Baptism saves, so where does faith come in?

[Cathoholic]

The question was:

Baptism saves, so where does faith come in?

Faith and Baptism are inseparable. Baptism is always associated with faith in some manner.

**
CCC1226b** . . . Always, Baptism is seen as connected with faith: “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household,” St. Paul declared to his jailer in Philippi. And the narrative continues . . . .

In the case of adults, it is a natural faith that gets supernaturalized through Baptism.

CCC 1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:

• **enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues; **
• giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
• allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.
  Thus the whole organism of the Christian’s supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.

In the case of infants, it is usually the faith of the parents to bring the baby to Baptism (along with Baptismal promises).

After Baptism, the infant (or adult as the case may be) possesses supernatural faith, hope, and charity, although the infant usually cannot “display” these virtues, he/she still has these supernatural virtues infused into him/her at the time of Baptism.

Baptism is always associated with “the faith of the Church” which is supernatural.

CCC 1282a Since the earliest times, Baptism has been administered to children, for it is a grace and a gift of God that does not presuppose any human merit; children are baptized in the faith of the Church.

When the infant or the adult receives Baptism, they receive SUPERNATURAL faith, hope, and charity through their Baptism (“baptized . . . . enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues”).

We can do nothing to initially “earn” justifying grace (“a gift of God that does not presuppose any human merit”). God makes the first move (“Prevenient Grace”).

But after we are justified, after we have these channels of grace opened to us, we must (assuming we can – i.e. an adult) GROW in our justification through cooperating with the channels of God’s justifying grace now available to us. **We must cooperate with the grace God gives us (supernatural faith, hope, and charity), lest we receive this “grace . . . in vain” (2nd Corinthians 6:1). **

COUNCIL OF TRENT CHAPTER X
THE INCREASE OF THE JUSTIFICATION RECEIVED
Having, therefore, been thus justified and made the friends and domestics of God,[49] advancing from virtue to virtue,[50] they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day,[51] that is, mortifying the members[52] of their flesh, and presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification,[53] they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith cooperating with good works, increase in that justice received through the grace of Christ and are further justified, as it is written:

    [INDENT]He that is just, let him be justified still;[54] and, Be not afraid to be justified even to death;[55] and again, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?[/INDENT]

Incidentally, this necessitating of growth in our justification is part of why justification is not a mere moment only . . . . but rather a moment followed by a lifelong process.

Hope this helps.

God bless.

Cathoholic

(More info below if interested . . .)

---

COUNCIL OF TRENT (Chapter XI) But no one, however much justified, should consider himself exempt from the observance of the commandments;

CCC 1813 The theological virtues are the foundation of Christian moral activity; they animate it and give it its special character. They inform and give life to all the moral virtues. They are infused by God into the souls of the faithful to make them capable of acting as his children and of meriting eternal life. They are the pledge of the presence and action of the Holy Spirit in the faculties of the human being. There are three theological virtues: faith, hope, and charity.77

CCC 161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. 42 "Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’"43

CCC 162a,c Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man. . . . we must beg the Lord to increase our faith;45 **it must be “working through charity,” abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church.**46

all bold and ul of CCC mine

 

[fhansen]

Obviously faith and works are necessary to continue in and grow in salvation, but it really could be argued that neither personal faith nor personal works are necessary, just baptism (like when a child is baptised and dies). A child in this case would be benefiting from the faith of his/her parents.

Obviously lack of faith as someone gets older would result in putting them in a state of sin, but then we are not saying faith saves but rather faith prevents damnation?
Would it be correct then to say: the grace of Baptism saves and faith and good works maintain that salvation? With faith and works not actually playing any part in the “saving” process

Baptism is also known as the “Sacrament of Faith”. It’s the first formal step or act or expression or profession of faith in response to grace for the believer. The faith of the family and community stand in for an infant due to their desire for it’s salvation, which in one capacity or another is always a communal effort.

 

[DavidFilmer]

A detailed and thoughtful reply

I think we agree far more than we disagree.

I maintain that the Church clearly teaches that salvation comes through the Grace of Christian Baptism, and through nothing else (I don’t use the word “alone” because, there be monsters). That Grace is possibly lost through mortal sin, but is restored by Sacramental absolution. I maintain that this is the sum total of the Catholic economy of salvation.

I will grant that, given sufficient circumstances, lack of faith or neglect of works could constitute mortal sin. As with all moral sin, this would require sufficient knowledge and consent to be mortally sinful.

Lack of faith or neglect of works ALONE cannot constitute mortal sin (and thus forfeit our Baptismal Grace). We must know that it is wrong, and deliberately consent to it as a personal choice.

 

[guanophore]

 I think we agree far more than we disagree.

Most likely.

I maintain that the Church clearly teaches that salvation comes through the Grace of Christian Baptism, and through nothing else (I don’t use the word “alone” because, there be monsters). That Grace is possibly lost through mortal sin, but is restored by Sacramental absolution.

You are right, I would not argue with this.

 I maintain that this is the sum total of the Catholic economy of salvation.

It just seems quite truncated, leaving out all of Eph. 2:10, and all the purpose for which we are justified in Baptism.

 I will grant that, given sufficient circumstances, lack of faith or neglect of works *could* constitute mortal sin.  As with all moral sin, this would require sufficient knowledge and consent to be mortally sinful.

Lack of faith or neglect of works ALONE cannot constitute mortal sin (and thus forfeit our Baptismal Grace). We must know that it is wrong, and deliberately consent to it as a personal choice.

Given my work in the parishes, I find it highly unlikely that even a minimally catechized Catholic would be unable to grasp that the great plethora of sins listed in Scripture are not mortal in nature.

 

[Abu]

DavidFilmer #23
I maintain that the Church clearly teaches that salvation comes through the Grace of Christian Baptism, and through nothing else
I maintain that this is the sum total of the Catholic economy of salvation

Far from the “sum total”.

As explained in *The Acts of Explicit Faith Necessary for Salvation *in Apologetics and Catholic Doctrine:
“without faith, it is impossible to please God. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who seek Him” [Heb 11:6].

Further, “there must also be hope, which is expressed in the belief that ’He rewards those who seek Him’. There must also be the holiness that comes from charity. Hebrews also says, ‘Strive….for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.’ ” [Heb 12:14].

“Implicit always in this love or charity is repentance and contrition for sin: Our Lord warns, ‘unless you repent you will all likewise perish.’ ” [Lk 13:3].
Apologetics and Catholic Doctrine, Archbishop Sheehan, revised by Fr Peter Joseph, The Saint Austin Press, 2001, p 288].

 

[DavidFilmer]

Far from the “sum total”.

As explained in [some book]

I cited the Catechism of the Catholic Church. You cite a book that is not sanctioned by the Office of the Holy See. You have to do better if you wish to dispute my source.

 

[Abu]

DavidFilmer #25
I cited the Catechism of the Catholic Church. You cite a book that is not sanctioned by the Office of the Holy See. You have to do better if you wish to dispute my source.

The error is in not realising what the CCC 1253 is actually teaching in post #2, which is that AT Baptism “nothing remains which would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God.”

Thus the same CCC in 127****4 emphasises that it is “the faithful Christian who has ’kept the seal’ until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life ‘marked with the sign of faith,’ with his baptismal faith in expectation of the blessed vision of God – the consummation of the faith – and in the hope of resurrection.”

Fancy misrepresenting the teaching of the Church so badly, as well as insinuating that Archbishop Sheehan and Fr Joseph in Apologetics and Catholic Doctrine, with a Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur, don’t know the faith

 

[DavidFilmer]

The error is in not realising what the CCC 1253 is actually teaching in post #2, which is that AT Baptism “nothing remains which would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God.”

Where is the error here? I cited CCC 1253 (as did you), which says exactly what you say it means. Was I in error in citing it, or is the CCC in error by saying it? Are we not actually saved by Christian Baptism, as CCC 1253 asserts? Or, do we immediately forfeit it afterward? To what error of mine do you refer? (and can you cite doctrine to substantiate my error?)

Thus the same CCC in 127****4 emphasises that it is “the faithful Christian who has ’kept the seal’ until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life ‘marked with the sign of faith,’ with his baptismal faith in expectation of the blessed vision of God – the consummation of the faith – and in the hope of resurrection.”

Yeeeees. If we avoid post-Baptismal mortal sin, we are assured salvation. This can be inferred from my post #2. I further explained, in this same post, that we can loose our Baptismal Grace through mortal sin, but it can be restored by Sacramental Confession. Do you consider this to also be in error?

Fancy misrepresenting the teaching of the Church so badly

Did I misrepresent anything? I think I got it right. Can you be more specific?

as well as insinuating that Archbishop Sheehan and Fr Joseph

Did I insult anyone? I pointed out that their works are not considered Catholic doctrine (as opposed to the Catechism, which is). That’s not an insult, because it is a fact. I could also make the same claim of Dr. Ludwig Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (a far more influential and respected work than what you cited), which, despite the title, is not actually dogmatic, as I am sure Fr. Ott would readily agree (and not feel the least bit insulted).

Why do you accuse me of misrepresenting Catholic doctrine and insulting respected Churchmen? In Christian charity, you ought to give an accounting of these accusations or withdraw them, because I hold them to be false testimony (lies) against me.

 

[guanophore]

Are we not actually saved by Christian Baptism, as CCC 1253 asserts?

Absolutely.

Or, do we immediately forfeit it afterward?

It is certainly possible.

To what error of mine do you refer? (and can you cite doctrine to substantiate my error?)

Concrete thinking. It may not by an error of yours, but a cognitive inability to entertain a “both/and” reality. I suspect you are doing the best you can, and are unable to hold two truths simultaneously.

If you are unable to integrate the citations already in the thread, it is best to commend you to your myopic view.

 Yeeeees.  If we avoid post-Baptismal mortal sin, we are assured salvation.  This can be inferred from my post #2.

This is certainly the teaching of the Church.

I further explained, in this same post, that we can loose our Baptismal Grace through mortal sin, but it can be restored by Sacramental Confession. Do you consider this to also be in error?

Nope.

Did I misrepresent anything? I think I got it right. Can you be more specific?

No.

It is incomplete.

Did I insult anyone?

No, it is just distressing to us that your position does not fully reflect the Catholic position on the role of works.

I pointed out that their works are not considered Catholic doctrine (as opposed to the Catechism, which is).

Sorry, I am not following this one.

Why do you accuse me of misrepresenting Catholic doctrine and insulting respected Churchmen?

Despite your desire to avoid this, it is how it appears. You are clinging to a very narrow view and it comes across as a misrepresentation of the faith.

In Christian charity, you ought to give an accounting of these accusations or withdraw them, because I hold them to be false testimony (lies) against me.

I don’t mean to hurt your feelings, David, since I am convinced you are very sincere. On the other hand, we cannot stand back and let a misrepresentation like this occur on a public thread in an apologetics forum because it will give the wrong impression to people who don’t know any better.

 

[Abu]

DavidFilmer #28
If we avoid post-Baptismal mortal sin, we are assured salvation. This can be inferred from my post #2.

What is needed is to “remain faithful to the demands of baptism” as the CCC 1274 teaches.

I further explained, in this same post, that we can loose our Baptismal Grace through mortal sin, but it can be restored by Sacramental Confession. Do you consider this to also be in error?

No.

DavidFilmer #23
I maintain that the Church clearly teaches that salvation comes through the Grace of Christian Baptism, and through nothing else
I maintain that this is the sum total of the Catholic economy of salvation

That is the misrepresentation.

Faith and works lead us to be favorably disposed to maintaining our Baptismal Grace, but are not necessary… a doctrine of the Church that many longtime Catholics are confused about (ie, faith and works are necessary for salvation - that’s actually a heresy).

False. “Faith without works is dead.” [Jam 2:26]

**What do Catholics teach about being saved?
Answer by Fr. John Echert on 09-02-2007 (EWTN): **
You are getting closer to the truth, but I must make further distinctions. The Catholic Church teaches that faith is necessary for salvation but not of itself sufficient. Our Lord Himself commanded that the disciples go forth and baptise the nations, which confers a particular grace of sanctification. This grace of sanctification is necessary for salvation – at least in the case of those who have access to baptism. The good works and repentance which you cite in James are essential, but we say that they proceed from supernatural charity as a motive, and not simply faith. In other words, someone can truly have faith in Christ by which they are drawn to Him and accept Him, but would not necessarily do acts of charity for the motive of faith alone – which is why we typically call them acts of charity, that is, supernatural love.
tinyurl.com/k27zdzs

 

[ready]

Obviously faith and works are necessary to continue in and grow in salvation, but it really could be argued that neither personal faith nor personal works are necessary, just baptism (like when a child is baptised and dies). A child in this case would be benefiting from the faith of his/her parents.

Obviously lack of faith as someone gets older would result in putting them in a state of sin, but then we are not saying faith saves but rather faith prevents damnation?
Would it be correct then to say: the grace of Baptism saves and faith and good works maintain that salvation? With faith and works not actually playing any part in the “saving” process

We are actually saved *by God’s supernatural grace *working through our Baptism, our faith and our charity (our supernatural works of charity, also known as good works). This means that we are saved by God’s supernatural grace and our cooperation with that grace. God bless you.

 

[guanophore]

The error is in not realising what the CCC 1253 is actually teaching in post #2, which is that AT Baptism “nothing remains which would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God.”

Thus the same CCC in 127****4 emphasises that it is “the faithful Christian who has ’kept the seal’ until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life ‘marked with the sign of faith,’ with his baptismal faith in expectation of the blessed vision of God – the consummation of the faith – and in the hope of resurrection.”

Fancy misrepresenting the teaching of the Church so badly, as well as insinuating that Archbishop Sheehan and Fr Joseph in Apologetics and Catholic Doctrine, with a Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur, don’t know the faith

Thanks for your citations and your efforts, Abu. I was hoping he would listen to your learned approach, but I guess not. :crying:

At least all the posts made here in an effort to correct him will let those reading the thread know the truth.

 

[guanophore]

Where is the error here? I cited CCC 1253 (as did you), which says exactly what you say it means. Was I in error in citing it, or is the CCC in error by saying it? Are we not actually saved by Christian Baptism, as CCC 1253 asserts? Or, do we immediately forfeit it afterward? To what error of mine do you refer? (and can you cite doctrine to substantiate my error?)

It is an error of omission, David. You are leaving out important elements of the doctrine of the faith, focusing myopically on the one piece that you have been able to grasp. We are all in agreement that the part you claim is true, it is just not the only part.

It is as if, in trying to describe a whole elephant, you have only got hold of the trunk.

Yeeeees. If we avoid post-Baptismal mortal sin, we are assured salvation. This can be inferred from my post #2. I further explained, in this same post, that we can loose our Baptismal Grace through mortal sin, but it can be restored by Sacramental Confession. Do you consider this to also be in error?

Nope.

Did I misrepresent anything? I think I got it right. Can you be more specific?

Yes, you are misrepresenting the Catholic conception of salvation by omitting important elements.

Of course you believe you got it right, and you are so certain you will not listen to anyone on the matter.

No, specificity will not help. If you cannot accept the documents posted in this thread then it is likely that nothing anyone can say will help. Your mind is quite made up. You need to cling to this truncated view because it meets some inner need for you.

 Why do you accuse me of misrepresenting Catholic doctrine and insulting respected Churchmen?  In Christian charity, you ought to give an accounting of these accusations or withdraw them, because I hold them to be false testimony (lies) against me.

They are the facts, as observed by the rest of the world.

 

[SirEwenii]

I think I am just more confused than ever now.

I am just going to have to say, “we are saved by grace through baptism faith and works.”

 

[Abu]

SirEwenii #34
I think I am just more confused than ever now.
I am just going to have to say, “we are saved by grace through baptism faith and works.”

No confusion anymore – well expressed, so hold on to that.

So be heartened by this:
faith and works
Answer by Bill Bilton on 04-16-2002 (EWTN):
Excerpts:
‘Catholics believe that faith and good works are both necessary for salvation, because such is the teaching of Jesus Christ. What Our Lord demands is ``faith that worketh by charity .’’ (Gal. 5 :6). Read Matthew 25:31-46, which describes the Last Judgment as being based on works of charity.’

‘The Catholic Church does not teach that purely human good works are meritorious for salvation; such works are not meritorious for salvation, according to her teaching. Only those good works performed when a person is in the state of grace – that is, as a branch drawing its spiritual life from the Vine which is Christ (John 15:4-6)–only these good deeds work toward our salvation, and they do so only by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ. These good works, offered to God by a soul in the state of grace (i.e., free of mortal sin, with the Blessed Trinity dwelling in the soul), are thereby supernaturally meritorious because they share in the work and in the merits of Christ. Such supernatural good works will not only be rewarded by God, but are necessary for salvation.’

‘St. Paul shows how the neglect of certain good works will send even a Christian believer to damnation: But if any man have not care of his own, and especially of those of his house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.'' (1 Tim. 5:8). Our Lord tells us that if the Master (God) returns and finds His servant sinning, rather than performing works of obedience, He shall separate him, and shall appoint him his portion with unbelievers.’’ (Luke 12:46).

Furthermore, Catholics know they will be rewarded in Heaven for their good works. Our Lord Himself said: For the Son of man . . . will render to every man according to his works.'' (Matt. 16:27). And whosoever shall give to drink to one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, amen I say to you, he shall not lose his reward.’’ (Matt. 10:42). Catholics believe, following the Apostle Paul, that every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labor.'' (1 Cor. 3:8). For God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown in his name, you who have ministered, and do minister to the saints.’’ (Heb. 6:10). ``I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith. As to the rest, there is laid up for me a crown of justice, which the Lord the just judge will render to me in that day: and not only to me, but to them also that love his coming.’’ (2 Tim. 4:7-8).’

“Justification by faith alone is a new doctrine; it was unheard of in the Christian community before the sixteenth century.”
tinyurl.com/ptfrpop

 

[guanophore]

I think I am just more confused than ever now.

I am just going to have to say, “we are saved by grace through baptism faith and works.”

It would be safer just to quote the Scriptures:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God— 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Eph 2:8–10)

Saving faith is faith that works. Neither the faith or the works save us. Grace saves us. We access saving grace through faith. The quality of that faith is a faith that expresses itself in love.

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, **but faith working through love. ** (Ga 5:6–7).

 

[Abu]

Guanophore #32
Thanks for your citations and your efforts, Abu. I was hoping he would listen to your learned approach, but I guess not.
At least all the posts made here in an effort to correct him will let those reading the thread know the truth.

Thank you for your efforts also, Guanophore, and your observation on other readers being led to the truth is most apt.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

I think I am just more confused than ever now.

I am just going to have to say, “we are saved by grace through baptism faith and works.”

A difference between Catholics and most Protestants is their view of grace. For many Protestants, grace is seen as merely God’s attitude toward us. You see this in the doctrine of simul justus et peccator: God regards man as just even though he is, considered in himself, just as sinful as the worst of infidels. Grace is then God ignoring our sinfulness and God looking at Christ’s righteousness instead. Catholics on the other hand see grace not just as God’s disposition towards man, but also a tangible gift, what God wroughts in us: in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature (James 6:15). This is a principal difference between the Catholic and Protestant beliefs on justification.

The new creature in Catholicism is called the life of grace. You may hear the term sanctifying grace. Sanctifying grace is that inside us which disposes man toward something beyond mere human nature, to a participation in the Divine Nature. Grace is the difference between salvation and damnation. Those who depart from the world in the state of grace will go into eternal life. Those who depart without grace enter into eternal torment.

This is where faith comes in. Faith, hope and charity are all called theological virtues in Catholic thought. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, “The human virtues are rooted in the theological virtues, which adapt man’s faculties for participation in the divine nature” (CCC 1812). All three of the theological virtues are necessary for salvation. Thus David Filmer is absolutely mistaken when he says that faith has no role whatsoever in the economy for salvation.

Baptism is the beginning of grace because it confers grace. However, this is where David is being misleading. The one being baptized does not receive sanctifying grace if he does not receive the sacrament with sincerity. He is validly baptized, receives the “baptismal character,” and is not to be rebaptized, but he does not receive the grace. The grace only comes with true faith and repentance. Additionally, those who seek after God with faith before baptism also receive grace, though not the full perfection of grace, as Cornelius did from the book of Acts before he was baptized. This is called the baptism of desire. So one can have grace before he receives the sacrament, and one can receive the sacrament and not receive any grace from it. Thus it is a great oversimplification to suggest parallel to Luther that we are saved by baptism alone.