Baptism Question

[jmcrae]

They could have also been baptized in a Luthern Church, yet be raised as Catholics and they would be fully Catholic. If the Baptism is recognized by the church as being valid, then it did NOT have to have been done in a Roman Catholic Church.

Uh - not exactly. He would actually be considered Lutheran until he makes a Profession of Faith in the Catholic Church, which he would have to do before receiving any other Sacraments in the Catholic Church.

I had a case like this of a child of Catholic parents who had been baptized in an Anglican Church, because his uncle was an Anglican priest and wanted to do the baptism.

The child was taking classes for First Holy Communion, and when we asked for his Certificate of Baptism, it came out that the child was Anglican. It was easily fixed - the child simply recited the Nicene Creed in the Church, with Father and myself as witnesses, and a notation was added to his Baptismal certificate, to show that he had made a Profession of Faith in the Catholic Church. He was then permitted to continue with his preparation classes and to receive First Holy Communion - it’s easy enough to fix, but it’s not “the same.”

An emergency situation is a totally different thing - even an atheist can baptize, in that case. So could the parents have.

 

[babochka]

You say yes but canon law seems to be saying no?

Could you clarify that a bit more for me?

Pax
Stephen

I can’t quote canon law, but 3 of my 5 children have been baptized in an Eastern Rite church. One of them was baptized just 3 weeks ago.

 

[babochka]

If the children are at least age 14 then they can choose their Church so they can be baptised in an eastern Catholic Church according to their ritual.

The norm for a Latin Catholic couple’s infant is to be baptised with the Latin baptism ritual. When the faculty is granted from the Latin Church to the Eastern presbyter or ordinary they can then use the Latin ritual. But the Eastern presbyter or ordinary is to follow the ritual of his own Church normally. When the Eastern presbyter baptises a Latin Catholic couple’s infant, they do not give chrismation or first communion, in keeping with the prescriptions of the Latin Church. There are exceptions for grave situations, of course. Also if the couple is of two different Catholic Churches, then there are different rules that can apply for infant baptism.

I know that we’ve had this discussion before. This may be the way the canons are written, but in my part of the world it is certainly not how they are lived out. 3 of my 5 children have received the Sacraments of Baptism, Chrismation, and Holy Communion in an Eastern Rite Church. The other 2 have received Christmation and First Communion, at the ages of 2 and 3. The situation was not grave and has involved 3 different priests, under 2 different bishops. It is the same in all other parishes in which I’ve been involved.

 

[Vico]

I know that we’ve had this discussion before. This may be the way the canons are written, but in my part of the world it is certainly not how they are lived out. 3 of my 5 children have received the Sacraments of Baptism, Chrismation, and Holy Communion in an Eastern Rite Church. The other 2 have received Christmation and First Communion, at the ages of 2 and 3. The situation was not grave and has involved 3 different priests, under 2 different bishops. It is the same in all other parishes in which I’ve been involved.

They are following the Eastern praxis, which is normal for those ascribed to their Church sui iuris. CCEO was promulgated in 1990 and I believe it is common for priests to not understand the canons, so that the sacraments are sometimes valid but not licit (proper permissions and faculties are not obtained and Latin canons are not followed for Latin Church faithful or Eastern canons are not followed for the Eastern faithful).

That mutual understanding will secure the valid and licit reception of the sacremental mysteries, was communicated in the preface of book: Inter-Ecclesial Relations Between Eastern and Latin Catholics* Salachas, Nitkiewicz, translated by George Dmitry Gallaro.*

Also in that book H.E. Byzantine Metropolitan Basil Schott D.D. states that the often followed praxis does not always correspond to the norm.

Since Vatican II*, Orientalium Ecclesiarum*, 1964, there has been an particular effort made for “Preservation of the Spiritual Heritage of the Eastern Churches”, and the reciprocal rights to honor the sacramental discipline of each Church sui iuris.

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_orientalium-ecclesiarum_en.html

 

[Hesychios]

… When the Eastern presbyter baptises a Latin Catholic couple’s infant, they do not give chrismation or first communion, in keeping with the prescriptions of the Latin Church. .

Oddly, I have read that in Hungary there are many cases of Confirmation at infancy in the Latin church. It seems to have been the norm there for some long time, but I don’t have reference handy, so you will have to consider it apocryphal unless someone else knows abiout it.

 

[Vico]

Oddly, I have read that in Hungary there are many cases of Confirmation at infancy in the Latin church. It seems to have been the norm there for some long time, but I don’t have reference handy, so you will have to consider it apocryphal unless someone else knows abiout it.

I imagine that would have been normal in Hajdudorog eparchy (1913) and Miskolc exarchate (1924), and some families there could be Latin Catholic instead of Greek Catholic. Those areas were populated with communities of Orthodox Serbs, Ruthenians, Slovaks, and Greeks, escaping the Ottoman invasion and of course they choose the Byzantine tradition. (Interesting that their liturgy was in Greek until the 1930s.)

 

[ConstantineTG]

Oddly, I have read that in Hungary there are many cases of Confirmation at infancy in the Latin church. It seems to have been the norm there for some long time, but I don’t have reference handy, so you will have to consider it apocryphal unless someone else knows abiout it.

I was confirmed as an infant, although it was not at the same time as my baptism. This was in Manila in the 70s

 

[Aramis]

Can ‘Roman’ Catholic parents have their children baptized in the eastern Catholic rite?

Pax
Stephen

Yes, presuming that their Roman bishop doesn’t object. But so doing doesn’t make the children canonically non-Roman.

 

[alepine3]

I’m in a similar situation as OP.

My wife is pregnant with identical twins (week 30 now) and the issue of baptism has come up naturally, as we’re of two different rites (Eastern and Western). We were married in the Latin Rite and my wife has said that she would really like a baptism in her church as well, which I’ve agreed to. We want the “naming” and “presentation” done in the Ukrainian Catholic church I go to, however.

Here’s my question: would my children be equally considered Eatern and Latin Catholic? Assuming they’re RC, can they easily switch rites later?

Thanks in advance.

 

[malphono]

Here’s my question: would my children be equally considered Eatern and Latin Catholic? Assuming they’re RC, can they easily switch rites later?

Thanks in advance.

No, the children would be enrolled in one Church or another, not both. They may, however, choose to transfer at age 14. Have a look at CCEO Canons 29 & 34, and CIC Canon 111 in my earlier [post=7476957]post[/post].

 

[Hesychios]

I imagine that would have been normal in Hajdudorog eparchy (1913) and Miskolc exarchate (1924), and some families there could be Latin Catholic instead of Greek Catholic. Those areas were populated with communities of Orthodox Serbs, Ruthenians, Slovaks, and Greeks, escaping the Ottoman invasion and of course they choose the Byzantine tradition. (Interesting that their liturgy was in Greek until the 1930s.)

I got the impression it was a nationwide practice for Latin Catholoics. It could be a holdover from the work of Ss Cyril and Methodios, before the Magyar immigration and the conversion of Saint Stephen to the latin church.

Again though, I must stress, this is second-hand info which I cannot confirm with the resources I have at hand these days.

 

[Vico]

I got the impression it was a nationwide practice for Latin Catholoics. It could be a holdover from the work of Ss Cyril and Methodios, before the Magyar immigration and the conversion of Saint Stephen to the latin church.

Again though, I must stress, this is second-hand info which I cannot confirm with the resources I have at hand these days.

The ancient practice was at an early age, east and west, and now has been restored at least to the age of discretion, but there is a proposal to return to infant confirmation, submitted in 1992 by FDLC (Federation of Diocesan Liturgical Commissions).

PS 1992 E 2.12
It is the position of the delegates to the 1992 National Meeting of Diocesan Liturgical Commissions that the Board of Directors of the Federation of Diocesan Liturgical Commissions and the Bishops’ Committee on the Liturgy urge the National Conference of Catholic Bishops to take the initiative to propose to the Apostolic See a discussion on the restoration of the ancient practice of celebrating confirmation and communion at the time of baptism, including the baptism of children who have not yet reached catechetical age, so that through connection of these three sacraments, the unity of the Paschal Mystery would be better signified and the eucharist would again assume its proper significance as the culmination of Christian initiation.
fdlc.org/Documents/Bylaws/12H-PositionStatements.pdf

As an example, the age of confirmation in the 13th century:

Constitutions of Richard Poore (~ 1217) by age five.
Synod of Worcester (1240) by age one.
Richard of Chicester (1246) by age one.
Synod of Exeter (1287) by age three.

 

[Vico]

I was confirmed as an infant, although it was not at the same time as my baptism. This was in Manila in the 70s

I saw this in another thread:

It was for a long time common for infants to be confirmed at the time of their baptism in the Latin Church in areas of Spain, the Phillipines and Latin America… I am not sure how complete an explanation it is, but I have been told that this was done because of the difficulty some bishops would have had gettting to some communities to do it at a later age, and concerns over infant mortality…

I know that it is still the case in at least some areas of Mexico… but I was not certain if a move has been made to push it back later and later to mid-late teens as it has been in other parts of the world?

(And yes, I am talking about in the Latin rite, not Eastern Catholics…)

 

[Stephentlig]

Note: Baptism sorted. We are expecting in two weeks and Fr.Serge will be expected to baptise our boy. He said its no problem and that change of rites if we wish is not a difficult task at all.

God bless and thank you
Stephentlig

 

[jmcrae]

Note: Baptism sorted. We are expecting in two weeks and Fr.Serge will be expected to baptise our boy. He said its no problem and that change of rites if we wish is not a difficult task at all.

God bless and thank you
Stephentlig

Awesome!

Blessings on your new baby.

 

[Vico]

Note: Baptism sorted. We are expecting in two weeks and Fr.Serge will be expected to baptise our boy. He said its no problem and that change of rites if we wish is not a difficult task at all.

God bless and thank you
Stephentlig

You mean change of rite for you and your wife, by formal request? The infant takes the ritual Church of one of the Catholic parents, rather than by particular ritual used (which could be any, with appropriate approval).

 

[Stephentlig]

You mean change of rite for you and your wife, by formal request? The infant takes the ritual Church of one of the Catholic parents, rather than by particular ritual used (which could be any, with appropriate approval).

Yes change of rite by formal request? what does formal request mean? letter to local roman bishop?. Anyways Fr.Serge said he’d talk to me about it when we arrive at the end of the month and come to discuss the baptism.

He asked me why I had this urge for the Greek rite and I told him its something I’ve always had in me since the beginnings of my return to the Catholic Church. But never even knew I could change rites. however, I love all rites and liturgys but prefer to be at this Liturgy. My house is coming down with icons of Sacred heart of Jesus, chotkis and rosarys of Our Lady. Byzantine music and books of St.Seraphim of Sarov and I have lebanonese saints that surround me and so on. Not to mention all the western ones too.

I’m looking forward to it and if it is in Gods will I am permitted to change rites then so be it. If not then so be it. Either way all is hunky dory and the flower continues to realease its fragrance regardless of the outcome I’m a happy Catholic.

What do you mean by your second sentence though? both I and my wife are currently of the Roman Rite.

 

[Stephentlig]

Awesome!

Blessings on your new baby.

Thank you JM.

Pax Christi
Stephen

 

[Vico]

Yes change of rite by formal request? what does formal request mean? letter to local roman bishop?. Anyways Fr.Serge said he’d talk to me about it when we arrive at the end of the month and come to discuss the baptism.

He asked me why I had this urge for the Greek rite and I told him its something I’ve always had in me since the beginnings of my return to the Catholic Church. But never even knew I could change rites. however, I love all rites and liturgys but prefer to be at this Liturgy. My house is coming down with icons of Sacred heart of Jesus, chotkis and rosarys of Our Lady. Byzantine music and books of St.Seraphim of Sarov and I have lebanonese saints that surround me and so on. Not to mention all the western ones too.

I’m looking forward to it and if it is in Gods will I am permitted to change rites then so be it. If not then so be it. Either way all is hunky dory and the flower continues to realease its fragrance regardless of the outcome I’m a happy Catholic.

What do you mean by your second sentence though? both I and my wife are currently of the Roman Rite.

If you want to request a change of ritual Church from the Latin to the other eastern church, you must write a letter to the bishop of the eastern church in your area (you said Ukrainian Catholic I think). If the Ukrainian Catholic bishop for your eparchy approves, then the Latin Church bishop for your diocese must agree. You will receive a form and must get two witnesses of your acceptance of transfer and return it, and I believe you must also obtain and send a copy of your baptism certificate so that the Latin Church records can be updated.

What I mean is that if you are both in the Latin Church when the baby is baptised, then the baby becomes a member of the Latin Church, even if baptised using the Ukrainian Catholic baptism ritual and a Ukrainian Catholic priest. But normally the baptism uses the ritual of the Latin Church for babies of Latin Church parents under age 14 because those in the Latin Church are subject to the Latin Church canon law. The canon laws for the Churches were updated to use this rule in 1983 and 1991.

Once your transfer is approved then your wife can elect to change also, but does not have to.

 

[Stephentlig]

If you want to request a change of ritual Church from the Latin to the other eastern church, you must write a letter to the bishop of the eastern church in your area (you said Ukrainian Catholic I think). If the Ukrainian Catholic bishop for your eparchy approves, then the Latin Church bishop for your diocese must agree. You will receive a form and must get two witnesses of your acceptance of transfer and return it, and I believe you must also obtain and send a copy of your baptism certificate so that the Latin Church records can be updated.

What I mean is that if you are both in the Latin Church when the baby is baptised, then the baby becomes a member of the Latin Church, even if baptised using the Ukrainian Catholic baptism ritual and a Ukrainian Catholic priest. But normally the baptism uses the ritual of the Latin Church for babies of Latin Church parents under age 14 because those in the Latin Church are subject to the Latin Church canon law. The canon laws for the Churches were updated to use this rule in 1983 and 1991.

Once your transfer is approved then your wife can elect to change also, but does not have to.

Strange because Father Serge said that he will receive the Greek rite baptism. I must ask him about that. He did say that after the baptism we can discuss the move and so on. Thanks Vico for your replies and help. I know nothing about it all.

Pax
Stephen