for the reaction!

 

[Mammoths]

I would be open to hearing an experience that transcends emotion. I want to know if there is a form of godliness that has real power to observably transform. If the substance of the sacraments is actual as in baptism, a participation in the death and resurrection of Jesus, if confirmation is an actual anointing of the Holy Spirit, if the Eucharist is the actual assimilation of the life of Christ through his body, show me the power. If Christians “aren’t perfect just forgiven,” where is the RESCUE!

 

[MaryT777]

…interesting question. Looking forward to the answer myself.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Divine, not devine.

St Paul speaks of the gifts of The Holy Spirit. Read Corinthians

 

[Fiasco]

I would be open to hearing an experience that transcends emotion. I want to know if there is a form of godliness that has real power to observably transform. If the substance of the sacraments is actual as in baptism, a participation in the death and resurrection of Jesus, if confirmation is an actual anointing of the Holy Spirit, if the Eucharist is the actual assimilation of the life of Christ through his body, show me the power.

For the vast majority of us, attaining Heaven is a lifelong struggle. It’s a **gradual **thing. Very seldom does a person experience some sort of blinding flash. We just, or should, keep at it. After a time (long or short), we should be able to look back, and see an upward movement in our lives, nothing necessarily dramatic.

Baptism gives the spirit grace, a share of the life of God, Himself. He gives us all the grace we need, but we have to cooperate with His grace.
Remember, all of this is at a spiritual level, silent.

If Christians "aren’t perfect just forgiven," where is the RESCUE!

That’s one of the heresies preached by Luther, that a person is declared by God to be justified for salvation, even though he’s not: A “dung hill covered in snow” was one of Luther’s sayings.
Scripture says that nothing impure/defiled will enter Heaven, and “unless you’re perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect…” That’s just from memory, without looking up chapter and verse.
So, we have to become pure, not to just be declared pure. Penance/reparation.
Grace>>>Faith>>>Good works.

“Man is saved by Faith alone” is heresy.
Man is saved by** GRACE** alone.

 

[Mammoths]

Divine, not devine.

St Paul speaks of the gifts of The Holy Spirit. Read Corinthians

I am familiar with the biblical account. Looking for modern day reality.

Did Jesus die so we could be as nice as thumper rabbit at church socials et cetera?

Example:
Jim is a nice guy. He is always polite and respectful in his behavior unless pushed to extraordinary lengths. He is kind and affectionate to his wife of 30 years and the two always seem to be in love. Jim demonstrates fantastic self control of appetites usually although a few times a year he loses count of his drinks but nothing awful comes of it. He never cheated on his wife. He is generous with his employees. He is enthusiastically charitable. His children are all a credit to his legacy.

At long last he gets baptized, confirmed at the age of 55. How would his character be transformed?

Jake is a cradle catholic. At age 8 he is confirmed. He attends mass several times a year but he always goes to confession the day before and receives the Eucharist. In his 20’s he starts playing the field and by twenty-five he has carnal knowledge of at least three woman he never intends to marry. He feels bad about it, but he just can’t seem to get control of his appetites. Why isn’t he a better example of great Christianity on mission for God?

These are fictions and I don’t know if they are realistic, but I hope it illuminates the question. I for one can relate to both Jim and Jake on different points. I haven’t been confirmed though.

 

[Mammoths]

For the vast majority of us, attaining Heaven is a lifelong struggle. It’s a **gradual **thing. Very seldom does a person experience some sort of blinding flash. We just, or should, keep at it. After a time (long or short), we should be able to look back, and see an upward movement in our lives, nothing necessarily dramatic.

Baptism gives the spirit grace, a share of the life of God, Himself. He gives us all the grace we need, but we have to cooperate with His grace.
Remember, all of this is at a spiritual level, silent.

That’s one of the heresies preached by Luther, that a person is declared by God to be justified for salvation, even though he’s not: A “dung hill covered in snow” was one of Luther’s sayings.
Scripture says that nothing impure/defiled will enter Heaven, and “unless you’re perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect…” That’s just from memory, without looking up chapter and verse.
So, we have to become pure, not to just be declared pure. Penance/reparation.
Grace>>>Faith>>>Good works.

“Man is saved by Faith alone” is heresy.
Man is saved by** GRACE** alone.

But we are talking about Devine, er, divine :tiphat: intervention via sacramental graces from the Fear of Abraham. I acknowledge that it seems a bit like divination to go chasing manipulative ecstatic emotional stage acts. And yah discipleship is a lifelong pursuit. But help from omnipotent God seems a majestic proposition–one that ought to dramatically transform us beyond our wildest dreams if it’s true. So if I get confirmed, will it change the game for me? Will I become better than Jim by as far as immortality is from mortality? Would I become truly and divinely good in thought, word, deed, passion?

 

[Viki63]

It’s possible.
I don’t think the disciples were “transformed beyond their wildest dreams,” after Pentecost, however. They did become bold enough to proclaim the good news.
In my life, God has worked some amazing things, including deliverance, but not in connection with formal sacraments. But he works differently in different people’s lives.

IMHO, we can become as close to God as we desire to be. In my case, fear of the unknown sometimes holds me back.

But if you are of age to be confirmed, I would recommend it.

.

 

[Fiasco]

This post took so long to type out, it’s probably better to leave it just as it is.
It was meant to answer your preceding one concerning Jim and Jake.

I am familiar with the biblical account. Looking for modern day reality.

Did Jesus die so we could be as nice as thumper rabbit at church socials et cetera?

Jesus died to atone for the sin of Adam, and for our sins. By His suffering, death and resurrection, we are redeemed, but NOT saved. That happens at the moment we die.

Example: …

… Why isn’t he a better example of great Christianity on mission for God?

God gives us free will, and doesn’t force anyone to do His will. What we do with His gift of grace is up to us. If we refuse to cooperate with Him, and His promptings, then where we end up is our own doing.

In practice, there’s nothing to prevent a particular unbaptised atheist from being better than a particular baptised person. The baptised person may reject God’s gift. Again, misuse of free will. Throughout history, there have been unbelievable monsters who were baptised when babies or at least young. Mother Teresa wasn’t one of them: she said she did what she did “out of love for Christ”. She was Christlike, and we should all be like that when the opportunity arises.

God doesn’t will to be loved and worshipprd by ants or robots. He can only prompt, and our ultimate choice has to be made freely.

After baptism, we’re still subject to the effects of Original Sin (caused by Adam). Concupiscence is the tendency to be drawn to sin.
The three broard temptations are: the world, the flesh and the devil.

After baptism, Jim probably wouldn’t** FEEL** any different, but his life would now have meaning that it hadn’t had.

Feelings, or expected feelings, have to be left out of it.
And God’s grace can be lost, thrown away, as with your second example.

A theologian i am not!

 

[Roseeurekacross]

I am familiar with the biblical account. Looking for modern day reality.

Did Jesus die so we could be as nice as thumper rabbit at church socials et cetera

♧♧♧♧♧♧♧
I dont understand that question. I know Jesus Christ was crucified, died and rose again because all sinners crucified Him.
He died to redeem us of our sins. You could say God wasnt very impressed with His creatures. We had, and still do have, a hard time keeping the 10 Commandments. It was part of God’s plan for our salvation.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a4p2.htm

Someone said to me recently, even if there was only one person on earth, Jesus still ransomed himself as a sacrificial lamb for that person’s sins and salvation. Is that person one of the ‘many’? Only God can know that.
♧♧♧♧♧♧♧

Example:
Jim is a nice guy. He is always polite and respectful in his behavior unless pushed to extraordinary lengths. He is kind and affectionate to his wife of 30 years and the two always seem to be in love. Jim demonstrates fantastic self control of appetites usually although a few times a year he loses count of his drinks but nothing awful comes of it. He never cheated on his wife. He is generous with his employees. He is enthusiastically charitable. His children are all a credit to his legacy.

At long last he gets baptized, confirmed at the age of 55. How would his character be transformed?

♧♧♧♧♧♧
Good on Jim! With luck it is the beginning of an amazing journey home for Jim. His spiritual character, in its infancy, hopefully will grow. One of the Saints talks about 7 levels of prayer. Starting external, and finally a true internal prayer that is a communication between the soul and God, its creator.
♧♧♧♧♧♧♧

Jake is a cradle catholic. At age 8 he is confirmed. He attends mass several times a year but he always goes to confession the day before and receives the Eucharist. In his 20’s he starts playing the field and by twenty-five he has carnal knowledge of at least three woman he never intends to marry. He feels bad about it, but he just can’t seem to get control of his appetites. Why isn’t he a better example of great Christianity on mission for God?

♧♧♧♧♧♧♧
we all struggle. We are all sinners. How do we know which example God will consider more just, if indeed He weighs them both on one scales.
♧♧♧♧♧♧♧

These are fictions and I don’t know if they are realistic, but I hope it illuminates the question. I for one can relate to both Jim and Jake on different points. I haven’t been confirmed though.

It seems you should embark on your own journey, then come tell us what it is like
Are you going to be baptised and confirmed?

 

[Mammoths]

It’s possible.
I don’t think the disciples were “transformed beyond their wildest dreams,” after Pentecost, however. They did become bold enough to proclaim the good news.
In my life, God has worked some amazing things, including deliverance, but not in connection with formal sacraments. But he works differently in different people’s lives.

IMHO, we can become as close to God as we desire to be. In my case, fear of the unknown sometimes holds me back.

But if you are of age to be confirmed, I would recommend it.

.

Thanks for the recommendation. I am 38 raised evangelical non-denominational. So still sorting things out as to joining the RCC. This thread is part of that endeavor. I have had some amazing subjective experience with Christ. Sometimes I find that where I beg to differ with my peers, the RC says the same as I have for decades.

 

[Mammoths]

This post took so long to type out, it’s probably better to leave it just as it is.
It was meant to answer your preceding one concerning Jim and Jake.

Jesus died to atone for the sin of Adam, and for our sins. By His suffering, death and resurrection, we are redeemed, but NOT saved. That happens at the moment we die.

God gives us free will, and doesn’t force anyone to do His will. What we do with His gift of grace is up to us. If we refuse to cooperate with Him, and His promptings, then where we end up is our own doing.

In practice, there’s nothing to prevent a particular unbaptised atheist from being better than a particular baptised person. The baptised person may reject God’s gift. Again, misuse of free will. Throughout history, there have been unbelievable monsters who were baptised when babies or at least young. Mother Teresa wasn’t one of them: she said she did what she did “out of love for Christ”. She was Christlike, and we should all be like that when the opportunity arises.

God doesn’t will to be loved and worshipprd by ants or robots. He can only prompt, and our ultimate choice has to be made freely.

After baptism, we’re still subject to the effects of Original Sin (caused by Adam). Concupiscence is the tendency to be drawn to sin.
The three broard temptations are: the world, the flesh and the devil.

After baptism, Jim probably wouldn’t** FEEL** any different, but his life would now have meaning that it hadn’t had.

Feelings, or expected feelings, have to be left out of it.
And God’s grace can be lost, thrown away, as with your second example.

A theologian i am not!

So in theory grace can be despised ignore and wasted or through devoted cooperation can result in uncommon holiness. But, it’s not magic and won’t change the emotional aspect of how I experience temptation and testing. How then do graces help?

 

[Mammoths]

It seems you should embark on your own journey, then come tell us what it is like
Are you going to be baptised and confirmed?

Baptized at 14 by a non catholic leader. Not sure if it counts yet based on his view of the trinity. Never confirmed anywhere. I recently watched the confirmation episode of the Bible and the sacraments from the Saint Paul institute. I noticed some similarities between the evangelical “baptism of the Spirit” and the catholic confirmation. “You shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you and you shall be my witnesses in Jerusalem, Jude’s, and throughout the whole earth.” Acts 1

 

[Vico]

1302 It is evident from its celebration that the effect of the sacrament of Confirmation is the special outpouring of the Holy Spirit as once granted to the apostles on the day of Pentecost.
-CCC

I have observed that Pentecostal denominations celebrate a special baptism of the Spirit which accompanies a manefestation which may be tongues or some other sign which often includes a personal revolution in character.

I wonder if catholic confirmation is associated with a perceivable experience of Devine influence. For example, at Pentecost and after the disciples perceived tongues of fire, boldness, miraculous signs.

It would seem that if there is substantial anointing beyond the outward sign of oil and laying on of hands that a continued supernatural inspiration to virtuous power, love, and a sound mind would become the common catholic experience. I wonder, post ceremony what is the experience personally?

The Orthodox theologian Olivier Clément is quoted on the site www.vatican.va on baptism of spirit:

In the Spirit, the intellect is united to the “heart”: then a “sensibility” is aroused which is not sentimental but ontological, the “sensibility of the Spirit”, that is to say, the ability to “feel God beyond all and in all”.

“Baptism of the Spirit” in the great monastic tradition is identified with the “gift of tears”, tears of repentance, “ascetic” tears, then “pneumatic” tears of joy and gratitude. Little by little, sometimes immediately, man feels opening within him, beyond the space-time dimension, the breath of the immense, the “breath of the Spirit”. Then prayer reaches the spontaneity of life, the rhythm of the heart, cosmic celebration.

vatican.va/jubilee_2000/magazine/documents/ju_mag_01041998_p-17_en.html

 

[Fiasco]

So in theory [and all too often, in practice!] grace can be despised ignore and wasted or through devoted cooperation can result in uncommon holiness. But, it’s not magic and won’t change the emotional aspect of how I experience** temptation and testing.** How then do graces help?

Being in the state of grace will certainly allow a person to more easily resist temptation, to succeed when tested.

Regarding temptation, the will is being tested. The intellect knows certain “things” are sinful, and it has to override the will if the will tries to have its way. God’s grace is always sufficient to allow us to make the right decision in any particular circumstance, but we have to make an effort. With God’s grace, every time we win, we become a bit more able to resist the next time. There’s the slow climb.

If we commit a grave/mortal sin, so throwing away God’s grace, the Sacrament of Confession/Reconciliation is there for us to regain it, as long as we’re sincerely sorry, and have a firm resolve to avoid that sin in the future. If we fall again with the same sin, there’s Confession again, but the sorrow and resolve have to be there. We can’t just keep up the cycle.

We can make use of the Sacrament of Confession to gain more grace even if mortal sin isn’t involved. Extra grace strengthens us. Of course, Holy Communion also does. After all, that’s the reason for receiving our Lord’s Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. It’s all about growth in holiness/virtue. And holiness doesn’t necessarily have to be blatantly visible.

[We’re on slightly different wavelengths regarding certain aspects of this: eg regarding supernatural life, the word “magic” worries me. “the **emotional aspect”! There’s other stuff, but i’ve lost the ability to express it with better wording! ]

Again, the whole thing of spiritual growth is a** quiet working** of God’s Life within us.
Prayer is vital.
Hebrews 12 says that we’re surrounded by a cloud of (holy) witnesses, so as well as calling on God direct, we can ask the saints to intercede for us. They want us to call on them.

There’s a book titled “Theology and Sanity” by Frank Sheed. An earlier, and almost identical, version is available to read online. It’s also downloadable. Expired copyright, so **Gratis! **It’s a good read. “theology and sanity katapi” takes you to it.

This link worked at this end….
www.katapi.org.uk/TandS/Contents.html

Sorry!!! i can’t shut up!!!

 

[Mammoths]

I appreciate your contribution, fiasco. I used magic to describe an effortless metamorphosis. If it were magic, we could just take the sacrament of reconciliation let’s say, and do the penance and next time around we would ‘magically’ breeze through temptation without stumbling. Magic is a manipulation. I have seen some charismatic stuff that is basically just magic–a preacher who knows how to whip a congregation into a frenzy. It doesn’t bring change though–except the kind that jingles.

 

[Mammoths]

The Orthodox theologian Olivier Clément is quoted on the site www.vatican.va on baptism of spirit:

In the Spirit, the intellect is united to the “heart”: then a “sensibility” is aroused which is not sentimental but ontological, the “sensibility of the Spirit”, that is to say, the ability to “feel God beyond all and in all”.

“Baptism of the Spirit” in the great monastic tradition is identified with the “gift of tears”, tears of repentance, “ascetic” tears, then “pneumatic” tears of joy and gratitude. Little by little, sometimes immediately, man feels opening within him, beyond the space-time dimension, the breath of the immense, the “breath of the Spirit”. Then prayer reaches the spontaneity of life, the rhythm of the heart, cosmic celebration.

vatican.va/jubilee_2000/magazine/documents/ju_mag_01041998_p-17_en.html

So would a Pentecostal be already confirmed?

 

[Vico]

So would a Pentecostal be already confirmed?

I would say no, not in the sense used by the Catholic and Orthodox churches.

Catholic belief is that there are seven sacraments (mysteries) but that there are other times that the Holy Spirit acts such are called gifts and charisms.

For example from the Catechism of the Catholic Church

951 –“Communion of charisms. Within the communion of the church, the Holy Spirit ‘distributes special graces among the faithful of every rank’ for the building up of the Church. [482] now, ‘to each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.’ [483]”

2003 – “Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning ‘favor,’ ‘gratuitous gift,’ ‘benefit.’ [53] Whatever their character – sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues – charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church. [54]”

 

[CB_Catholic]

Questions like this aren’t easily answered. Every person is on a spiritual journey, and God works with every person in a spiritual way. One poster claims that it is only a gradual awareness that is experienced, that the sort of “blinding light” conversions are very rare, but I beg to differ. I know personally that such a conversion experience can happen, although most people don’t see a blinding light as St. Paul did, they do have profound spiritual AND emotional experiences that set their lives on a completely different course and transformed their minds in such a way that they began to “see” their sin and their lives in a very different light almost instantly. I know dozens of people that can relate their stories about this, and just do an internet search for hundreds and hundreds more. It is more common among Catholics than one would think, even outside of the charismatic renewal. Often one will experience this at a retreat or Cursillo or renewal, and often they will share their experiences. I also witnessed this firsthand at such an event, although for me, the retreats and Cursillo occurred after my conversion experience.

For myself, the conversion was so fast and so life-changing that I thought perhaps I was going crazy, and this happened outside of the charismatic experiences of many. I had made a conscious effort to seek God, as a baptized and confirmed Catholic my experience with Him was sterile and rule-driven, but when He “touched” me as they say, He became a living reality, and I saw things entirely differently than before. For one thing, I developed a hunger for reading the Bible that I never had before. For another, my moral outlook changed completely. I saw sin for what it was, and realized that some of my actions that I did not consider sinful most certainly were. I also developed an aversion to such things as dirty jokes, pictures, etc., which before I laughed at or looked at. I also yearned for Mass and Communion like I never had before, and saw others in a different light–as God’s children to be loved and cherished, even if I didn’t like them. I also became very aware of the presence of evil. I cannot emphasize enough how profound these changes in me were, and how fast it happened. I felt as if my whole mind was being re-formed.

Now one cannot expect this state to last forever, and it does not, but it was a gift from God, His way of drawing me to Himself which He knew was the best for me, and the emotions and spiritual changes were real, but, as the early Christians experienced, the reality of living as a Christian can be difficult and even mundane, and one can backslide. Read the New Testament and one will see this pattern repeatedly in the letters to the different churches. What was necessary was to persist through prayer and the Sacraments and to deliberately cultivate my spirituality and relationship with Christ and my brothers and sisters in Christ–and this is important–finding such fellowship to help nurture and bolster your faith. It is very difficult to do this alone.

I am being very honest here, and I know there are many, many Catholics on these forums who have had such a profound spiritual awakening. and if they wanted to, could tell you their stories. All this, of course, is the work of the Holy Spirit. There are a few people who do receive this awakening at Confirmation–this happened to my daughter, and I have seen and spoke with RCIA candidates (I am on the RCIA team) who have experienced such moments at their Baptism or Confirmation. i would never tell them their experience and emotions were not to be trusted, but I would tell them that this is sort of a jumpstart to their Christian lives, a profound gift, and now it’s up to them to grow strong enough so that when the high fades and the work begins they know where to go for their strength.

And then there are the very dear friends of mine who have had the privilege of somehow “knowing” God for as long as they remember and God drew them to Himself in a very different way. I have a granddaughter like this–even though she is now 15 she has always been open to the Spirit and had a sweet relationship with the Lord since she learned her first prayers, and she will talk about Him with her friends without any embarrassment.

To the OP, get confirmed, and put yourself entirely in the hands of the Lord. What you experience will differ from others, your Christian life is uniquely yours, but be open to the workings of the Holy Spirit always. He WILL trans form you if you desire it, but how He does it is His call. Do not be afraid of your emotions–who would not get emotional when they meet the Lord?, but realize that they are not something that will persist and are not the source of your joy–God is. There may come a time of trial and temptation and the sense that God is not there at times, but that is how we grow and learn to trust Him. If you read the lives of the great saints, many of them will testify to this.

And, in IMO and I have also heard this from priests, Pentecost was at the root of the Sacrament of Confirmation, the Holy Spirit giving people the power to spread the Gospel. But you don’t have to be a charismatic to experience the Holy Spirit like this, although I believe in the Charismatic Renewal, and it does have Church approval.