Baptism

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I was having a discussion with a friend the other day about the nature of the Sacrament of Baptism. We came to a question that we could not fully answer the ramifications of which are difficult at best.

The Sacrament of course has Matter, Form, Intention and Minister. The Minister of this Sacrament can be anyone, the matter is water and an unbaptized person the form is the trinitarian formula. These are simple but the question is really about Intention. The necessity for Intention in this Sacrament is to “do what the Church does.” Of course this is “ex opere operato.” However, it seems that most protestant denominations today no longer hold that Baptism is for the remission of Original Sin or that it incorporates a person into the Mystical Body.

Could a case not be made that because of this radical unbelief in the proper purpose of Baptism that such protestant denominations do not have a valid Baptism?
 
mosher said:
I was having a discussion with a friend the other day about the nature of the Sacrament of Baptism. We came to a question that we could not fully answer the ramifications of which are difficult at best.

The Sacrament of course has Matter, Form, Intention and Minister. The Minister of this Sacrament can be anyone, the matter is water and an unbaptized person the form is the trinitarian formula. These are simple but the question is really about Intention. The necessity for Intention in this Sacrament is to “do what the Church does.” Of course this is “ex opere operato.” However, it seems that most protestant denominations today no longer hold that Baptism is for the remission of Original Sin or that it incorporates a person into the Mystical Body.

Could a case not be made that because of this radical unbelief in the proper purpose of Baptism that such protestant denominations do not have a valid Baptism?
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This is exactly what a lot of Eastern Orthodox Christians believe and pretty much for exactly the reason you’ve given.

I’ll be interested to see the responses.
 
Steadfast said:
This is exactly what a lot of Eastern Orthodox Christians believe and pretty much for exactly the reason you’ve given.
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You are wrong. The EO believe that baptism is for the remission of sin (including original sin). However, they have a different understanding of original sin. They aslo believe that baptism unites the person to “The Body of Christ” (that is, the Church), and to open the door of salvation and eternal life to him or her.
 
Mickey said:
You are wrong. The EO believe that baptism is for the remission of sin (including original sin). However, they have a different understanding of original sin. They aslo believe that baptism unites the person to “The Body of Christ” (that is, the Church), and to open the door of salvation and eternal life to him or her.
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I think you misunderstood the post. I believe that it wasn’t about the EO not having proper intention but rather that the EO re-baptise for the reason stated.
 
mosher said:
I think you misunderstood the post. I believe that it wasn’t about the EO not having proper intention but rather that the EO re-baptise for the reason stated.
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You will be hard pressed to find an EO Church who re-baptizes. Some of the ROCOR parishes might, but not many.
 
Mickey said:
Sorry. I am not understanding the question. Sometimes I am dense. :o
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Sometimes the brain cells go on strike for me as well.

The question is this. Many protestants do not seem to have the proper intention when they baptise. If this is so then are not most protestant baptisms invalid?
 
mosher said:
Sometimes the brain cells go on strike for me as well.

The question is this. Many protestants do not seem to have the proper intention when they baptise. If this is so then are not most protestant baptisms invalid?
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So let me clarify. You are saying that it does not matter if the Trinitarian formula is used. If the individual does not believe that baptism saves and that it is for the remission of sin and unites a person to the body of Christ (the Church) etc.—then the baptism may not be valid.

Is this correct?
 
If I recall correctly, there is no requirement that the minister of baptism believe anything in particular. It is required that the minister intend that the action be a baptism, which means that he must have some concept of what baptism is, even if he is a unbeliever.

I suppose that if that concept was sufficiently flawed, then it could be considered that the person did not have the right intent. But I have never heard of this principle being applied in practice. The minister need not be a theologian, and may have only a vague or rudimentary idea of what baptism is.

To take a hypothetical situation, suppose I am unbaptized but wish to be, about to die for some reason, and the only person around is a pagan who never heard of original sin, nor of the mystical body, but who thinks that baptism is a ritual that makes a person into a Christian. If I asked this person to perform a baptism and told him the Trinitarian formula to say, wouldn’t this be valid? My understanding is that the answer is yes.

And if this would be valid, would such a baptism performed by a christian whose beliefs about baptism are more extensive but mixed with error be less valid? I can’t see why it would, but perhaps someone can offer a convincing argument.
 
Sam88 said:
To take a hypothetical situation, suppose I am unbaptized but wish to be, about to die for some reason, and the only person around is a pagan who never heard of original sin, nor of the mystical body, but who thinks that baptism is a ritual that makes a person into a Christian. If I asked this person to perform a baptism and told him the Trinitarian formula to say, wouldn’t this be valid? My understanding is that the answer is yes.
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I agree with you here.
Now what about the flip side. You are a baptist who believes that baptism is only a symbolic gesture that does not provide grace or remission of sin etc and your pastor who baptizes you is of the same belief. You are baptized with the Trinitarian formula. If later on you convert to Catholicism, the Church says that your baptism is valid.

Is it valid?

I say yes.
 
This is exactly my question. We know that four things must be intact for a sacrament to be valid.
  1. Matter
  2. Form
  3. Minister
  4. Intention
In the case of baptism these are:
  1. Water and a person who is disposed to be baptised
  2. Trinitarian Formula with proper trinitarian understanding
  3. Anyone
  4. Intention to do what the Church does
Now, the first three are not related to my question but only the mater of intention.

According to the formulation of what intention is I am aware that a belief in what baptism does is not strictly necessary. However, a firm denial of what baptism does may effect the sacrament. This is similar to the person who is being baptised who if at baptism places an internal barrier against the Sacrament causes the Sacrament to be null (as in Matrimony).

Related to the other Sacraments if the minister does not intend to do what the Sacrament effects then the Sacrament is null. In Holy Communion if the priest does not intend to confect the Sacrament it does not happen, if in Confirmation the minister does not intend to Confirm it does not happen, if in Matrimony the minister (one or the other) does not intend to fulfill the vows it does not happen, in Holy Orders and Extreme Unction the same. Thus, it seems that if there is a radical denial in the ministers intention about baptism and intending to do what the Church does in baptism it would seem that the sacrament would be null.
 
Has anyone here been baptised with fire? 🙂

Man cannot free himself from the rage of the carnal passions except by the help of the Holy Spirit. That is why He says baptism with the spirit, with water and with fire is necessary, and that it is essential – that is to say, the spirit of divine bounty, the water of knowledge and life, and the fire of the love of God. Man must be baptized with this spirit, this water and this fire so as to become filled with the eternal bounty. Otherwise, what is the use of baptizing with material water? No, this baptism with water was a symbol of repentance, and of seeking forgiveness of sins. But in the cycle of Bahá’u’lláh there is no longer need of this symbol; for its reality, which is to be baptized with the spirit and love of God, is understood and established. (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p. 91)

Reflect, also, that baptism in the days of John the Baptist was used to awaken and admonish the people to repent from all sin, and to watch for the appearance of the Kingdom of Christ. But at present in Asia, the Catholics and the Orthodox Church plunge newly born children into water mixed with olive oil, and many of them become ill from the shock; at the time of baptism they struggle and become agitated. (Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 94)

*Wash ye every soiled thing with water that hath undergone no alteration in any one of the three respects; take heed not to use water that hath been altered through exposure to the air or to some other agent. Be ye the very essence of cleanliness amongst mankind. This, truly, is what your Lord, the Incomparable, the All-Wise, desireth for you. **(Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 46) * The “three respects” referred to in this verse are changes in the colour, taste or smell of the water.
 
mosher said:
I was having a discussion with a friend the other day about the nature of the Sacrament of Baptism. We came to a question that we could not fully answer the ramifications of which are difficult at best.

The Sacrament of course has Matter, Form, Intention and Minister. The Minister of this Sacrament can be anyone, the matter is water and an unbaptized person the form is the trinitarian formula. These are simple but the question is really about Intention. The necessity for Intention in this Sacrament is to “do what the Church does.” Of course this is “ex opere operato.” However, it seems that most protestant denominations today no longer hold that Baptism is for the remission of Original Sin or that it incorporates a person into the Mystical Body.

Could a case not be made that because of this radical unbelief in the proper purpose of Baptism that such protestant denominations do not have a valid Baptism?
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Ok Baptism is a personal decession of accepting Jesus into your life. Nobody can make that decession for you. Now when Jesus was born he was “presented” to God, not baptized as a baby. Then when he was a adult he was “baptized” by John the Baptist in the river Jordan. Why was Jesus baptized as an adult and not as a baby? Now Jesus was without original sin or any sin so why did Jesus get baptized if baptism is meant to take away original sin or any sin? Now where in the bible does it say that baptism washes away original sin or any sin? When John the baptist was baptizing he told the people to “repent” not come have your “sins washed away,” why, if it was meant to wash away sin wouldn’t he have said that? How can anyone make the decession for you to accept Christ? See we go by what the bible says, present, then when you are able to make the decession to accept Christ you are baptized which is washing away your old life {going under the water} born into a new life with Christ {coming up from the water}. Now how you want to believe how and when you should be baptized is up to you. Its not my place to say if you are right or wrong, I’m just saying look at what the bible says and what Jesus did.
 
Hope this helps:

The sacraments means work done in the spirit world by Holy Spirit. The Church started by Apostles receiving the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. The apostle gave Holy Spirit to priests through ordination . Ordination could be done by an Bishop. Luther not being Bishop could not ordain his “priests” so under the human understanding they would not be able to do mysteries , since mysteries are work done in the other world and this work can be performed by the Holy Spirit in the prayer done by priest. Because of not being ordained and not having Apostolic succession, people getting mysteries done in a Protestant Church have risks and pastors may not be TRUE priests after all. Pastors need to become TRUE Priests if they want to do work in other world for their believers.

On the other side in emergencies Baptism can be done by an Orthodox Christian that received Holy Spirit at baptism. Maybe it can be done by anybody else saying a formula and this have to be checked with an orthodox priest. Baptism is special and is one of sacraments that can be done in emergencies by normal people not priests. Church defines what normal people are, if they include people baptized , anybody etc.

Orthodox Church has a process of determining if a person has a valid baptism or not and on case by case basis make the decision to rebaptize that person.

Speaking about baptism of children all Christians until 1500 when protestants appeared , did baptize children .There was no debate before 1500 if to baptize children since the 30 000 protestant denominations each one with its own understanding did not exist. It is interesting how people do get their children to a doctor without asking them and without waiting for their age of consent since is good for children but they don’t baptize them even if is good for children to be baptized. Because valid historical documents prove protestant beliefs as false , protestants discarded them naming them tradition. However, they do have historical books written after 1500 speaking about Early Church. So if you look to valid historical documents then you quit being protestant. You can start with Homilies of St John Crysostom.
 
monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6114

So pastors may look like a priest, may act as a priest but may not be a priest. A Holy Man speaking with Jesus named Churches without seven mysteries and without cross as organizations made by devil to deceive people.

Secret history has an document saying:
“In the…societies in which WE established and deeply rooted protestantism and discord” We may mean occult organization that may play with devil. So some organization may say we are all inclusive but who wants to be all inclusive ina work done by devil.
 
However it matters what God thinks. This is why a connection to God like being allowed by God to speak with God face to face is vital for a religion and this is true in Orthodox Christianity.
 
mosher said:
I was having a discussion with a friend the other day about the nature of the Sacrament of Baptism. We came to a question that we could not fully answer the ramifications of which are difficult at best.

The Sacrament of course has Matter, Form, Intention and Minister. The Minister of this Sacrament can be anyone, the matter is water and an unbaptized person the form is the trinitarian formula. These are simple but the question is really about Intention. The necessity for Intention in this Sacrament is to “do what the Church does.” Of course this is “ex opere operato.” However, it seems that most protestant denominations today no longer hold that Baptism is for the remission of Original Sin or that it incorporates a person into the Mystical Body.

Could a case not be made that because of this radical unbelief in the proper purpose of Baptism that such protestant denominations do not have a valid Baptism?
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The Minister for Baptism cannot be anyone but an ordained priest except for a Baptism of desire in emergency situation.

Though you have spelt out the intention for Baptism and that is what it should be and I think it’s admirable, I think for a Baptism to be valid a person Baptized needs only to have the **fundamental intention **- believing that God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (the Blessed Holy Trinity) and to renounce Satan.

Of course that is putting it simply. More appropriately is to examine the Baptism on case by case basis to determine how far it has deviated from the basic requirement.
 
NOT FROM HOLY SPIRIT
"I must, My child, make it known at this time that you must go back in the immediate years and bring the knowledge to mankind that these changes, the changes that have given bad fruits, have not been given to you through the Holy Spirit and through your Vicar, Pope Paul VI. It is the web of satan reaching out. Many are now, My child, puppets. The strings are being pulled by Benelli, Villot, and Casaroli and their followers.” – Our Lady, September 27, 1975

JESUS NEVER CHANGES
“Come out of the darkness, my sisters. You have been misled. Do not follow the fashions of your world. There is no fashion in Heaven. Jesus never changes. There is great punishment ahead for those who follow the world. Do not leave when you are discouraged by those who satan has sent into your convents. Stand forth as an example of purity and godliness. You will not be cast aside by your God, as you will by man, as you stand to defend your God. Pick up your cross and carry it. You will return the habit to the floor.” – St. Theresa, November 20, 1972

ONLY SATAN SEEKS CHANGE
"We ask–the Eternal Father speaks, and demands that all bishops in the houses of God throughout your world must turn back to prayer. They must turn back from the road they have chosen, a road filled with error, corruption, and sin. Man will not make changes in the House of God to please the basic carnal nature of mankind! But man in the House of God–the leaders, the clergy chosen by the Eternal Father, shall turn man from his path of destruction and bring him into the House of God. This he will not accomplish by lowering the rule or standards. Man must change his ways and follow the ways of God.
"You are, My children, living in the era of Antichrist. Recognize the signs of your times, and you will not fall into error. Read the Book, My children. You read books of corruption and vile debauchery. Restore the truth in your heart, into your children and homes. Open the good Book, the Bible, and read it in your homes.
"My Son has already set up the rule for the houses throughout the world, the churches. They are written in the Book of love and life, the Bible. Read and learn, and follow the truth!
"There is no time or change in Heaven. The Father never changes. It is only satan who seeks change to disturb, corrupt, and degrade. Satan roams wherever there is darkness of spirit. He will debase mankind in a manner so foul that you will know that no human could conceive of such vileness of sin.” – Our Lady, March 22, 1975

VATICAN II
"Pastors, those who have in their care Our sheep, you must stop now these changes that you seek in novelty, for they are destroying the young souls and scattering Our sheep.
"I repeat, My children, the great Council in Rome of Vatican II, the promises were great, but satan sat among you and he played you like the chess board.” – Our Lady, August 5, 1976

DISTORTION OF DOCTRINE
"My children, I–My heart is greatly saddened at the distortion of doctrine in My Son’s Church. I understand that man can be misled, for I have often counseled you that the road to hell is often paved with good intentions. You must examine your Bible, the Book of life. Genesis, chapter 3. There must be no changes in the story of the origin of mankind. ‘She’ must remain. ‘He’ must not replace it in the story of the serpent’s attack upon Eve.
"The Eternal Father has stated that the serpent shall crawl on his belly, stomach, My children. I use several words to illustrate the manner in which man is describing this time. He will crawl, the serpent, as the lowest animal among the beasts because he has deceived Eve. But the Eternal Father in His mercy has stated that He will place enmities between the serpent and the woman, between, enmities between the serpent’s seed and the woman’s seed; and the serpent shall have his head crushed by the woman and the serpent shall lie in wait for her heel.
"Be it known that the Eternal Father has deemed that man shall not change the words to ‘he’ and ‘he.’ I say this not to bring any false notions in your mind, My children, that I repeat this in pride. Far be it from Me, for I have not sought, neither on Heaven or earth, to be prideful; but, My children, I must bring to you the words of truth. Many are changing the words to suit their own interpretations of the Book of life, and these interpretations are based upon man’s own seeking.” – Our Lady, September 28, 1978

BISHOPS AND CARDINALS
"Bishops and cardinals in My Son’s Church, whatever shall become of you? You have cast off the light and proceed farther into the darkness. You are running about making changes, introducing novelties. And for what? For the ultimate destruction of My Son’s Church. No, I say to you, you shall be cast out of My Son’s houses. A church in darkness wears a band of death about it; a church that consorts with evil and evildoers shall close its doors.
"My children, I repeat and repeat to you the warning from Heaven. I go forth throughout your world as a Mediatrix between God and man. Hopefully, I implore you as your Mother, to restore My Son’s Church to its former glory. You must repent of your sin.” – Our Lady, April 9, 1977

Protestants should read this:
A church in darkness wears a band of death about it; a church that consorts with evil and evildoers shall close its doors.
 
30 000 Portestant denominations ?

“WE DO NOT CONDONE VARIATIONS AND CHANGES"
"It has grieved Me much in the past, as it grieves Me now, that mankind is making changes to My words. I assure you, My children and pastors within My houses, My Church upon earth, there is no necessity to change My words. Heaven, hell, purgatory, and especially, My children, the word ‘hell’ must be retained in your prayers.
"Repeat, My child, the confessional prayer.
O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee, and I confess to all my sins, because I dread the loss of Heaven and the pains of hell, but most of all because I love Thee, my God, Who are all-good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to confess my sins, to do penance, and to amend my life. Amen.
"Yes, My child, We do not condone variations and changes. It is the enemies of your God that have set themselves to promote change upon My words. The word of your God is eternal and must not be changed.” – Jesus, February 10, 1977
 
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