Baptism

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These errors would have all humans held hostage to mental aptitude and personal knowledge or what’s in a person’s brain as the key for salvation rather than letting everyone “come to the Lord” to accept God’s free and abundant grace.
**Due respect…but we are captive to what’s in our brains for salvation. If we think a lustful, despairing, angry, sacrilegious, or blasphemous thought and die before we have the chance to confess, or to form the intention to confess, then we go straight to Hell, regardless of anything else we’ve done in our lives. **
 
**If we think a lustful, despairing, angry, sacrilegious, or blasphemous thought and die before we have the chance to confess, or to form the intention to confess, then we go straight to Hell, regardless of anything else we’ve done in our lives. **
Do you really believe that? What about mercy? What about prayers for the dead?
 
brian wrote: …The only church father you mentioned that said anything about infants was Irenaeus and he said nothing about baptism. You are conjecturing when you imply that by saying “born again” Irenaeus meant “baptism,” I don’t think he did. In fact, I wonder if you would even agree with what he was talking about…
irenaeus wrote
For
He came to save all through means of Himself–all, I say, who
through Him are born again to God
(8)–infants,(9) and children, and
boys, and youths, and old men. He therefore passed through every
age, becoming an infant for infants, thus sanctifying infants; a
child for children, thus sanctifying those who are of this age,
being at the same time made to them an example of piety,
righteousness, and submission; a youth for youths, becoming an
example to youths, and thus sanctifying them for the Lord.


he also wrote
*For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: “Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.”(3) *

another church father to talk about infants was Luke.

Luke 18:15-16 and they brought unto him also infants,…But Jesus called them [unto him], and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
 
Do you really believe that? What about mercy? What about prayers for the dead?
Mercy is given to us if we ask for forgiveness, regardless of what we have done to sin. Prayers for the dead are meant for souls in Purgatory. Not for those already in Hell.
 
Finally, there is personal sin, the stuff we do ourselves, whether as perpetuation of the general fallenness of this world, the generational fallenness of our parents or surroundings, or as the invention of sins of our own. A person becomes guilty when they personally sin. A child is not guilty until they make sin a personal decision, either consciously or unconsciously. (Fr Hainsworth)
Bingo! A child is not guilty until they make sin a personal decision. So why baptize infants?

Catholics and Orthodox on this thread have admitted they do not know what becomes of an infant that dies without baptism. Your views on infant baptism seem to be precautionary. But we have a priest, Fr Hainsworth, saying that children are innocent until they commit their first personal sin; so if an infant is not guilty of Adam’s sin, what could possibly condemn the child on judgment day?
 
Bingo! A child is not guilty until they make sin a personal decision. So why baptize infants?

Catholics and Orthodox on this thread have admitted they do not know what becomes of an infant that dies without baptism. Your views on infant baptism seem to be precautionary. But we have a priest, Fr Hainsworth, saying that children are innocent until they commit their first personal sin; so if an infant is not guilty of Adam’s sin, what could possibly condemn the child on judgment day?
You over-read the priest’s comments. Out of the womb the child of course is not guilty of personal sin. But it still has a fallen human nature and a natural soul that lacks supernatural grace - the stuff necessary for eternal life. Birth is not a sacrament - it imparts no sanctifying grace. Without sanctifying grace a soul can not ascend to heaven and have eternal life. Christ made is perfectly clear that baptism is a necessary and normative means for entering into the new covenant and being spiritually marked (sealed) as belonging to Christ (and immediately becomes an enemy of Satan too btw). Catholic belief is that baptism radically reconfigures the natural human soul to receive the Holy Spirit (actually the entire Trinity) then fills it full of sanctifying grace, imparts spiritual gifts for the church so that it may attain supernatural merit through charitable works through those gifts (to be discerned later) and the Holy Spirit immediately indwells.

You are arguing against much more than mere precaution – a precaution that itself is sufficient and prudential exercise of common sense. You are actually arguing against the normative means that Christ intended to be received into His Body (His Church) as well as discounting the infinite merits of having an indwelling of the Holy Spirit and sanctifying grace in an infant’s soul as soon as possible. It’s clear that you do not believe in or lack understanding of how profoundly powerful baptism is to think that a soul should wait even a day longer than necessary to have the Holy Spirit resident. By not baptising you are essentially putting God to the test in assuming that He will and must show mercy on those infant souls who perish in childhood without the normative sacraments and give them supernatural grace. To assume upon God’s Mercy when He has given us the sacrament of baptism is a rash, careless, disrespectful and injurious presumption against Jesus’ explicit commandment to “(Matthew 19:14) bring the children to me - and DO NOT hinder them”. Who would dare to defy Christ and even think to delay and hinder bringing their child to Christ and not give as soon as expedient one’s own child the greatest gift in the universe - eternal living grace and an indwelling of the Holy Spirit?!!

BF
 
Bingo! A child is not guilty until they make sin a personal decision. So why baptize infants?
Wrong, they still inherit Original Sin from Adam. And it says in the bible that if someone is not baptized they cannot go to heaven. It is not for us to say that the baby be condemned to hell, (Perhaps God’s mercy will extend past the laws of the bible who knows?) but if we can baptize the child we know he/she will be safe.
 
Bona Fides:
Out of the womb the child of course is not guilty of personal sin. But it still has a fallen human nature and a natural soul that lacks supernatural grace - the stuff necessary for eternal life…Without sanctifying grace a soul can not ascend to heaven and have eternal life.
So if an unbaptized child lacks supernatural grace and supernatural grace is necessary for eternal life, then you are saying that a child who dies without baptism is denied eternal life. Is that correct?
SavedByHisBlood:
Wrong, they still inherit Original Sin from Adam. And it says in the bible that if someone is not baptized they cannot go to heaven. It is not for us to say that the baby be condemned to hell, (Perhaps God’s mercy will extend past the laws of the bible who knows?) but if we can baptize the child we know he/she will be safe.
Please show me where in the Bible it says if someone is not baptized they cannot go to heaven.
 
So if an unbaptized child lacks supernatural grace and supernatural grace is necessary for eternal life, then you are saying that a child who dies without baptism is denied eternal life. Is that correct?
No. I am only stating the fact that a soul must have sanctifying grace in order to attain to the beatific vision in heaven. The Catholic teaching for unbaptised children is that we trust in God’s mercy. But God being sovereign is not limited to the sacrament’s that He gave His Church. The normative way for human salvation is via sacramental baptism. God may elect of his own accord to grant a supernatural baptism in the final moments of a dieing unbaptised infant or child below the age of reason. He may also have other facilities in place such as limbo - where a natural soul which has no stain of personal fault yet was never elevated by baptismal grace to the supernatural order may be sojourned to enjoy some eternal condition of natural happiness; or at least minimal suffering. But such a natural unelevated soul that is placed into limbo, if such a condition exists, can not know God at a supernatural level and will never be able to attain to the heavenly joy of supernatural beatitude nor contemplate the severity of the opportunity it lost for lack of baptism in life. It’s a kind of “ignorance is bliss” existence similar to what Adam & Eve knew in their pre-fall state - a pure human relational existence without benefit of the elevated man to the supernatural level of existence. Yet other schools of thought here are that these souls owing to God’s justice are given to punishment of the most mild kind that is consistent with God’s mercy and His Justice. These are all theological theories that all resolve to the common theme of “trusting in God to do the right thing - whatever it is.” Unless we receive a divine revelation we will not likely ever know for certain what becomes of unbaptised souls while in this life and apparently God wills that we not know at this time. .

It is always prudential to baptise early to give grace the opportunity to start its work as soon as possible and to preclude the uncertainty about the status of unbaptised souls in the event of untimely death. We know for certain that baptism is a guarantee of salvation for a soul that maintains itself free of personal sin or later repents of personal sin with perfect contrition or through sacramental confession viz the apostolic authority to loose and bind sin on earth and on heaven for the souls of the living.

BF
 
Bingo! A child is not guilty until they make sin a personal decision.
An infant is not guilty of personal sin–but still needs baptism. Why are you trying to twist?
Catholics and Orthodox on this thread have admitted they do not know what becomes of an infant that dies without baptism.
Catholics and Orthodox will tell you that we leave the unbaptized child to the mercy of God.
Your views on infant baptism seem to be precautionary.
Poppycock! My views are in line with Sacred Tradition.
But we have a priest, Fr Hainsworth, saying that children are innocent until they commit their first personal sin; so if an infant is not guilty of Adam’s sin, what could possibly condemn the child on judgment day?
Orthodoxy has never taught a doctrine of original gulit. Stop twisting and being dishonest! 😦
 
Hello All 😃

My wife grew up going to church at the Assembilies of God, and i am Catholic. I agree with baptism of an infant to remove the stain of original sin, however, my wife believes that to be baptized one must be aware of Jesus and have a sinful nature (and old enough to do so). She also argues that a baby can’t possibly have a sinful nature because it’s just a baby.

So, I would like to see if i can get a list of biblical verses both in support of, and against infant baptism. That way i can sit down with her and be knowledgable about what verses are for infant baptism (maybe a few on original sin) and also against so i can know what she will respond with. Also, if anyone has a good explination of it for someone that isn’t Catholic and doesn’t see eye to eye with our doctrines i’d appriciate that too!! 👍

Thanks in advance
Here is a great site for those who have to defend the Catholic Faith using the Bible Alone.
biblechristiansociety.com/home.php
There are some audio files as well as printed matter. This is primarily for you to listen to/read so that you can explain it to others using the Bible Alone. Start by lisening to the 2 minute apologetics, then download specific mp3 audio depending on the issue.

God bless you and Keep The Faith.

Your brother in Christ.
 
There are people already in hell?!? The last judgement has already happened?!?
This is news to me!
Apostolic teaching has always held that a soul is judged immediately upon death and those found without grace and are guilty of grave unforgiven sin go straight to hell. The 2nd judgement is for Jesus to reveal the extent of all good and evil acts of every soul and how it affected each and every other soul in all of history. This is necessary so that Jesus can proclaim the final word on Creation (like God did when He first created it per Genesis “and it was good”) before it is destroyed and re-made anew. No change of status is given to those already judged for heaven or hell. But the added judgement brings either an intensification of glory for those in heaven or an intensification of punishment for those in hell after souls re-united with their bodies.

BF
 
Apostolic teaching has always held that a soul is judged immediately upon death and those found without grace and are guilty of grave unforgiven sin go straight to hell.
That sounds heretical. You are saying that there are two judgements?
 
…

Please show me where in the Bible it says if someone is not baptized they cannot go to heaven.
John 3:5
considered to refer to baptism by irenaeus
per my previous post. Ignatius - “…He submitted to baptism, so that by his passion He might sanctify water”

mark 16:16 Belief and baptism are required.

acts 8:38 called baptism after water not prior declaration of belief.

acts 2:37-38
 
That sounds heretical. You are saying that there are two judgements?
Mickey, you are a long term member here at CAF so I would have though by now you would know that Roman Catholics have always taught that there are two judgements. But there is only one personal judgement - the 2nd judgement is for the judgement of all of creation and peoples as a community of human beings across all generations. As I am sure you know sin or good acts have a ripple effect that transcend one’s own mere human existence forward in time with eternal consequences (good or bad depending on which). It is important that each soul know the severity of how its caused others in the race of humankind to suffer and the extent of that impact in all of human history. Likewise it is fitting for God to reveal exactly how a greater good came out of His showing mercy on humans and sending Christ as redeemer. So the good supernatural works made manifest by Christianity are judged objectively against all the evil to reveal how Christian good deeds and patient suffering overcame evil and produced a greater good with God’s grace. This permits God to grant each soul its highest and best reward in heaven (for the elect) and to punish the wicked to the full degree that their sins caused others to fall and not just to the consequence of their actions created in their own lifetimes (punishment is intensified accordingly). The 2nd judgement does not change the elect or damned status - just increases reward or punishment which ever the case of each soul and also conveys knowledge of every soul’s deeds (good and bad) to every other soul. Through some mystery the elect will feel no shame for their forgiven sins that God reveals to all souls ever created.

Here is the catechism:
*
Particular Judgment
1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.592 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul–a destiny which can be different for some and for others.593

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594 or immediately,595 – or immediate and everlasting damnation.596

At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.597

**V. THE LAST JUDGMENT **
1038 The resurrection of all the dead, "of both the just and the unjust,"623 will precede the Last Judgment. This will be "the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man’s] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment."624 Then Christ will come "in his glory, and all the angels with him. . . . Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. . . . And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."625

1039 In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man’s relationship with God will be laid bare.626 The Last Judgment will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life:

All that the wicked do is recorded, and they do not know. When “our God comes, he does not keep silence.”. . . he will turn towards those at his left hand: . . . "I placed my poor little ones on earth for you. I as their head was seated in heaven at the right hand of my Father - but on earth my members were suffering, my members on earth were in need. If you gave anything to my members, what you gave would reach their Head. Would that you had known that my little ones were in need when I placed them on earth for you and appointed them your stewards to bring your good works into my treasury. But you have placed nothing in their hands; therefore you have found nothing in my presence."627

1040 The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory. Only the Father knows the day and the hour; only he determines the moment of its coming. Then through his Son Jesus Christ he will pronounce the final word on all history. We shall know the ultimate meaning of the whole work of creation and of the entire economy of salvation and understand the marvelous ways by which his Providence led everything towards its final end. The Last Judgment will reveal that God’s justice triumphs over all the injustices committed by his creatures and that God’s love is stronger than death.628

1041 The message of the Last Judgment calls men to conversion while God is still giving them "the acceptable time, . . . the day of salvation."629 It inspires a holy fear of God and commits them to the justice of the Kingdom of God. It proclaims the “blessed hope” of the Lord’s return, when he will come "to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all who have believed."630
BF
 
That sounds heretical. You are saying that there are two judgements?
Yes, you receive judgment immediately when you die, and also on Judgement Day when Jesus will judge all the living and the dead.

See CCC paragraph 1021-1022 on immediate judgement. and paragraph 681 on Judgement Day.

(edit) Ah i see someone beat me to it lol
 
Would she listen to (OK, :blush:read) something Methodist?

**
Article VII—Of Original or Birth Sin
Original sin standeth not in the following of Adam (as the Pelagians do vainly talk), but it is the corruption of the nature of every man, that naturally is engendered of the offspring of Adam, whereby man is very far gone from original righteousness, and of his own nature inclined to evil, and that continually.
****** from
archives.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=1&mid=1649

Article XVII—Of Baptism
Baptism is not only a sign of profession and mark of difference whereby Christians are distinguished from others that are not baptized; but it is also a sign of regeneration or the new birth. The Baptism of young children is to be retained in the Church.
from:
archives.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=1&mid=1651

 
This is from the Evangelical United Brethren:
Pertaining part of Article VI: The Sacraments:
We believe the Sacraments, ordained by Christ, are symbols and pledges of the Christian’s profession and of God’s love toward us. They are means of grace by which God works invisibly in us, quickening, strengthening and confirming our faith in him. Two Sacraments are ordained by Christ our Lord, namely Baptism and the Lord’s Supper.
We believe Baptism signifies entrance into the household of faith, and is a symbol of repentance and inner cleansing from sin, a representation of the new birth in Christ Jesus and a mark of Christian discipleship.
We believe children are under the atonement of Christ and as heirs of the Kingdom of God are acceptable subjects for Christian Baptism. Children of believing parents through Baptism become the special responsibility of the Church. They should be nurtured and led to personal acceptance of Christ, and by profession of faith confirm their Baptism.
found: archives.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=1&mid=1655
Note: The E.U.B. Church were the German branch of Methodism; they gave us the word “United” in United Methodist Church, when the two branches became one church.
 
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