Baptismal Question for Protestants

[jbelokur]

In marriage both the man and women vow to give one to the other before God. The vow is the union. When the pastor announces “I pronounce you man and wife” he is only declaring on earth what has already been spoken in Heaven. The exchange of rings are the earthly sign of that covenant.

Likewise, when God says to the sinner, “Here is my Son, take him” and the sinner says “I do” then the baptism to follow is an earthly sign of that covenant.

Where do you find the exchanging of rings in scripture? Is this the testimony we find in the book of Genesis? Where do you find this type of language concerning Baptism in scripture? specifically that it is just a sign or symbol?

 

[Rocket_Man]

Where do you find the exchanging of rings in scripture? Is this the testimony we find in the book of Genesis? Where do you find this type of language concerning Baptism in scripture? specifically that it is just a sign or symbol?

It’s right next to that verse that explicitly says that Mary was born without the stain and never experienced death.

 

[jbelokur]

It’s right next to that verse that explicitly says that Mary was born without the stain and never experienced death.

That’s good! But as a mainline protestant, you must be able to prove these types of assertions with clear scriptural evidence. Or at least prove like the doctrine of the Trinity, that the idea is taught there in.

 

[JonNC]

=Rocket_Man;6850523]Likewise, when God says to the sinner, “Here is my Son, take him” and the sinner says “I do” then the baptism to follow is an earthly sign of that covenant.

Take Him??? This sounds kind of worksy to me, unless I’ve misunderstood. The imagery you seem to present is us reaching out for Him. Seems to me that by Grace alone through faith is the Holy Spirit reaching for us and our receiving Him.

Jon

 

[Rocket_Man]

Take Him??? This sounds kind of worksy to me, unless I’ve misunderstood. The imagery you seem to present is us reaching out for Him. Seems to me that by Grace alone through faith is the Holy Spirit reaching for us and our receiving Him.

Jon

Maybe a little misunderstanding. It’s like lightning, thunder, rain. What I am speaking here is the hearing of the thunder. The lightning has already been declared. The rain to follow is in the baptism.

 

[JonNC]

Maybe a little misunderstanding. It’s like lightning, thunder, rain. What I am speaking here is the hearing of the thunder. The lightning has already been declared. The rain to follow is in the baptism.

So, you would agree that we cannot come to faith without first God acts through the Holy Spirit?

Jon
EDIT: Very poorly worded, but you get my question, I hope.

 

[Rocket_Man]

So, you would agree that we cannot come to faith without first God acts through the Holy Spirit?

Jon
EDIT: Very poorly worded, but you get my question, I hope.

Yes, without a doubt!

 

[JonNC]

Yes, without a doubt!

The Apology of the Augsburg Confession says:

For it is very certain that the promise of salvation pertains also to little children [that the divine promises of grace and of the Holy Ghost belong not alone to the old, but also to children]. It does not, however, pertain to those who are outside of Christ’s Church, where there is neither Word nor Sacraments, because the kingdom of Christ exists only with the Word and Sacraments. Therefore it is necessary to baptize little children, that the promise of salvation may be applied to them, according to Christ’s command, Matt. 28:19: Baptize all nations. Just as here salvation is offered to all, so Baptism is offered to all, to men, women, children, infants. It clearly follows, therefore, that infants are to be baptized, because with Baptism salvation [the universal grace and treasure of the Gospel] is offered.

By offering children into baptism, they receive God’s grace. Grace is an unmerited free gift, made available by the work of Christ. It is God’s act of receiving us, not our accepting Him.
Certainly, once justified, we are bound to the commands of Christ, and have free will to reject His grace and salvation, but baptism and the salvation and forgiveness of sins that come with it is not our work, it is His.

Jon

 

[Rocket_Man]

The Apology of the Augsburg Confession says:

By offering children into baptism, they receive God’s grace. Grace is an unmerited free gift, made available by the work of Christ. It is God’s act of receiving us, not our accepting Him.
Certainly, once justified, we are bound to the commands of Christ, and have free will to reject His grace and salvation, but baptism and the salvation and forgiveness of sins that come with it is not our work, it is His.

Jon

I agree with parts but not all. Then maybe you can comment on my confusion with the doctrine found on another thread here:forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=475458.

 

[JonNC]

I agree with parts but not all. Then maybe you can comment on my confusion with the doctrine found on another thread here:forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=475458.

I read earlier your OP for that thread, and I frankly see nothing inconsistent between infant baptism and your experience. The Holy Spirit moves within us, drawing us all to Christ.
I can’t go into how well you were catechized, or how open you were growing up to hear His word. You may believe that you never experienced regeneration as a Catholic. I would contend that you would have never experienced regeneration at all, had it not been for Baptism and hearing the word.

His youthful experiences were never sufficient to bend away from sin to coincide with the very reason Christ Jesus came into the world, to take away sin. Yet in the later case, the regeneration was evident, as the turning away from several sinful vices was manifested in his daily living.

I would further contend that your youthful experience were not insufficient because God in your Baptism, or even the Catholic Church in word and sacrament for that matter, somehow failed. Youth is often resistent, whether the young person realizes it or not. All the more reason for infant Baptism
Your regeneration did not start in what you call the “later case”. This may be the time and place when you finally recognized the Holy Spirit, working within you for all the years since you were Baptized.

Jon

 

[Rocket_Man]

I read earlier your OP for that thread, and I frankly see nothing inconsistent between infant baptism and your experience. The Holy Spirit moves within us, drawing us all to Christ.
I can’t go into how well you were catechized, or how open you were growing up to hear His word. You may believe that you never experienced regeneration as a Catholic. I would contend that you would have never experienced regeneration at all, had it not been for Baptism and hearing the word.

I would further contend that your youthful experience were not insufficient because God in your Baptism, or even the Catholic Church in word and sacrament for that matter, somehow failed. Youth is often resistent, whether the young person realizes it or not. All the more reason for infant Baptism
Your regeneration did not start in what you call the “later case”. This may be the time and place when you finally recognized the Holy Spirit, working within you for all the years since you were Baptized.

Jon

Thanks for your comment Jon. I remember when I was younger my dad used to have two steel chairs on the patio. Every spring he would need to resand the rust that worked through through the paint on the chairs and then repaint them with a fresh coat. When anyone mentions the lack of being catechized as a possible reason, then I remember that old steel chair that couldn’t hold paint, not that it hadn’t been worked and reworked, but because the underlying steel was such that it continued to rust. In the same way, I was that chair, no matter how much my parents or the church would had sanded and painted, I wouldn’t had held the paint cause I was still living my old nature. That just isn’t consistent with a soul that has been truely regenerated or with Ezekiel 36.

 

[jbelokur]

Thanks for your comment Jon. I remember when I was younger my dad used to have two steel chairs on the patio. Every spring he would need to resand the rust that worked through through the paint on the chairs and then repaint them with a fresh coat. When anyone mentions the lack of being catechized as a possible reason, then I remember that old steel chair that couldn’t hold paint, not that it hadn’t been worked and reworked, but because the underlying steel was such that it continued to rust. In the same way, I was that chair, no matter how much my parents or the church would had sanded and painted, I wouldn’t had held the paint cause I was still living my old nature. That just isn’t consistent with a soul that has been truely regenerated or with Ezekiel 36.

A soul that has been regenerated still struggles against sin. It is called concupiscence.

 

[Australis]

Isn’t an infant/child considered to be without sin? I’d think so, and I think that most Protestant denominations follow that belief? Right?

You seem to be thinking of Pelagianism (see Wikipedia). However one of the basic widespread Christian beliefs is that we are all born with original sin.

 

[JonNC]

Thanks for your comment Jon. I remember when I was younger my dad used to have two steel chairs on the patio. Every spring he would need to resand the rust that worked through through the paint on the chairs and then repaint them with a fresh coat. When anyone mentions the lack of being catechized as a possible reason, then I remember that old steel chair that couldn’t hold paint, not that it hadn’t been worked and reworked, but because the underlying steel was such that it continued to rust. In the same way, I was that chair, no matter how much my parents or the church would had sanded and painted, I wouldn’t had held the paint cause I was still living my old nature. That just isn’t consistent with a soul that has been truely regenerated or with Ezekiel 36.

Rocket,
Your example of the metal chairs is excellent, in that it well describes the regenerate.
jbelakur rightly describes it as concupiscence. And whether one is Catholic and believes concupiscence is a tendency to sin, or a Lutheran who believes it is itself a sin, it is the work of the Holy Spirit through the Church to continually renew us - sanding and paint - through forgiveness of sins, the word and sacraments. None of us believe that regeneration implies we are perfect in this world. We grow in sanctifying grace - sanding and paint -, and sometimes we backslide - rust.

The fact that one continues in their old nature is only evidence concupiscence. The continued efforts to live the faith is evidence of the work of the Holy Spirit, which one initially receives at Baptism.

Jon

 

[Rocket_Man]

Rocket,
Your example of the metal chairs is excellent, in that it well describes the regenerate.
jbelakur rightly describes it as concupiscence. And whether one is Catholic and believes concupiscence is a tendency to sin, or a Lutheran who believes it is itself a sin, it is the work of the Holy Spirit through the Church to continually renew us - sanding and paint - through forgiveness of sins, the word and sacraments. None of us believe that regeneration implies we are perfect in this world. We grow in sanctifying grace - sanding and paint -, and sometimes we backslide - rust.

The fact that one continues in their old nature is only evidence concupiscence. The continued efforts to live the faith is evidence of the work of the Holy Spirit, which one initially receives at Baptism.

Jon

Jon, but before twenty nine, there was nothing that was restraining me from sin other than outside pressures influencing my behavior. An example being I would not have sex with another married woman on a particular evening only because I could get caught by my current wife. Not because it was wrong and offended God! But we aren’t talking just about sexual lust either, everything was about me! I was the circle on my universe! I would help the old lady crossing the street only to get reward on the other side. I had no knowledge or care for Christ.

After I came to Christ when I was twenty nine, something changed. The “me” in the circle was replaced by God. The sin I once desired became exceedingly sinful. My will was changed from seeking to fulfill my desires to seeking to please through obedience towards Christ. How could I ever reconcile the regeneration present in infant baptism with that which I lived? There was no Spirit, no inner knowledge of Christ, no desire to be obedient, no love for things that are Holy, no desire to be least.

 

[JonNC]

=Rocket_Man;6857777]Jon, but before twenty nine, there was nothing that was restraining me from sin other than outside pressures influencing my behavior. An example being I would not have sex with another married woman on a particular evening only because I could get caught by my current wife. Not because it was wrong and offended God! But we aren’t talking just about sexual lust either, everything was about me! I was the circle on my universe! I would help the old lady crossing the street only to get reward on the other side. I had no knowledge or care for Christ.

You said you were raised Catholic. Of course you had knowledge of Christ. You just chose to reject it in your own life. And you are not alone.

Why were you worried about being caught by your wife? If it wasn’t wrong, in your mind, there must have been some reason. I suspect, in part, you loved her and cared what she thought and how she felt.

After I came to Christ when I was twenty nine, something changed.

You can’t come to Christ until He comes to you first. For those that are Baptized in infancy, it begins with Baptism.

The “me” in the circle was replaced by God. The sin I once desired became exceedingly sinful. My will was changed from seeking to fulfill my desires to seeking to please and obedience towards Christ. How could I ever reconcile the regeneration present in infant baptism with that I lived?

Human sin and free will. Millions of people go decades after Baptism and catechism before the message comes through. The Holy Spirit will often use an event, or a crisis, or just the casual hearing of the word. Think about the tiny mustard seed. It takes time to grow.

Jon

 

[Nicea325]

I question Catholic law, when it is not supported by scripture, or when it adds to scripture. I have found that I cannot reconcile Catholic teaching with what I read in scripture. Baptism is merely one issue…there are many others, each of which would require an additional thread.

Unlike some here, I am not able to turn off my brain, and just trust the Catholic Church about baptism or anything else. They say you can know someone is a Christian by their fruit. Frankly, the Catholic Church has not borne good fruit through the centuries.

So, in short, I trust in Christ because of what he has done for me. I do not trust the Catholic Church.

And care to show me where Christianity formed out of a book called the Bible? Where did Jesus leave a book-alone faith?

The Catholic Church adds to scripture? Care to explain how thousands of different churches is supported by scripture? How is that fact not adding to scripture?

You trust in Christ? Then why follow a church founded by a mere human, Christ never founded or gave permission to start?

 

[Rocket_Man]

You said you were raised Catholic. Of course you had knowledge of Christ. You just chose to reject it in your own life. And you are not alone.

Why were you worried about being caught by your wife? If it wasn’t wrong, in your mind, there must have been some reason. I suspect, in part, you loved her and cared what she thought and how she felt.

Jon, I was taught the commandments when I was young. I was taught right from wrong just like Israel. That teaching of right and wrong did not regenerate Israel’s hearts! So knowing the law shouldn’t be confused with regeneration.

You can’t come to Christ until He comes to you first. For those that are Baptized in infancy, it begins with Baptism.

“Coming to Christ” for me assumes that He first called through grace, but not until I was twenty none. How could I had been His adopted son as a child and not known my Father in heart? If regeneration were present in infant baptism, then the fruits of the Spirit would have been evident in my life? Isn’t this new covenant a better one than that given to Israel?

Human sin and free will. Millions of people go decades after Baptism and catechism before the message comes through. The Holy Spirit will often use an event, or a crisis, or just the casual hearing of the word. Think about the tiny mustard seed. It takes time to grow.
Jon

My will was not free. My will was in bondage and could only do what sin suggested. I had no power or ability to overpower sin. Likewise even today, even when I desire to be obedient, it’s not that I’m using my free will, but because my will has been bent by Him to serve Him rather than sin. He is the potter, I am the clay.

There wasn’t any mustard seed, nothing growing or alive at all. There are also millions who God calls that have not been infant baptized that have experienced the same life pattern as I.

 

[JonNC]

Jon, I was taught the commandments when I was young. I was taught right from wrong just like Israel. That teaching of right and wrong did not regenerate Israel’s hearts! So knowing the law shouldn’t be confused with regeneration.

“Coming to Christ” for me assumes that He first called through grace, but not until I was twenty none. How could I had been His adopted son as a child and not known my Father in heart? If regeneration were present in infant baptism, then the fruits of the Spirit would have been evident in my life? Isn’t this new covenant a better one than that given to Israel?

My will was not free. My will was in bondage and could only do what sin suggested. I had no power or ability to overpower sin. Likewise even today, even when I desire to be obedient, it’s not that I’m using my free will, but because my will has been bent by Him to serve Him rather than sin. He is the potter, I am the clay.

There wasn’t any mustard seed, nothing growing or alive at all. There are also millions who God calls that have not been infant baptized that have experienced the same life pattern as I.

I give thanks to God that you have received Him.

Jon

 

[guanophore]

It’s right next to that verse that explicitly says that Mary was born without the stain and never experienced death.

Yes, and those are right next to the list of books that belongs in the Bible.