What is this “journey of confirmation”?
Are you suggesting that for adults there are separate paths for confirmation and baptism?
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Are you suggesting that for adults there are separate paths for confirmation and baptism?
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CaptainRedBeard
Guest
While adults renounce sin at baptism, children, especially those who have not yet reached the age of reason (or consent), do not. It is done on their behalf by their parents and a commitment to raise the child in a Catholic manner is made. Especially infants have no understanding, and often times no ability to speak, to make such a proclamation. Baptism is a renunciation of sin, not an acceptance of the Gospel. For adults, a Profession of Faith is said, but it is not the same as the one at confirmation which includes submission to the Church and her teachings. The profession at non-infant baptism only extends to ecumenical teaching on salvation. The Rite of Acceptance adds to it with an affirmation of the Gospels. Confirmation adds to it with submission to the Catholic Church and her teachings. See RCIA, Third Step: Celebration of The Sacraments of Initiation, p. 211, 223-226 as well as RCIA, Rite of Acceptance into the Order of the Catechumens, Candidates’ First Acceptance of the Gospel, p. 52 A-C.
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JulianN
Guest
What does this have to do with a 10-year-old? There will be a renunciation of sin, then baptism. The Confirmation promises are about 5-10 minutes later.While adults renounce sin at baptism, children, especially those who have not yet reached the age of reason (or consent), do not. It is done on their behalf by their parents and a commitment to raise the child in a Catholic manner is made.
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CaptainRedBeard
Guest
A 10 year old is approaching the Age of Reason. So, it is likely the priest wants them to participate in the full journey of the initial 4 sacraments; which includes acceptance of ecumenical salvation doctrine (at baptism), an acceptance of the Gospels (at the Rite of Acceptance into the Order of Catechumens), the Sacrament of Reconciliation (in preparation for first Communion and in order to participate in this awesome sacrament continually in the future), the Sacrament of the Eucharist as well as the Sacraments of the Eucharist, Baptism and Confirmation (usually done on or around Easter and expands public declaration to the acceptance of and submission to Catholic teaching). The Age of Reason is what is playing heavily into the priest’s choice here. Also, the individual situation of the child plays in heavily as to whether the baptism should be done without the initial journey to the rest of the sacraments (an example from personal experience as to why that would be done was given earlier).
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Not according to the Church. A (normal) 10 year old is considered to be quite passed the age of reason.A 10 year old is approaching the Age of Reason.
Obviously a 10 year old has a ways to go in understanding. But so does the average 30 year old. And 60 year old.
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JulianN
Guest
No. A 10-year-old is well past the age of reason. And there are three initial sacraments, not four.A 10 year old is approaching the Age of Reason. So, it is likely the priest wants them to participate in the full journey of the initial 4 sacraments;
And the rite of acceptance into the order of catechumens cannot come after baptism.
This is incredibly mixed up.
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Kaliaa
Guest
Also as stated by others because the 10 y/o has NOT been baptized, she would NOT be going to Reconciliation. Baptism takes care of all sins so Reconciliation is not necessary. There are Three sacraments of initiation not four.
People who have already been baptized earlier in life and then go through RCIA need Reconciliation, Confirmation and first Communion.
You seem to be a bit confused about how this works for someone who is essentially an unbaptized adult. Admittedly we don’t run into that situation nearly as often as baptized people who join the church after being baptized in another non-Catholic church.
People who have already been baptized earlier in life and then go through RCIA need Reconciliation, Confirmation and first Communion.
You seem to be a bit confused about how this works for someone who is essentially an unbaptized adult. Admittedly we don’t run into that situation nearly as often as baptized people who join the church after being baptized in another non-Catholic church.
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JulianN
Guest
Let’s assume a child of normal mental capacity and start with this quote. Which is out of order completely.An unbaptized adult goes through 4 sacraments (and age-of-reason children follow suit):
- Baptism
- First Reconciliation (if the pastoral choice is made by those leading the confirmation group)
- First Communion (Eucharist)
- Confirmation
An unbaptized person experiences the sacraments in this order, at the same Mass:
- Baptism
- Confirmation
- Communion
In this case, we are talking about a 10-year-old—who would receive the sacraments in the order I listed. No Confession before Communion—sins are forgiven at baptism.
One is accepted as a catechumen before baptism.
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SuscipeMeDomine
Guest
CaptainRedBeard, there are so many misstatements in your messages that they serve only to confuse. Since you’re a confirmation catechist perhaps it would be better to focus on your own area of expertise. There are people here who are familiar with RCIA and can give accurate information about it.
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SuscipeMeDomine
Guest
Indeed. Please start a new thread so that the person who wants to know about baptism for a 10 year old can actually find that info.At this point, since we aren’t even discussing the original post directly, this should be a new thread,
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JulianN
Guest
I’m sorry—your posts are really confusing. And I’m not the only one who’s finding them so.
You made it seem as if the OP could request baptism for her child in a way that was somehow separate from Confirmation and Communion—not a seamless experience occurring at one Mass.
You also made it sound as if the 10-Year-old would have a different experience of receiving the sacraments than an adult—including parental promises to raise her Catholic, etc. When you said she was “approaching” the age of reason, it might have confused the OP into thinking she could be baptized the way an infant would be —making first Communion later, followed by Confirmation.
By listing the sacraments in the order you did, and using the number 4 instead of 3, it made it seem as if there were 4 sacraments of initiation.
It also sounded as if you were conflating the experience of a convert, which really should not be part of RCIA (although often is) with what would be the correct process for the OP’s daughter.
I think we all wanted the OP to understand that what it sounded like you were describing—baptism separate from the other two sacraments—would not be appropriate for her daughter.
You made it seem as if the OP could request baptism for her child in a way that was somehow separate from Confirmation and Communion—not a seamless experience occurring at one Mass.
You also made it sound as if the 10-Year-old would have a different experience of receiving the sacraments than an adult—including parental promises to raise her Catholic, etc. When you said she was “approaching” the age of reason, it might have confused the OP into thinking she could be baptized the way an infant would be —making first Communion later, followed by Confirmation.
By listing the sacraments in the order you did, and using the number 4 instead of 3, it made it seem as if there were 4 sacraments of initiation.
It also sounded as if you were conflating the experience of a convert, which really should not be part of RCIA (although often is) with what would be the correct process for the OP’s daughter.
I think we all wanted the OP to understand that what it sounded like you were describing—baptism separate from the other two sacraments—would not be appropriate for her daughter.
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Dovekin
Guest
Excellent answers. The only thing I would add is that the Easter Vigil is when Baptism is celebrated. Not just “the sacrament is celebrated at 8pm on the first Sunday after a new moon in spring” (to use a mundane description) but celebrated in the sense of the waters are blessed, the fire for the candle is blessed, the history os water is read aloud, the death of Jesus is remembered as is the hope of our Resurrection with him.Can. 856 Although baptism can be celebrated on any day, it is nevertheless recommended that it be celebrated ordinarily on Sunday or, if possible, at the Easter Vigil.
At the Easter Vigil, the full glory of our faith is revealed, our hope of rising again with the Lord. All the “smaller” moments of our blessings from God are gathered up into the supreme moment of our Redemption. Forty years or wandering, and thirsting, in the desert is matched with waters flowing from the Temple. The colors of the Rainbow greet those who pass through the waters.
It is one of our most ancient customs, that baptisms are done at Easter. The exception is for infants, which gives many the impression it can be done at any time. But the normal process is that those who are reborn in baptism are reborn with Christ as he rises from the dead.
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TheLittleLady
Guest
Would you point me to these documents? From all of my understanding, there have been no Rites of Christian Initiation of Children developed.In the US, it is pretty standard that children over the age of reason are brought into the Church through RCIC.
http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-te...itiation-of-adults/index.cfm?cssearch=85777_1
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CilladeRoma
Guest
My diocese calls it (wrongly, I know) RCIC.
It’s RCIA geared toward children between the ages of 7-13 (usually up to 8th grade).
Kids in 8th grade or up are with the adults.
It’s RCIA geared toward children between the ages of 7-13 (usually up to 8th grade).
Kids in 8th grade or up are with the adults.
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promarx
Guest
Church administration.
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PetraG
Guest
This and subsequent “clarifying” statements seem to me to come together to form an excellent basis for the argument to routinely allow Catholics to receive Confirmation while they are still in grade school, if they are well-disposed.As a confirmation Catechist, I can tell you that there is no instructional requirement for the sacrament of baptism. If that is the only sacrament you wish your child to partake in due to parental choices regarding future sacraments, there should be nothing stopping a priest from baptizing.…[Petra G: !!!]
Also, many undervalue or don’t understand the journey of confirmation. This journey prepares any who have reached the age of reason to choose whether or not to first participate in the Rite of Acceptance acknowledging basic acceptance of teaching regarding salvation and next to give the Profession of Faith at confirmation. To truly understand what you are professing at confirmation takes time to learn those teachings and then a conscious choice whether or not to adhere to them. So many confirm and say the Profession of Faith without knowing what it is or believing what they say out of culturally going through the motions or because they feel pressured to by family. It’s important that anyone, child or adult, really means the Profession of Faith when they publicly declare it.
I’ve taught enough high school to know that reason and self-understanding does not necessarily improve between the ages of 11 and 17, let’s just say that. It could be that our young people could stand to have the graces of confirmation well before high school hits.
Confirmation isn’t something a Catholic comes to deserve, after all. It is something a Catholic comes to need, and it could be well-argued that we need it sooner rather than later:
Can. 879 The sacrament of confirmation strengthens the baptized and obliges them more firmly to be witnesses of Christ by word and deed and to spread and defend the faith. It imprints a character, enriches by the gift of the Holy Spirit the baptized continuing on the path of Christian initiation, and binds them more perfectly to the Church.
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Mintaka
Guest
Yup. “Confirmare” is the verb “to strengthen, to reinforce, to make more solid.”
For example, Luke 22:32, when Jesus directs St. Peter to “strengthen your brothers,” it’s “confirma fratres tuos.”
In Confirmation, the Holy Spirit reinforces and strengthens the gifts of our Baptism. We are given our gifts more fully, strengthened against spiritual attack, and heartened to spread the faith.
It does not require that a baptized person be well-informed about the faith, because it’s the Holy Spirit doing the work. We are not confirming the Faith; we are being confirmed by the Faith’s Subject.
Obviously it is good for kids to know lots about the Faith. But there is no placement test or labor requirement for Sacraments. With a very few exceptions that are all about having the proper attitude – what was freely given to the Church, the Church must freely give. Anything else is the mortal sin called simony.
I agree that a kid over the age of reason is an adult in the eyes of canon law. But preparation for Baptism of an adult has to include preparation for Confirmation of an adult, because the two go together and happen at the same time.
I also agree that the parish should get on the stick a bit faster, though. A kid just starting out is a lot different from an adult with lots of hangups and holdups to work through. Like the eunuch said, “What hinders me from being baptized?” Tutor the kid, make sure the kid is willing, and get the kid safely baptized and confirmed and communicated.
For example, Luke 22:32, when Jesus directs St. Peter to “strengthen your brothers,” it’s “confirma fratres tuos.”
In Confirmation, the Holy Spirit reinforces and strengthens the gifts of our Baptism. We are given our gifts more fully, strengthened against spiritual attack, and heartened to spread the faith.
It does not require that a baptized person be well-informed about the faith, because it’s the Holy Spirit doing the work. We are not confirming the Faith; we are being confirmed by the Faith’s Subject.
Obviously it is good for kids to know lots about the Faith. But there is no placement test or labor requirement for Sacraments. With a very few exceptions that are all about having the proper attitude – what was freely given to the Church, the Church must freely give. Anything else is the mortal sin called simony.
I agree that a kid over the age of reason is an adult in the eyes of canon law. But preparation for Baptism of an adult has to include preparation for Confirmation of an adult, because the two go together and happen at the same time.
I also agree that the parish should get on the stick a bit faster, though. A kid just starting out is a lot different from an adult with lots of hangups and holdups to work through. Like the eunuch said, “What hinders me from being baptized?” Tutor the kid, make sure the kid is willing, and get the kid safely baptized and confirmed and communicated.
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PetraG
Guest
Yes. Just to clarify: I totally agree with those who hold that preparation for confirmation typically ought to include preparation seriously intended to dispose the confirmandi as well as possible. No sacrament reaches its maximum intended effect when it is entered into lightly or without appreciation. The Church over the centuries has not been in the habit of bapitizing catechumens immediately precisely for that reason. The graces of the sacraments are not earned, but they do require cooperation; they’re not magic.Yup. “Confirmare” is the verb “to strengthen, to reinforce, to make more solid.”
For example, Luke 22:32, when Jesus directs St. Peter to “strengthen your brothers,” it’s “confirma fratres tuos.”
In Confirmation, the Holy Spirit reinforces and strengthens the gifts of our Baptism. We are given our gifts more fully, strengthened against spiritual attack, and heartened to spread the faith.
It does not require that a baptized person be well-informed about the faith, because it’s the Holy Spirit doing the work. We are not confirming the Faith; we are being confirmed by the Faith’s Subject.
Obviously it is good for kids to know lots about the Faith. But there is no placement test or labor requirement for Sacraments. With a very few exceptions that are all about having the proper attitude – what was freely given to the Church, the Church must freely give. Anything else is the mortal sin called simony.
I agree that a kid over the age of reason is an adult in the eyes of canon law. But preparation for Baptism of an adult has to include preparation for Confirmation of an adult, because the two go together and happen at the same time.
I also agree that the parish should get on the stick a bit faster, though. A kid just starting out is a lot different from an adult with lots of hangups and holdups to work through. Like the eunuch said, “What hinders me from being baptized?” Tutor the kid, make sure the kid is willing, and get the kid safely baptized and confirmed and communicated.
Having said that, the capacity of young people who have reached the age of reason is often underestimated, which I believe can lead to what is essentially spiritual neglect. If a shepherd were to take the lambs from one pasture to another and loses half of them, is that not a serious problem?
We have seen steep declines among baptized Catholics in reception of Confirmation, Marriage and Holy Orders, not to mention in Catholics who regularly attend Mass or receive the sacrament of confession. I can’t believe that we will have more priests and more Catholics marrying in the Church if we don’t do a better job of getting Catholics confirmed prior to the earlier-and-earlier attack of the World, the Flesh and the Devil on our youngest members.
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