Baptism: Sacrament or Ordinance

[Kaily]

Ask and ye shall receive:

bringyou.to/apologetics/audio.htm

Awesome!! Thank you!!

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Yeah don’t worry Kaily, I too had alot of problems finding free Catholic podcasts. I mean, my library is huge, but free is still good, right Then I wandered onto that little gem of a website on a forum, where I believe it was James White’s sister (who converted) that recommended it, if I am not mistaken. I clicked on the link and my eyes widened, drool ran down my lip…I was very pleased.

 

[crazzeto]

Yeah don’t worry Kaily, I too had alot of problems finding free Catholic podcasts. I mean, my library is huge, but free is still good, right Then I wandered onto that little gem of a website on a forum, where I believe it was James White’s sister (who converted) that recommended it, if I am not mistaken. I clicked on the link and my eyes widened, drool ran down my lip…I was very pleased.

Just a note on podcasts… If you use Zune (or I imagin iTunes since it’s bigger than Zune) then EWTN offers all of their Podcasts through the Zune (iTuens) service that they offer through their website.

Additionally you can get the daily readings published by the USCCB and yes it’s all out of NAB.

Additionally Dr. Scott Hahn has sunday bible reflections on Zune

In fact a quick search of “Catholic” on Zune brought up 49 podcasts

I like using my Mp3 player software since it will automatically refresh all the podcasts for me when new content is available.

Oh yeah, and I like John Martinoni’s free “audio tapes” (available in mp3) available over at www.biblechristiansociety.com. His apologetics is entirly based out of Sacrade Scripture, with exception for apologetics targeted at other Catholics who hold views not supported by the faith.

 

[Kaily]

Yeah don’t worry Kaily, I too had alot of problems finding free Catholic podcasts. I mean, my library is huge, but free is still good, right Then I wandered onto that little gem of a website on a forum, where I believe it was James White’s sister (who converted) that recommended it, if I am not mistaken. I clicked on the link and my eyes widened, drool ran down my lip…I was very pleased.

James’ Whites sister converted??? : O Wow!! is her testimony somehwere, he must think she is doomed to hell now.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Actually yes, a big deal was made of it, James was very bitter from what I can make out about what is posted on the web, and that is why I am hesitant to mention it. I wouldn’t want to offend James, his sister, or anybody else ya’ know? But the info is out there.

 

[NotWorthy]

James’ Whites sister converted??? : O Wow!! is her testimony somehwere, he must think she is doomed to hell now.

Her testimony is in Pat Madrid’s “Surprised by Truth” - I think its Volume 3.

I don’t believe Mr. White is speaking to his sister any more, but that was 4 or 5 years ago that I read the book.

 

[PJM]

=Kaily;5817973]Hi,

I’m Roman Catholic, but was listening to William Lane Craig on the Doctrine of the Church today, and had a hard time reconciling some of what he said with our belief in Baptism as a Sacrament (Not misread here, i DO believe Baptism is a sacrament, and conveys grace to the soul)

But how do you explain these verses he brought up?

For example:

He cited 2 Thes. 2:13-14 which mentions, election, calling, sanctification and faith as means of salvation, and does not mention Baptism,

*For starters Christian Baptism “causes” each of the things mentioned as the natural effects of baptism.

Election = called by name by God = Baptism

Calling = Entry in the the community of Christ NEW Chosen people

Sanctification = Perfect sanctification as the Sacrament of Baptism removes all past and present sins as well as the lingering effects of sin, to the point of making one, at that very moment ready and suitably perfected for entrance into heaven

Faith = Baptism is the very root of faith, believe and understanding.*

Galations 3:1-5, 14,he stated that they put on Christ by hearing,

Indeed ! But one enters into union, communion nad community with Chrsit through Baptism!

1 Cor. 1:13-17, when Paul says he did not come to baptize but to preach the Gospel

***Read 1 st. Cor. 12…

It is one of four places Paul Speaks of Spiritual Gifts. Paul was by far the most religiously informed, trained teacher of all of the Apostles. He knew well the extent of his spiritual gifts and further that God was calling Him to teach and preach [which he was exceedingly well suited for], knowing that he could annoint priest and make Bishops [who too taught] but at this point in church history Paul was in a “class by himself” that could and would handle the very necessary Baptisms.***

He says that water doesn’t necessarily coincide with water baptism, the Holy Spirit was given to believers apart from Baptism, gave the example Acts 18:25- Acts 19: 7 Apollos did not need to be re-baptized, but the others were who did not even hear of the HOly Spirit

***He is speaking of the third of the three sacraments if “Iniation.” Baptism, Eucharist and Confirmation. There is an out-pouring of the Holy Spirit to varying degrees in all three Sacraments.

When one is Baprized, one does receive the chrism oil signifying the HS, but as infant Baptism has been made common practice, there is a further and more specific and profound out-pouring og the HS in Confirmation, where one is of sufficient age and reason to commit for themselves, and not rely on parentail proxy.***

Then he gave example of instances when people received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized, for example Cornelius and the other gentiles (he also brought up the counterarguments for some of these)

God is the giver of GREAT and good gifts. They are gifts, they are from God and God can do as God Wills. Remember the story of the workers at the meeting place and the Owner went out early in the morning, again at noon and again a hour before quiting time. When the day was not he instructed his Stuart to plat the last frist, and paid them for an entire day even thought hey had only worked for an hour? The day long wrkers thought thay would receive more. The owner told that I did you no injustice, I paid you judt as we agreed. Only God knows the mind of God. Look at "the good-thief."

He also said all the gifts ascribed to baptism are also ascribed to faith such as, forgiveness of sins, union with Christ, membership in Church, Regeneration of Holy Spirit.

Here he is puting forth Protestant theology. Baptism does indeed do all of these things. Faith, in and of itself may lead to, but does not cause these same effects.

How do you reconcile that one has to be baptized in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, when there are examples in Scripture when the Holy Spirit is given apart from being baptized (i’m not questioning the Catholic position, just having a hard time understanding this)

***I don’t nor does Christ. Proper Chrsitian baptism is with water AND in the Name of THEE Father, and THee Son and Thee Holy Spirit.

Acts.2:[38] And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. ***

Matt.28:[19] Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"

Love and prayers,

Pat

 

[Foreigner]

Hi,

I’m Roman Catholic, but was listening to William Lane Craig on the Doctrine of the Church today, and had a hard time reconciling some of what he said with our belief in Baptism as a Sacrament (Not misread here, i DO believe Baptism is a sacrament, and conveys grace to the soul)

But how do you explain these verses he brought up?

For example:

He cited 2 Thes. 2:13-14 which mentions, election, calling, sanctification and faith as means of salvation, and does not mention Baptism,

Or Repentance, Or Calling upon the name of the Lord, etc. etc.

Galations 3:1-5, 14,he stated that they put on Christ by hearing,

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (Galatians 3:26-27).

Notice also how Paul equates faith with being baptized. This is because the way you go about putting faith in Christ is baptism into Christ.

1 Cor. 1:13-17, when Paul says he did not come to baptize but to preach the Gospel

Abuse of Scripture. Read the context and see that Paul is saying he did not come to baptize “in my name” (the name of Paul) but to preach the gospel of Christ into whom we are baptized.

He says that water doesn’t necessarily coincide with water baptism, the Holy Spirit was given to believers apart from Baptism, gave the example Acts 18:25- Acts 19: 7 Apollos did not need to be re-baptized,

What does “re-baptism” have to do with anything.

but the others were who did not even hear of the HOly Spirit

Baptism of John occurred before Jesus rose from the dead and the Spirit was bestowed. See John 7:39.

Then he gave example of instances when people received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized, for example Cornelius and the other gentiles (he also brought up the counterarguments for some of these)

Read the entire chapter. God is here showing Peter that the Gentiles are accepted into the people of God and he does this by bestowing the Spirit upon Cornelius, a God-fearer.
The Spirit falling on someone is not something new… it occurred to people in the OT all the time who were not baptised. The idea in the NT is that we die in water baptism and are raised anew in the Spirit in Spirit baptism.

He also said all the gifts ascribed to baptism are also ascribed to faith such as, forgiveness of sins, union with Christ, membership in Church, Regeneration of Holy Spirit.

This is because they way you go about putting faith in Jesus is by being baptized. This person seems to think it is agreeing with something in your head.

How do you reconcile that one has to be baptized in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, when there are examples in Scripture when the Holy Spirit is given apart from being baptized (i’m not questioning the Catholic position, just having a hard time understanding this)

Thanks,
Kaily

Read Acts 1:8
Judea - Acts 2
Samaria - Acts 8
All the nations - Acts 10

Notice they believed and were baptized at Acts 8 and no Spirit given. The Spirit was given when Jews (Peter and John), who did not like Samaritans, came and give them the right hand of fellowship into the people of God. In Acts 10, the next people to come into the people of God were the Gentiles and Cornelius would be the first one. He was a God-fearer and appears to have been chosen by God as the first Gentile convert. As a sign God was accepting the Gentiles, and namely Cornelius, the Spirit comes upon him when Peter, the leader of the church, was present. The entire chapter is about God showing Peter the Gentiles were accepted into the people of God.

 

[fineca]

I listened to the same talks recently and posted this in response:

saunadebates.wordpress.com/2012/08/09/william-lane-craig-on-baptism/

 

[mackbrislawn]

That’s almost as bad as the argument that when Peter says to be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord, that what’s really washing away your sins is calling on the name of the Lord. This ignores the specific water-linked term “washing” as well as the fact that by being baptized into the name of Jesus, you ARE calling on the name of the Lord.

I think this is an excellent point. Baptism is the means by which we do call upon the name of the Lord. Peter makes this explicit in 1Pet 3:21, Baptism now saves you, not [as] the removal of dirt from the flesh, but [as] an appeal to God for a clear conscience.

Baptism, therefore is itself the appeal, or prayer to God to wash the dirt from one’s conscience. Baptism is the means that God clears our conscience. And how do we know this is true? Why, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I don’t know what an ordinance is. Is an ordinance something we do simply because we are ordered to do it? Jesus must have some good reason for telling us to be baptized, and that reason isn’t merely to see if we will do it!