Baptism-requirements of parents

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sean3009

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This may have been addressed in an earlier thread but I can’t spend innumerable hours searching under baptism to find the specific answer I need. So, with your patience, here’s my question…

I am a practicing Catholic married to an evangelical. We were married by a protestant(non-denom) minister with permission/dispensation(?) from the church. We are now expecting our first child after 10 years of marriage(We had begun to think that we would not be able to have children). If I remember correctly, I would have been granted permission to marry under the expectation that I raise any children in the Catholic faith. It also appears from my research that in order to have my child baptized there would be a similar expectation that I raise him Catholic. I would love nothing more than to do this, but my wife is adamently opposed to having her child raised in a “religion” rather than upon faith(Translation–I think–that he would come to God through a personal relationship with Jesus and not by having it drilled into him by a dogmatic institution). I realize that I may still be able to get him baptized (or at least that is my impression based upon several threads in this forum) because I cannot be penalized if I have a hostile spouse. However, could I really fulfill the reasonable expectation, even then, as I know that it is not likely our child will be raised Catholic?

This has been a very trying time for me because I greatly desire that our child be baptized whereas my wife looks upon it more casually. Her concern is in finding a good church with activities for kids and every member brings a bible to church where our child can learn about faith and prepare for the more important day when he decides to commit his life to Jesus. In fact, her lack of concern for baptism is reflected in her own inaction regarding the uncertainty of her own baptism. Strike that, her main concern is that she not be required for him to be raised a Catholic in order for him to be Baptized. She has also said that she would be even more troubled by a church that would make such a request.

Finally, I am torn by the desire to have my child baptized but not wanting to commit to such a sacred ceremony if I know I would not be able to fulfill my obligations. I would apprecaite any advice, comments, or words of comfort you may have on this issue.
 
First of all there are protestant groups who do Baptize infants, eg Lutherans so it shouldnt be an issue if its a infant. Call a lutheran church and have your wife ask if lutherans baptize infants.

Also one thing thats odd about some protestant groups is that they believe that while the parents have the responsibility to bring up good kids, ie provide food, shelter, comfort, doctor, school, etc, on the other hand when it comes to a child’s spiritual well being like Baptism all of the sudden the parents have nothing to do with it and it becomes the childs “choice”. This is absurd to me, why force the child to go to school and do chores and such in hopes of making them a better person, but in matters of salvation the parents have no part?

Have you talked to a priest yet about this? Im not sure of the answer, but I would guess the child should be Baptized even if your ability to keep them in a Catholic atmosphere is not perfect.
 
Catholic Dude,

Infant baptism is not an issue, although my wife does not see the point or more specifically the reasoning that it has a salvatory nature when the child cannot ackmowledge that salvation. She essentially does not have a problem with baptizng our infant son, just with doing it if we have to agree to raise him as a Catholic–to which she is adamently opposed.

As for salvation, I have found most Protestants, especially fundamentalists and evangelicals–the category in which my wife falls, believe it to be a personal experience. It is an act on the part of the believer as opposed to the Catholic view(I hope I have this right–my own foundation in the beliefs of my faith are very rudimentary) which places an emphasis upon God’s actions upon us. So, in essence, they have no concern about the child’s salvation as infants and young children as they are unable to make the mature decision for Christ. Her priority is to find a good, “bible” church with an excellent youth program so our son will actually make that decision for Christ for himself when he is old enough to understand that choice.

I have not talked with a priest. (I do have feelers out to see if I can find one who is a little more congenial than some of the ones with whom I have experience.) Part of the reason why I posted this thread was little fear about getting a priest who would be judgmental about the situation and apparently my lack of judgment when deciding to marry a non-Catholic. Even if he has to lay down the law with me, I would like some comfort that I am not a bad man. I love my wife and I love God. I especially rejoice at the gift he has graced our marriage with, but it is also a sore test of my faith. I have often dispaired at the situation I seemed to have placed myself into.

Thanks for the reply.
 
They say that there are more flies attracted to honey than there are to vinegar, and that is generally good advice.

However, if you want to throw a curve, ask her, unrelated to any question about your child, how she feels about male headship. Keep up the conversation (it needs to be you questioning and her talking), unti the hole is big enough that she has dug. Then exhibit some leadership.

I am all for decisons being mutually made, as long as the made decisions make sense and comport with the moral code. She seems to want you to violate your deeply felt and held beliefs and seems to see no problem with that. You both married each other; she married a Catholic and should not be surprised that the one she married acts like one.

As an aside; from the thread, it seems as if she might agree to baptism but is putting her foot down about church and future training.

It seems as if you are trying to decide something before decision time has come.

It also sounds as if you might not be attending Mass as regularly as you could? If so, there is only one cure - go to Mass.
 
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sean3009:
This may have been addressed in an earlier thread but I can’t spend innumerable hours searching under baptism to find the specific answer I need. So, with your patience, here’s my question…

I am a practicing Catholic married to an evangelical. We were married by a protestant(non-denom) minister with permission/dispensation(?) from the church. We are now expecting our first child after 10 years of marriage(We had begun to think that we would not be able to have children). If I remember correctly, I would have been granted permission to marry under the expectation that I raise any children in the Catholic faith. It also appears from my research that in order to have my child baptized there would be a similar expectation that I raise him Catholic. I would love nothing more than to do this, but my wife is adamently opposed to having her child raised in a “religion” rather than upon faith(Translation–I think–that he would come to God through a personal relationship with Jesus and not by having it drilled into him by a dogmatic institution). I realize that I may still be able to get him baptized (or at least that is my impression based upon several threads in this forum) because I cannot be penalized if I have a hostile spouse. However, could I really fulfill the reasonable expectation, even then, as I know that it is not likely our child will be raised Catholic?

This has been a very trying time for me because I greatly desire that our child be baptized whereas my wife looks upon it more casually. Her concern is in finding a good church with activities for kids and every member brings a bible to church where our child can learn about faith and prepare for the more important day when he decides to commit his life to Jesus. In fact, her lack of concern for baptism is reflected in her own inaction regarding the uncertainty of her own baptism. Strike that, her main concern is that she not be required for him to be raised a Catholic in order for him to be Baptized. She has also said that she would be even more troubled by a church that would make such a request.

Finally, I am torn by the desire to have my child baptized but not wanting to commit to such a sacred ceremony if I know I would not be able to fulfill my obligations. I would apprecaite any advice, comments, or words of comfort you may have on this issue.
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I think you need to begin with reminding your spouse that she promised as a condition of the permission for you to mary her. That she would not interfere in your practice of the Catholic faith and your obligation to Baptize and raise any children in the Catholic Faith.
 
If you are a Catholic, you are bound to baptize your child as soon as possible after birth and to raise him or her in the faith. Your spouse, since you were married with the blessing of the Catholic church and presumably received pre-marriage instruction along with your dispensation, was made aware of your obligation at that time. Either you continue to practice your Catholic faith and abide by its laws, including those regarding handing on the faith in its fullness to your children, or you abdicate. I urge you to get spiritual direction from you pastor on this.
 
OTM said,

“It seems as if you are trying to decide something before decision time has come.”

OTM,

What decision are you referring to: baptism or raising my child Catholic? My dilemma is that I think both decisions are intimately linked. How can I baptize my child and obligate myself to raise him as Catholic when I know there is a good chance, due to the resistence of my wife, that may not occur? And yet, I feel it is vitaly important to have the child baptized, whereas, she does not. Or, at least not in the same way as we Catholics believe.
 
Thanks to all for your comments. I am getting more grounded in my faith and have been attending mass on a regular basis. I hope to talk to a priest soon, but getting an appointment is a little more difficult than I anticipated. Hence my posting this thread. I don’t want to belabor the point much further. To do so would, I think, would imply some incincerity on my part and I don’t want to give that impression as I want to do what is right by my faith and by God. So, in conclusion, I would like to ask a couple of questions just to clarify my understanding of baptism and it’s “rules”, for lack of a better word.
  1. One of the parents must be a baptized Catholic.
  2. The godparents must be baptized, practicing Catholics.
  3. The church/priest must have a reasonable expectation that the
    child will be raised as a Catholic.
  4. I probably should not have my child baptized if I could not fulfill
    my obligation to raise that child as a Catholic.
Gratefully,

Sean3009
 
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sean3009:
  1. One of the parents must be a baptized Catholic.
  2. The godparents must be baptized, practicing Catholics.
  3. The church/priest must have a reasonable expectation that the
    child will be raised as a Catholic.
  4. I probably should not have my child baptized if I could not fulfill
    my obligation to raise that child as a Catholic.
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I’ve been reading this thread and was going to respond earlier but my other computer was not being agreeable…

I just wanted to respond to your four points. You seem to understand points 1-3. As for point 4, that’s a bit tougher. I think you still have a serious obligation to baptize your child. But it may be that you need to delay that obligation under certain circumstances. That’s a bit different from thinking you shouldn’t do it.

If I were you, I’d push to have the child baptized and then begin to work on your wife’s education. You have six or seven years before your child would begin a formal Catholic education anyways.

Teach your child yourself. Catholic children are also taught Bible stories and hopefully learn to see Catholism as a ‘Faith’ instead of a mere set of religious practices. Prayers like the “Our Father” and the “Hail Mary” are scripture based. Most Evangelicals believe we have guardian angels.

Catholics and Evangelicals do have some major differences in beliefs regarding salvation, the Eucharist, and papal authority but in seeing you raising your child your wife may come to “Faith” herself.
 
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sean3009:
Thanks to all for your comments. I am getting more grounded in my faith and have been attending mass on a regular basis. I hope to talk to a priest soon, but getting an appointment is a little more difficult than I anticipated. Hence my posting this thread. I don’t want to belabor the point much further. To do so would, I think, would imply some incincerity on my part and I don’t want to give that impression as I want to do what is right by my faith and by God. So, in conclusion, I would like to ask a couple of questions just to clarify my understanding of baptism and it’s “rules”, for lack of a better word.
  1. One of the parents must be a baptized Catholic.
  2. The godparents must be baptized, practicing Catholics.
  3. The church/priest must have a reasonable expectation that the
    child will be raised as a Catholic.
  4. I probably should not have my child baptized if I could not fulfill
    my obligation to raise that child as a Catholic.
Gratefully,

Sean3009
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  1. One of the parents must be a baptized Catholic.
One of the parents must be Baptized and practicing.
  1. The godparents must be baptized, practicing Catholics.
Baptized, Practicing, in good standing and Confirmed, over 16.
  1. The church/priest must have a reasonable expectation that the
    child will be raised as a Catholic.
Yes
  1. I probably should not have my child baptized if I could not fulfill
    my obligation to raise that child as a Catholic.
Only if you know for certain that there would be no hope for you to follow through with raising the child in the Catholic Faith. This seems remote since you are a practicing Catholic it only requires that you take the child to Mass with you and do your best to pass on the Catholic Faith. The reception of the Sacrament of Baptism is so important for salvation it should only be posponed only for very serious reasons. If there is any possibility that you could teach your child the Catholic faith you should have them Baptized.
 
Br. Rich SFO:
I think you need to begin with reminding your spouse that she promised as a condition of the permission for you to mary her. That she would not interfere in your practice of the Catholic faith and your obligation to Baptize and raise any children in the Catholic Faith.
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Br Rich…you took the words right out of my mouth…err…fingertips! It is one of my biggest pet peeves when people “forget” to take everything about their marriage as seriously as they should. I know before I got married we discussed our feelings about having children, how to parent them including their spiritual upbringing right along with all the other stuff like whose house do we go to for Thanksgiving and do we exchange presents at Christmas with the in-laws…come on, how important is that stuff when compared to how you will raise any children you may be blessed with?
 
Sean3009, congratulations on your child’s conception! I pray your wife will have an uneventful pregnancy.

I would go ahead and have the baby baptized if your wife will allow it. If you had the dispensation from form your promised to do all in your power to baptize and raise the children Catholic. (Brother Rich is wrong to remind your wife of her promise not to interfere. That was changed c. 1970 and your wife did not promise anything but was merely made aware of your promise.)

Your promise is limited by the clause “all in my power”. Here she seems more open to the baptizing than the raising issue. Start with the baptism and pray and live the faith from there. You may have to expose him to more of her church than you want but if that is all you can do in your power and preserve the sacrament of your marriage, you will not be excommunicated nor censored. He may not be Catholic or even raised Catholic but that too may be outside your power,

One thing is to follow what you discussed 10 years ago. She can’t change those agreements you made with each other by herself and neither can you.

In 2002 my wife wanted to not raise the kids Catholic anymore and I reminded her that WE agreed we would and SHE could not change that decision by herself. Our case is different because I know that if I did not take them to Mass, they would rarely attend her church for study or worship. So our choice is practicing Catholics or nominal Presbyterians.

Mass should be part of his weekly routine and pray and study the faith with him. Do not let her take him to her church without also taking him to yours just as much or more. If he is 7 and now needs to go to Mass then you will have a hrader time convincing HIM let alone his mother.

As far as pastors expecting children to be raised in the faith the pastor professes, I think that is pretty standard. My wife is a nominal Presbyterian but the pastor there is a great Christian. They want the kids to make Christ there own but follow Paul’s teaching that included children. I can’t imagine her annoyance on that. Your child may be baptized and never recieve his first Communion but do what you can to teach him. Pray for your family as we all will and God will provide.

Pastor shop if you must.

There are a few resources at www.aifw.org
for those where one spouse believes in infant baptism and the other does not. Check sacramental resources.

Be flexible but have a plan in place. Do not let her dominate the religious field by having both a morning and evening service on Sunday and Wednesday night activities like AWANA. That would leave no time for CCD or only Saturday night for Mass.

I would agree with your hesitation at 2nd grade. Don’t let him confess or commune if he will not be going to Mass weekly. Here though I would baptize him and hope for the best.
 
genealogist said:
(Brother Rich is wrong to remind your wife of her promise not to interfere. That was changed c. 1970 and your wife did not promise anything but was merely made aware of your promise.)
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I agree that the Church eliminated the written promise with the 1983 code. However many pastors (at least the ones I know) still solicit a verbal assurance that the non-Catholic will not interfere in the obligations of the Catholic.
 
I want to reiterate Br. Rich’s words that you have an obligation to TRY to raise your children in the faith. That obligation exists from your marital vows, and not the child’s baptism. It is reinforced at baptism.
  1. Your wife is not obligated to raise your child in the church.
  2. You are obligated to do all you can to raise your child in the church. (That would include Baptism…)
If your wife’s insistence to the contrary prevents you from raising your children solely in the Catholic Church, that does not mean that you have failed in your obligation to raise them Catholic. The church does not place undue burden on you, and expects you to do only what is possible in your situation. It appears that baptism might be possible, which would make it prudent to do so.

These threads might help:

How do couples of mixed faith approach marriage and raising children?

Can a child be baptized into two churches?

Does the Church recognize non-Catholic baptisms?

Do Catholics ever have their children dedicated?

Are there harmful effects from a second infant baptism?

What effect do multiple baptisms have?

Is there a precedent for baptism in the Old Testament?

Are all validly baptized people actually Catholics?

Is the sacrament called “baptism” or “christening”?

Infant Baptism

Can a baby be baptized by the strong faith of others?

What happens to an un-baptized child who dies?

Should Catholics wait to be baptized as adults?

Is Church teaching on infant baptism a doctrine or dogma of the faith and what’s the difference?

How should I share my faith with my daughter?

Baptism and Salvation
 
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sean3009:
OTM said,

“It seems as if you are trying to decide something before decision time has come.”

OTM,

What decision are you referring to: baptism or raising my child Catholic? My dilemma is that I think both decisions are intimately linked. How can I baptize my child and obligate myself to raise him as Catholic when I know there is a good chance, due to the resistence of my wife, that may not occur? And yet, I feel it is vitaly important to have the child baptized, whereas, she does not. Or, at least not in the same way as we Catholics believe.
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My reference was to the raising your child as Catholic. Yes, they are linked, but one preceeds the other, and usually by at least several years.

Your first hurdle is having the child baptized. And you may try to resolve both at the same time and find that you are hindered in doing the first, which is going to put a crimp, I would imagine, in your doing the second; if for no other reason that you are more likely not to aggresively persue the second if you haven’t accomplished the first.

One step at a time. Supposedly she made some sort of promise; you might want to explore that.
 
Thank you all. I feel more confident about what I need to do. First, and foremost, my son NEEDS baptism. Although my promise to raise him Catholic is important, I cannot let fear of failing to fulfill that promise interfere with the all important first step–baptism. Now if I can just get a priest to call me back, I can get the ball rolling.

As a side note, my wife has been attending mass with me over the past couple of years. Apparently being able to go to a 6:00 P.M. mass(church service) on Sunday is very appealing to her. I am praying that our time together in the Church will win her heart. She is a lovely women and I love her greatly. I hope you do not get the wrong impression of her from my brief description of our troubles. I just think that she has 30+ years of fundamentalism (probably rooted in some anti-Catholicism) to overcome before she can truly appreciate my faith. It will likely be a hard road, but one well worth it as I do believe God has a plan for us.

Sean 3009
 
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sean3009:
Thank you all. I feel more confident about what I need to do. First, and foremost, my son NEEDS baptism. Although my promise to raise him Catholic is important, I cannot let fear of failing to fulfill that promise interfere with the all important first step–baptism. Now if I can just get a priest to call me back, I can get the ball rolling.

As a side note, my wife has been attending mass with me over the past couple of years. Apparently being able to go to a 6:00 P.M. mass(church service) on Sunday is very appealing to her. I am praying that our time together in the Church will win her heart. She is a lovely women and I love her greatly. I hope you do not get the wrong impression of her from my brief description of our troubles. I just think that she has 30+ years of fundamentalism (probably rooted in some anti-Catholicism) to overcome before she can truly appreciate my faith. It will likely be a hard road, but one well worth it as I do believe God has a plan for us.

Sean 3009
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God bless you for your desire to be faithful in this…I suspect in time your wife will fall in love with the Church, especially if she keeps coming to Mass with you. Please don’t pressure her --don’t even mention it–and she may surprise you someday when your child is older.

Do baptize the child–remember this is a sacrament among many Christian faiths --not just a Catholic sacrament. Christians who enter the Catholic Church with valid baptisms are not re-baptized. (The formula is important though.)

A couple of years ago JP II had reminded the German bishops not to put parents through too many hoops to get their children baptized. His remarks were published in Osservatore Romano He told them at their ad limina visit that baptism was God’s free gift to the children…it is prudent and certainly helpful in the child’s formation if the parents are diligent about the practice of their faith. But the sacrament itself is what we say washes away original sin, infuses sanctifying grace, and initiates us as God’s children. If the parent is asking for it on behalf of the child, I would think that most pastors–at least those interested in saving souls-- should comply. Sometimes the children may lead their parents back to a more active practice of the faith…
 
Just thought I would share this with you from the Vatican newspaper, recently.
A Call for Rediscovery of Sacrament of Baptism
Father Cantalamessa Comments on This Sunday’s Gospel

ROME, JAN. 6, 2006 (Zenit.org).- Here is a translation of the commentary that Capuchin Father Raniero Cantalamessa, the preacher to the Pontifical Household, prepared on the Gospel of this Sunday, the Baptism of Jesus. The solemnity of Epiphany was celebrated today in Italy.

"…Was it that Jesus also needed to be baptized, as we do? Of course not. With that gesture, he wanted to show that he had become one of us. Above all, he wanted to put an end to the baptism of “water” and inaugurate that “of the Spirit.” It was not the water in the Jordan that sanctified Jesus, but Jesus who sanctified the water. Not only the water of the Jordan, but that of all fonts of the world.

The feast of the Baptism of Jesus is the annual occasion to reflect on our own baptism. A question people often ask themselves about baptism is: Why baptize small children? Why not wait until they are older and can decide freely for themselves? It is a serious question, but it can conceal a deceit. In procreating a child and giving him life, do parents first ask for his permission? Convinced that life is an immense gift, they rightly assume that one day the child will be grateful for it. A person is not asked for permission to be given a gift, and baptism is essentially this: the gift of life given to man by the merits of Christ. …

…Baptism expresses its full meaning precisely when it is desired and decided upon personally, as a free and conscious adherence to Christ and his Church, although the validity and gift of being baptized as children must not be disregarded for the reasons above explained. Personally, I am grateful to my parents for having had me baptized in the first days of my life. It is not the same to live one’s childhood and youth with or without sanctifying grace!"

catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=2891
 
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stbruno:
The fate of children who are not baptized is no different from that of the Holy Innocents, which we celebrated just after Christmas.
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The fact that they died without Baptism is the only thing they share. More than likely however all those children of Jewish parents were already presented in the temple on the eighth day after their birth. Those children were already members of God’s people. An unbaptized infant or child today is not, until Baptism a member of the mystical body of Christ. And is subject to the attacks of satan.

The Holy Innocents were murdered because of one mans hatred for Christ. Most children today do not die because of hatred of Christ or because their parents are Christian. Most die because of accidents, illnesses and violence, which does not qualify them automatically for Martyrdom.
 
Most however say whatever is necessary to get to the altar, so to speak.
 
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