Baptism Question

[PRmerger]

So you are saying that there are no non-Catholics in heaven?

You might be surprised to read that I’m not only going to assert that, yes, there are non-Catholics in heaven, but that there are pagans, Jews, Muslims, and even atheists in heaven.

(Although, once you’re in heaven you’re Catholic, through and through. )

 

[USMC_Convert]

You might be surprised to read that I’m not only going to assert that, yes, there are non-Catholics in heaven, but that there are pagans, Jews, Muslims, and even atheists in heaven.

(Although, once you’re in heaven you’re Catholic, through and through. )

Uhhhh, reread it, and read your first statement, you were the one saying that I was and always have said that non Catholics can make it to heaven.

 

[PRmerger]

Uhhhh, reread it, and read your first statement, you were the one saying that I was and always have said that non Catholics can make it to heaven.

Just so we’re clear: you also believe nonChristians can make it to heaven, yes?

 

[USMC_Convert]

Just so we’re clear: you also believe nonChristians can make it to heaven, yes?

Yes, of course!!!

The real question is why is the author of this thread attempting to persuade us that only those who are safely within the practicing body of the Catholic Church make it to heaven? What is the purpose of this thread, what’s the end game?

 

[PRmerger]

Yes, of course!!!

Excellent.

Then how do you respond to the question: if you believe that people can be in heaven that aren’t Christians, then aren’t you dismissing Christ’s words that state that no one gets to heaven apart from Him?

 

[USMC_Convert]

Excellent.

Then how do you respond to the question: if you believe that people can be in heaven that aren’t Christians, then aren’t you dismissing Christ’s words that state that no one gets to heaven apart from Him?

Well first off and let’s get this out in the open, I have no proof…

However that being said, I have the statements of the Saints and Mystics of the Catholic Church who have been told that non-Catholics and I believe, however don’t quote me on this because I can’t find a reference right now, that even non-Christians are in heaven. That’s private revelation example 1.

Second I have private revelation example 2 where God the Father says that charity is the most important thing and with much love and mercy even more sins are forgiven. Furthermore in the same book He says that anyone that calls Him Father will be forgiven.

Private revelation example 3 or 4, depending on how you are counting, is the message of Divine Mercy, and in this message I find hope for all those especially the Muslims, and the Chinese and all those who by other means have the message of Christ with held from them. I cannot believe that with God’s Divine Mercy He would allow so many, who through no fault of their own are kept from His Son, to fall into eternal damnation.

Is there a hell? Do people go there? Are there Catholics and Protestants and all different classifications of people in hell? Yes, but I believe that God tries in everyway to save as many as possible, even if they aren’t Christians.

Perhaps, as some private revelations eludes to it comes down that single instant of death, and you are faced with a decision, Jesus asks you if you accept Him, and those that do accept Him are saved, even if they have lived as good Muslims all their lives.

In short, I don’t know, but I believe that God is good, and as the good God I don’t think He would condemn people who never got a chance to either accept or reject Jesus…

 

[KingdomSon]

Okay first off I don’t know why you are trying to make it so that no one outside of the Church can go to heaven.

Sir, it is not I as you propose trying to make it so that no one outside of the Church can go to heaven. I am only relaying what was spoken “ex cathedra” by former Popes. It is a dogma of the Catholic Faith that Outside the Catholic Church There is No Salvation. This was defined to you several times by several Popes speaking “ex cathedra.” Why do you reject the Catholic Church’s dogmatic teaching?

"… Are there people in heaven who were not Catholic while on earth, yes."

I agree. Such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Matthew 8:11) etc.

USMC_Convert:

Why am I doubting the words that you supposedly quoted verbatim?

Supposedly?

USMC_Convert:

Because I cannot see the source and thus have to take your word for it.

What was shown to you that was spoken by past Popes showed the source from where it was taken. For example…

Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra:
“For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to* the one universal Church, outside of which no one at all is saved**, and they all have one Lord and one faith.”*

USMC_Convert:

So I am not saying “they did not say that” I am saying they may have but I don’t know.

How can you say you don’t know when it was clearly documented unto you by the very words they said and from where that quote was lifted? Look it up.

USMC_Convert:

Finally I see you are not Catholic so I am suspicious as to your motives…

True, I am not at this time converted to the Catholic Faith (outwardly), but I am so becoming in my heart (inwardly) as I continue to pursue my studies. Rest assure USMC_Convert and all others reading my remarks that there is in truth no hidden motive behind what I am posting here to you all. Suspend your suspicions USMC_Convert, I am asking my questions and commenting with a sincere heart

USMC_Convert:

I say to myself, no matter who this guy quotes I know that there are non Catholics in heaven therefore he is wrong.

Are we not all baptised into the one body (1 Corinthians 12:13), and is not that one body the Church (Ephesian 1:22-23)? Are we not then made members and incorporated into the Church at baptism? What Church would that be then sir if the Church is one body. Is it those in the Presbyterian, Baptist, Pentecostal, Methodist…etc? Then it, the body, would be made up of MANY Churches, may faiths, NOT the “One Faith.”

USMC_Convert:

I know that we do not teach that you must be Catholic to enter heaven, if not your in hell…

You might not believe and teach that but this Catholic Pope speaking from the Chair of St. Peter declares otherwise…

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

USMC_Convert:

No matter how you put it, I speak the truth…

.

I beg to differ, based on what you say verses what the Pontiff’s have spoken “ex cathedra.”
To reject one dogma, as you do, of the Catholic Faith is to reject all Faith, since Christ is the guarantor of its dogmas.

"… so I guess the real question is, why do you doubt us, and why are you trying to make your stance true when it is not?"

Us? It’s YOU sir that I question since it is YOU making such remarks contrary to decrees issued from St. Peter’s Chair. And as to the accusation of why I am trying to make my stance true when it is not… the only stance I have taken is what was spoken “ex cathedra” by former Popes that Outside the Catholic Church There is No Salvation. It is True, though you say otherwise

KingdomSon

 

[KingdomSon]

I think you put the “obstinately” in the wrong place.

If that individual Protestant OBSTINATELY rejects the CC or its dogma on the sacraments, the Papacy, etc, he has, indeed, separated from the Faith -]of the Roman Church/-] of Christ and has therefore severed his membership in the Church of Christ.

Greetings PRmerger,

“OBSTINATELY” justifiably fits in either place

KingdomSon

 

[USMC_Convert]

Sir, it is not I as you propose trying to make it so that no one outside of the Church can go to heaven. I am only relaying what was spoken “ex cathedra” by former Popes. It is a dogma of the Catholic Faith that Outside the Catholic Church There is No Salvation. This was defined to you several times by several Popes speaking “ex cathedra.” Why do you reject the Catholic Church’s dogmatic teaching?

I agree. Such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Matthew 8:11) etc.

Supposedly?

What was shown to you that was spoken by past Popes showed the source from where it was taken. For example…

Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra:
“For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to* the one universal Church, outside of which no one at all is saved***, and they all have one Lord and one faith.”

How can you say you don’t know when it was clearly documented unto you by the very words they said and from where that quote was lifted? Look it up.

True, I am not at this time converted to the Catholic Faith (outwardly), but I am so becoming in my heart (inwardly) as I continue to pursue my studies. Rest assure USMC_Convert and all others reading my remarks that there is in truth no hidden motive behind what I am posting here to you all. Suspend your suspicions USMC_Convert, I am asking my questions and commenting with a sincere heart

Are we not all baptised into the one body (1 Corinthians 12:13), and is not that one body the Church (Ephesian 1:22-23)? Are we not then made members and incorporated into the Church at baptism? What Church would that be then sir if the Church is one body. Is it those in the Presbyterian, Baptist, Pentecostal, Methodist…etc? Then it, the body, would be made up of MANY Churches, may faiths, NOT the “One Faith.”

You might not believe and teach that but this Catholic Pope speaking from the Chair of St. Peter declares otherwise…

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

I beg to differ, based on what you say verses what the Pontiff’s have spoken “ex cathedra.”
To reject one dogma, as you do, of the Catholic Faith is to reject all Faith, since Christ is the guarantor of its dogmas.

Us? It’s YOU sir that I question since it is YOU making such remarks contrary to decrees issued from St. Peter’s Chair. And as to the accusation of why I am trying to make my stance true when it is not… the only stance I have taken is what was spoken “ex cathedra” by former Popes that Outside the Catholic Church There is No Salvation. It is True, though you say otherwise

KingdomSon

Well no matter what I say you will not believe me so then there is no point in continuing on. I suggest you find someone that you can believe and ask them, try your local Catholic priest.
God bless and peace be with you…

 

[Cathoholic]

This might help you fill out your Catholic teachings on extra Ecclesiam nulla salus KingdomSon.

CCC 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

CCC 848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

JOHN 15:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.

JOHN 9:22 Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

2nd PETER 2:21 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

CCC 1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” *God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments. *

You are to affirm ALL of the teachings of the Church KingdomSon.

You might reply: “Well I didn’t know any better; I’m not a Catholic”.

But now you DO know.

God bless.

Cathoholic

 

[PRmerger]

Greetings PRmerger,

“OBSTINATELY” justifiably fits in either place

KingdomSon

Fair enough.

It sounds like you’re acknowledging that a*** stubborn refusal is necessary*** in order to separate oneself.

On that, you are absolutely correct.

 

[PRmerger]

Well first off and let’s get this out in the open, I have no proof…

However that being said, I have the statements of the Saints and Mystics of the Catholic Church who have been told that non-Catholics and I believe, however don’t quote me on this because I can’t find a reference right now, that even non-Christians are in heaven. That’s private revelation example 1.

Second I have private revelation example 2 where God the Father says that charity is the most important thing and with much love and mercy even more sins are forgiven. Furthermore in the same book He says that anyone that calls Him Father will be forgiven.

Private revelation example 3 or 4, depending on how you are counting, is the message of Divine Mercy, and in this message I find hope for all those especially the Muslims, and the Chinese and all those who by other means have the message of Christ with held from them. I cannot believe that with God’s Divine Mercy He would allow so many, who through no fault of their own are kept from His Son, to fall into eternal damnation.

Is there a hell? Do people go there? Are there Catholics and Protestants and all different classifications of people in hell? Yes, but I believe that God tries in everyway to save as many as possible, even if they aren’t Christians.

Perhaps, as some private revelations eludes to it comes down that single instant of death, and you are faced with a decision, Jesus asks you if you accept Him, and those that do accept Him are saved, even if they have lived as good Muslims all their lives.

In short, I don’t know, but I believe that God is good, and as the good God I don’t think He would condemn people who never got a chance to either accept or reject Jesus…

I’m sorry–I’m not understanding your point?

How does the above answer the objection that your saying that there are nonChristians in heaven contradicts the Bible?

Jesus said that no one gets to the Father except through him. He is the way, the truth and the life.

And yet you’re saying that people could be in heaven who aren’t Christian.

How do you defend this?

 

[USMC_Convert]

I’m sorry–I’m not understanding your point?

How does the above answer the objection that your saying that there are nonChristians in heaven contradicts the Bible?

Jesus said that no one gets to the Father except through him. He is the way, the truth and the life.

And yet you’re saying that people could be in heaven who aren’t Christian.

How do you defend this?

Well since you don’t like my answer, but you say the same thing, how do you?

 

[PRmerger]

Well since you don’t like my answer, but you say the same thing, how do you?

I would say that those who are in heaven who are not Christian embraced Christ because he is the Eternal Logos, the Truth Incarnate. They loved the Truth, even though they knew not Him Who Is Truth.

Now, I will add a parallel which you seemed to reject: outside the Church there is no salvation.

This is a teaching of the Church, and if you reject this teaching, this is a grave thing indeed.

But if someone can be in heaven without Christ,because one can be informally united to Him, one can also be in heaven without the Catholic Church, because one can be informally united to His Body, the Catholic Church.

 

[PRmerger]

Well since you don’t like my answer, but you say the same thing, how do you?

So, I would like to summarize with this, USMC: you must accept the teaching that outside of the Catholic Church there is no salvation.

It is nothing more, and nothing less, than an extension of Christ’s teaching of: outside of Me you cannot be saved.

 

[USMC_Convert]

So, I would like to summarize with this, USMC: you must accept the teaching that outside of the Catholic Church there is no salvation.

It is nothing more, and nothing less, than an extension of Christ’s teaching of: outside of Me you cannot be saved.

My answer is I accept it blindly, much as I accepted several Catholic teaching when I first converted only to be convinced of them later on.

My argument is not that the Catholic teaching of “outside the Church there is no salvation” is wrong, my argument is, there are souls in heaven that were not part of the Catholic Church while on earth.

Do I understand? No, but I accept it and believe it, I profess it, knowing that it is quite possibly just something that is just beyond my limited understanding.

As St. Peter said, where else would we go, you have the words of eternal life…

I don’t understand, but I believe, because it is He who canst neither deceive nor be deceived that taught it.

 

[PRmerger]

My answer is I accept it blindly, much as I accepted several Catholic teaching when I first converted only to be convinced of them later on.

My argument is not that the Catholic teaching of “outside the Church there is no salvation” is wrong, my argument is, there are souls in heaven that were not part of the Catholic Church while on earth.

Do I understand? No, but I accept it and believe it, I profess it, knowing that it is quite possibly just something that is just beyond my limited understanding.

As St. Peter said, where else would we go, you have the words of eternal life…

I don’t understand, but I believe, because it is He who canst neither deceive nor be deceived that taught it.

Firstly, let me caution you about using “I accept it blindly” as an answer as to why you believe a particular teaching.

No one us should be accepting anything from the Church blindly.

That we must give our religious assent, and then try to understand it subsequently? Certainly.

That seems to be what you’re saying. And that’s great.

This: “…for a man may be annoyed that he cannot work out a mathematical problem, without doubting that it admits an answer”.–Cardinal Newman

But not blind acceptance.

 

[PRmerger]

My argument is not that the Catholic teaching of “outside the Church there is no salvation” is wrong,

Great.

my argument is, there are souls in heaven that were not part of the Catholic Church while on earth.

Then you are quite consonant with Catholic teaching.

So, someone can be in heaven without being Catholic.
Just like someone can be in heaven without being Christian.

 

[USMC_Convert]

Firstly, let me caution you about using “I accept it blindly” as an answer as to why you believe a particular teaching.

No one us should be accepting anything from the Church blindly.

That we must give our religious assent, and then try to understand it subsequently? Certainly.

That seems to be what you’re saying. And that’s great.

This: “…for a man may be annoyed that he cannot work out a mathematical problem, without doubting that it admits an answer”.–Cardinal Newman

But not blind acceptance.

Good answer, I agree, but I also say that we must be careful not to think that we can understand all the mysteries of God, who works and teaches us through the Church. For if we really think that then we are putting ourselves on par with God.

We must be willing to accept that some things are mysteries, some things are beyond us and have total faith, without question, in God.

 

[KingdomSon]

This might help you fill out your Catholic teachings on extra Ecclesiam nulla salus KingdomSon.

CCC 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

CCC 848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”

Yes, since with God nothing shall be impossible (Luke 1:37) this, as stated above, is an exception to the rule of entrance into the Kingdom of God (John 3:5). Even in CCC 1257 it states the following…

"God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments."

Our Lord Jesus Christ’s declaration that no man can be saved without being born again of water and the Holy Ghost is it not a literal dogma of the Catholic Church?

Even your quote from the CCC verifies this…

CCC 1257The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit…"

Cathoholic:

You are to affirm ALL of the teachings of the Church KingdomSon.

I agree. That’s what I have been showing by quoting former Popes who proclaimed boldly that Outside the Catholic Church There is No Salvation, some even speaking this “ex cathedra”(from the Chair of Peter).

Cathoholic:

You might reply: “Well I didn’t know any better; I’m not a Catholic”

But now you DO know

.

Yes I DO know Cathoholic that Catholics don’t form definite doctrinal conclusions from the teachings of a father of the Church or a handful of fathers: a Catholic goes by the infallible teaching of the Church proclaimed by the Popes and a Catholic assents to the teaching of the fathers, and others in the Church, when they are in universal and constant agreement from the beginning and in line with Catholic dogmatic teaching.

Now, would you agree?

KingdomSon