"Baptism of the Spirit"

[Mammoths]

I would say no, not in the sense used by the Catholic and Orthodox churches.

Catholic belief is that there are seven sacraments (mysteries) but that there are other times that the Holy Spirit acts such are called gifts and charisms.

For example from the Catechism of the Catholic Church

951 –“Communion of charisms. Within the communion of the church, the Holy Spirit ‘distributes special graces among the faithful of every rank’ for the building up of the Church. [482] now, ‘to each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.’ [483]”

2003 – “Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning ‘favor,’ ‘gratuitous gift,’ ‘benefit.’ [53] Whatever their character – sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues – charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church. [54]”

So by “every rank” we can explain how persons in non Catholic Churches may begin experiencing a real mystical fellowship with God even though they haven’t been through all the rites of initiation. ?

 

[Bookcat]

1302 It is evident from its celebration that the effect of the sacrament of Confirmation is the special outpouring of the Holy Spirit as once granted to the apostles on the day of Pentecost.
-CCC

Here is a fuller summary of the effects of the Sacrament of Confirmation:

Catechism

III. THE EFFECTS OF CONFIRMATION

1302 It is evident from its celebration that the effect of the sacrament of Confirmation is the special outpouring of the Holy Spirit as once granted to the apostles on the day of Pentecost.

1303 From this fact, Confirmation brings an increase and deepening of baptismal grace:

• it roots us more deeply in the divine filiation which makes us cry, “Abba! Father!”;117
• it unites us more firmly to Christ;
• it increases the gifts of the Holy Spirit in us;
• it renders our bond with the Church more perfect;118
• it gives us a special strength of the Holy Spirit to spread and defend the faith by word and action as true witnesses of Christ, to confess the name of Christ boldly, and never to be ashamed of the Cross:119
  
  Recall then that you have received the spiritual seal, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of right judgment and courage, the spirit of knowledge and reverence, the spirit of holy fear in God’s presence. Guard what you have received. God the Father has marked you with his sign; Christ the Lord has confirmed you and has placed his pledge, the Spirit, in your hearts.120

1304 Like Baptism which it completes, Confirmation is given only once, for it too imprints on the soul an indelible spiritual mark, the “character,” which is the sign that Jesus Christ has marked a Christian with the seal of his Spirit by clothing him with power from on high so that he may be his witness.121

1305 This “character” perfects the common priesthood of the faithful, received in Baptism, and "the confirmed person receives the power to profess faith in Christ publicly and as it were officially (quasi Ex officio)."122

scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a2.htm#III

 

[Bookcat]

Now did some of the things you otherwise mention happen at (at least at times) in the early Church post Pentecost - yes. But as the Church continued past its initial centuries these signs became rather less frequent. One can gather that they were particularly helpful in the early years.

One can though find such charisms down through the centuries within the Church (though less widespread) such as in the lives of the Saints.

Now do such occur in the Church today? Yes. That is the whole reality of the Catholic Charismatic Movement - which one can argue is a particular gift of help and grace in our times…even a response to the Prayer of the Popes (at the beginning of the 20th century and St. John XXIII in the late 1960’s.

 

[Mammoths]

Now did some of the things you otherwise mention happen at (at least at times) in the early Church post Pentecost - yes. But as the Church continued past its initial centuries these signs became rather less frequent. One can gather that they were particularly helpful in the early years.

One can though find such charisms down through the centuries within the Church (though less widespread) such as in the lives of the Saints.

Now do such occur in the Church today? Yes. That is the whole reality of the Catholic Charismatic Movement - which one can argue is a particular gift of help and grace in our times…even a response to the Prayer of the Popes (at the beginning of the 20th century and St. John XXIII in the late 1960’s.

Sometimes the recording of history focuses the extradinary into a small space making the frequency seem dense. I actually think supernatural experiences are common among Christians–even those who don’t claim to be of a charismatic partisanship. I was at a friends house once with 4 or five christian men of a variety of denominational backgrounds. To a man they all chose Jesus following a personal revelation. Jesus is certainly alive.

 

[Bookcat]

Sometimes the recording of history focuses the extradinary into a small space making the frequency seem dense. I actually think supernatural experiences are common among Christians–even those who don’t claim to be of a charismatic partisanship.

I was referring to those particular ones.

 

[Fiasco]

I appreciate your contribution…

…I have seen some charismatic stuff that is basically just magic–a preacher who knows how to whip a congregation into a frenzy. It doesn’t bring change though–except the kind that jingles.

Thank you for your comment! It’s appreciated in turn.

To be honest, i can’t stand the business of being whipped up emotionally, but for others…each to his own.

Once, in secondary school (in 1972 to be exact ), we senior students had a combined Scripture class featuring an alleged faith healer who was presented by the local Anglican minister. Along with almost everyone else, i was stirred up into a frenzy and shouting “Hallelujah” over and over and over. This feller had us in the palm of his hand. He could’ve told us to burn down the school, and some of us probably would have tried to. Loss of self-control. Reason swamped by emotion. It took two weeks (!!!) for the emotion to drain away. Once bitten, twice shy. And it’s been that way ever since.

My own experience with spiritual growth (once it started) has been slow with only very small “jolts”, so that’s all i can base my comments on. It’s been a bit of a slog with ups and downs, but with progress evident when looking back: eg an awareness of sin that would have been shrugged off earlier on. And to be honest, i don’t personally know anyone whose life has been much different! CB Catholic’s experiences have been different, and she knows plenty of others the same, so…we’re all different. We mix with different crowds.

After that affair at school, hardheadedness/extreme caution (justified, i reckon) would make me run from what CB Catholic and others have experienced.
With some of us, what the Vet ordered is a quiet and level-headed approach.

Your 9:16 am post jolted my memory.
About six months after my late mother died, i experienced an intense feeling of goodwill towards her. It came "out of the blue, and lasted for only a couple of seconds. Maybe it was a sign that she had passed from Purgatory to Heaven…who knows. In this life, we hadn’t got on particularly well. About 15 years later, i ran into one of her goddaughters who said that my mother had recently communicated with her…the goddaughter couldn’t possibly have naturally known what she said my mother’s spirit revealed.
Plenty of folks have been about to unwittingly do something dangerous, and have sensed a deceased loved one’s restraining warning.

i firmly believe occurrences like those described above.
Romans 12 says we’re surrounded by a cloud of witnesses, those who have died in the state of grace and are now with God. They know what we’re going through, and want to help us.

Time to bail out again.

On a different note, don’t forget to check out “Theology and Sanity”.

 

[Vico]

So by “every rank” we can explain how persons in non Catholic Churches may begin experiencing a real mystical fellowship with God even though they haven’t been through all the rites of initiation. ?

The charisms may be given to those in a state of mortal sin.

Charisms (St. Paul) are gratuitous graces called in Latin gratia gratis data. In Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott writes:
4. Gratia Gratis Data - Gratia Gratum Facien.

Although every grace is gratis data, l.e., a free gift of the Divine Goodness, the term Gratia Gratis Data is given specifically to every grace which is conferred on particular persons for the salvation of others. To this class belong such extraordinary gifts of grace as charismata (prophecy, gift of miracles, gift of tongues; cf. I Cor. 12, 8 et seq.), the priestly power of consecration, the hierarchical power of jurisdiction. The possession of these gifts is independent of the personal moral composition of their possessor (cf. Mt. 7. 22 et seq.; Jolm II, 49-52).
Also listed as charisms is “ordinary powers of the priest and confessor” which we know does not require a state of grace on the part of the priest or confessor because the sacraments act ex opere operato.

Catechism of the Catholic Church
1128 This is the meaning of the Church’s affirmation 49 that the sacraments act ex opere operato (literally: “by the very fact of the action’s being performed”), i.e., by virtue of the saving work of Christ, accomplished once for all. It follows that “the sacrament is not wrought by the righteousness of either the celebrant or the recipient, but by the power of God.” 50 From the moment that a sacrament is celebrated in accordance with the intention of the Church, the power of Christ and his Spirit acts in and through it, independently of the personal holiness of the minister. Nevertheless, the fruits of the sacraments also depend on the disposition of the one who receives them.

49 Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1608.
50 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh III, 68,8.

 

[Bookcat]

Keep in mind that Ott predates the advent of the Charismatic Renewal.

 

[PNEUMA]

The Orthodox theologian Olivier Clément is quoted on the site www.vatican.va on baptism of spirit:

In the Spirit, the intellect is united to the “heart”: then a “sensibility” is aroused which is not sentimental but ontological, the “sensibility of the Spirit”, that is to say, the ability to “feel God beyond all and in all”.

“Baptism of the Spirit” in the great monastic tradition is identified with the “gift of tears”, tears of repentance, “ascetic” tears, then “pneumatic” tears of joy and gratitude. Little by little, sometimes immediately, man feels opening within him, beyond the space-time dimension, the breath of the immense, the “breath of the Spirit”. Then prayer reaches the spontaneity of life, the rhythm of the heart, cosmic celebration.

vatican.va/jubilee_2000/magazine/documents/ju_mag_01041998_p-17_en.html

Outstanding description

 

[DebChris]

Conversion is a lifelong process.

What Pentecostals and others call the “Baptism of the Spirit” is rightly understood by Catholics as a release of the gifts, or charisms, that we have already received by virtue of the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation.
The manifestation of these gifts, which the Holy Spirit gives as He chooses does not make one person holier than another. What is more important than the outward manifestation, is the continued spiritual growth of the person.
The unfortunate reality for many Catholics is that they put their gifts “on a shelf in a closet” as it were and never open them. They don’t know how rich they are. Their personal faith is one of rote memorization rather than the lived faith to which we are called.
There are non-Catholic denominations who buy into the notion of “once saved, always saved.” St. James tells us, “Show me faith without works, and I will show you the faith that underlies my works.” The indelible mark of Faith that we receive through the Sacraments makes our sacred work possible, not by our own will by the working of the Holy Spirit through us.
When we are open to the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Trinity is able to work more fully through us. It is the Holy Spirit who gave the Apostles the courage and zeal they needed to spread the gospel after Pentecost (the birthday of the Church) that they lacked before then.
Jesus said, “I am the vine and you are the branches. Apart from me you can do nothing. With God, all things are possible.” St. Paul reminds us that we are temples of the Holy Spirit.

 

[CB_Catholic]

Conversion is a lifelong process.

What Pentecostals and others call the “Baptism of the Spirit” is rightly understood by Catholics as a release of the gifts, or charisms, that we have already received by virtue of the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation.
The manifestation of these gifts, which the Holy Spirit gives as He chooses does not make one person holier than another. What is more important than the outward manifestation, is the continued spiritual growth of the person.
The unfortunate reality for many Catholics is that they put their gifts “on a shelf in a closet” as it were and never open them. They don’t know how rich they are. Their personal faith is one of rote memorization rather than the lived faith to which we are called.
There are non-Catholic denominations who buy into the notion of “once saved, always saved.” St. James tells us, “Show me faith without works, and I will show you the faith that underlies my works.” The indelible mark of Faith that we receive through the Sacraments makes our sacred work possible, not by our own will by the working of the Holy Spirit through us.
When we are open to the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Trinity is able to work more fully through us. It is the Holy Spirit who gave the Apostles the courage and zeal they needed to spread the gospel after Pentecost (the birthday of the Church) that they lacked before then.
Jesus said, “I am the vine and you are the branches. Apart from me you can do nothing. With God, all things are possible.” St. Paul reminds us that we are temples of the Holy Spirit.

Very well said.

 

[Bookcat]

Conversion is a lifelong process.

What Pentecostals and others call the “Baptism of the Spirit” is rightly understood by Catholics as a release of the gifts, or charisms, that we have already received by virtue of the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation.

That is one understanding.

The other is that it is a *new coming *of the Holy Spirit in the life of the baptized Christian.

and yet another - is it can involve both.

 

[Mammoths]

Conversion is a lifelong process.

What Pentecostals and others call the “Baptism of the Spirit” is rightly understood by Catholics as a release of the gifts, or charisms, that we have already received by virtue of the Sacraments of Baptism and confirmation.

So are the release of these gifts in Pentecostals a sign of having received a confirmation of desire or huh?

 

[DebChris]

So are the release of these gifts in Pentecostals a sign of having received a confirmation of desire or huh?

The Baptism of Desire, as understood by the Catholic Church is different.
It is for those who through no fault of their own are unable to be Baptized, to receive the Sacraments of the Church.

Read Acts, Chapter 10.

1. Cornelius, a devout Gentile has a dream. Sends servants to invite Peter.
2. Peter has a vision. A voice tells him “take and eat” of all these creatures considered unclean according to Hebrew teaching.
3. Peter accepts Cornelius’s invitation. Enters Gentile home (forbidden under Jewish Law)
4. As Peter preaches, the Holy Spirit falls upon the household of Cornelius. They pray in tongues and exhibit the charisms of the Holy Spirit.
5. The Household of Cornelius is then Baptized as Jesus commanded the Apostles to Baptize.

What Acts, Chapter 10 shows is the receipt of the charisms first followed by the Sacramental Baptism.
God can work however He chooses. A person can receive the charism, followed by reception into the Church, or a person can be a member of the Church first.

Note that the household of Cornelius accepts Peter’s instruction.
The gentiles become part of the New Covenant, and the Body of Christ.

There really is no Confirmation of Desire. Confirmation does call for a direct commitment on the part of the individual to affirm belief/faith in the risen Lord. The term “soldier of Christ” is no longer used, but it does involve a deeper commitment than Baptism (rebirth). That adult commitment is strengthened by the grace and gifts of the Holy Spirit.
.