Baptist and Alcohol

[benidict]

Some do, some don’t. I happen to like having a drink every once in a while and I see nothing wrong with it as long as you don’t drink to the point of being drunk.

yeah, id have to say, this is probably the position of most Baptist. although i will add, if im around someone who has a problem with alchohol, or is a recovering alchoholic, i will not drink at all. no use offending someone with my liberty in Christ. its the same, if i had an Adventist, or Jewish person at my table. no pork products. and it may just be a full vegetarian meal if its an Adventist. i just do it out of respect for their beliefs. Peace

 

[cooterhein]

I’m not Baptist, but I did come from a non-denom background that is more similar to Baptist than anything else. Some people are just legalistic, but a few people have some reasonable rationale that goes into what they do.

First, some people know they have a propensity to addiction in general or an addiction to alcoholism. They know they have to be really careful with it, and they’ll let their families know, too. If they’re legalistic, they’ll try to make everyone else do the same thing. If they’re not, they’ll just do it within their own family where it makes sense to do it.

Second, some will cite references from the Bible that talk about making sure you don’t cause a brother or sister to stumble. Again, if they’re legalistic, they won’t make any distinction between a dry county in the Bible Belt and any given place in Germany. But some people will conclude that their particular role in the community and in the church puts them in a position where the use of alcohol will cause others to stumble, and while it’s not sinful to do a little social drinking, it’s better for them to hold themselves to a higher standard. Legalism means holding everyone to that same standard, but believe it or not, some people actually aren’t legalistic.

Third, some people will give reasons that have to do with being parents. (This one is courtesy of my own parents). When kids are growing up in a home where certain things are reserved for adults, just about any kid will want that thing more than anything else, and as soon as possible. If the adults are always drinking coffee and seem to be enjoying it, the kids will want a hit of that coffee at the earliest possible age. It’s the same thing with alcohol, cigarettes, gambling, etc. Matter of fact, let’s say the adults get together with other adults on a fairly regular basis in order to play some poker (10 dollar buy in- nothing crazy), have some beer (just one or two, and light beer at that) and maybe smoke a few cigarettes (not illegal, not sinful). In a house where that happens and the kids aren’t allowed to do any of that, odds are really good that those kids will smoke, drink, and gamble some allowance away well before the age of 18. In a house where these things don’t happen, children will not do things that are illegal, and most people will say this is preferable.

Fourth, and especially with regard to the things Jews did (and do) with alcohol, there’s the reasoning from drunk driving. Some Baptists (and other conservative Protestants) reason that ancient Judaism did include quite a bit of drinking, and while sexual inhibitions were affected in the same way, modern dangers with regard to transportation were not as much of an issue. What’s the worst that could happen- maybe you fall off your camel? Consequently, there are some Baptists who reason that if they’d lived in a much different time, maybe it wouldn’t be so irresponsible to drink a little. But in our current situation, the wise choice is to make sure you’re always able to drive completely unimpaired. Buzzed driving is drunk driving, as they say, and even if you’re not falling down drunk, it doesn’t take nearly as much to slow your reflexes by a fraction more than you expected.

As for me, I’m fine with doing a small amount of social drinking on rare occasions- just not enough to alter my mood. When you depend on alcohol in order to be in a certain kind of mood, that’s how alcohol dependency develops, and I obviously don’t want that. Additionally, I won’t ever drink on any kind of regular basis because I know there’s a moderate amount of risk due to family history, and if I ever have any kids, I also see some wisdom in the idea of making sure they aren’t around it all the time.

The first time I ever tasted alcohol was several months after I turned 21. I had about 3 ounces of Miller Lite, commented on how it tasted, took a shower, and went to bed. It would be about a year before I had my second “drink.” (White wine, to see how it tasted with the chicken I was having. About one ounce of it).
I haven’t met too many people that can say anything like that, and the ones who can, their parents never had alcohol in the house when they were growing up. That was certainly true of me, and I think that’s the only way it could have possibly happened.

 

[Being_Brave]

When I was growing up Baptist I had relatives who drank but my parents never let them do it in front of us, and I remember leaving family functions because someone brought out the near-beer (my parents have since lost their religion, still have faith but more like agnostics:blush

I do have a Baptist friend who got really excited a couple Sundays ago because her pastor told her that you can get the same health benefits from drinking grape juice as red wine, and made a sermon specifically about how Jesus would prefer people drinking grape juice because otherwise he wouldn’t have made it equally as healthy. w/e.

 

[benidict]

When I was growing up Baptist I had relatives who drank but my parents never let them do it in front of us, and I remember leaving family functions because someone brought out the near-beer (my parents have since lost their religion, still have faith but more like agnostics:blush

I do have a Baptist friend who got really excited a couple Sundays ago because her pastor told her that you can get the same health benefits from drinking grape juice as red wine, and made a sermon specifically about how Jesus would prefer people drinking grape juice because otherwise he wouldn’t have made it equally as healthy. w/e.

i will pray for your parents. that they regain their faith. your faith can bear a great witness to them. on a lighter note. all we an get is near beer in iraq. 0% alchohol. how depressing… the kids outside the wire said they could get us whiskey if we gave them money, i dont doubt it. they run and get us bread all the time. but we are not allowed the same kids offered to find me a wife once they found out i was single too… (and i think they could have done this too!) oh well. i got 2 guys, that owe me 1 bottle of rum in payment for items i bought them, once i get back to hawaii! lol! i dont like grape juice. Peace

 

[JohnnyReb]

Sorry to hear that about your sister but I’m glad she got out when she could. before he killed her. Not it all depends, if they were not married in a Catholic Church by a priest then I believe, although I could be wrong, that their marriage in the view of the CC is not valid.

Well one person told me since he was Catholic and the marriage was not in a Catholic church (he was married in a church only because she wanted it) then it wasn’t. But I have to say, what the CC says about it isn’t that important to me. Sometimes divorce is the only option. When I hear the scriptures say things like “what God has joined together, let no man seperate” I see that Christ is saying that the responsible part of causing the seperation will have to answer to God, and if its both, then both will.

 

[hizstory]

i will pray for your parents. that they regain their faith. your faith can bear a great witness to them. on a lighter note. all we an get is near beer in iraq. 0% alchohol. how depressing… the kids outside the wire said they could get us whiskey if we gave them money, i dont doubt it. they run and get us bread all the time. but we are not allowed the same kids offered to find me a wife once they found out i was single too… (and i think they could have done this too!) oh well. i got 2 guys, that owe me 1 bottle of rum in payment for items i bought them, once i get back to hawaii! lol! i dont like grape juice. Peace

I might be interested in the wife thing

 

[jrose90]

I’m from a Missionary Baptist Church, and we use real wine for the communion, but at weddings at the church there is no dancing and no alcohol. I’ve asked around, and the reasons I’ve gotten for the lack of drinking/dancing is that it “leads to sin,” not necessarily that it IS a sin by itself.

 

[Being_Brave]

i will pray for your parents. that they regain their faith. your faith can bear a great witness to them. on a lighter note. all we an get is near beer in iraq. 0% alchohol. how depressing… the kids outside the wire said they could get us whiskey if we gave them money, i dont doubt it. they run and get us bread all the time. but we are not allowed the same kids offered to find me a wife once they found out i was single too… (and i think they could have done this too!) oh well. i got 2 guys, that owe me 1 bottle of rum in payment for items i bought them, once i get back to hawaii! lol! i dont like grape juice. Peace

haha! that’s funny! My brother was in Iraq for 4 years and he had a similar story about a man who tried to sell him his daughter to bring back with him!

Thanks for your prayers

 

[autdrew]

Cant quite agree that having no alcohol in the house leads to kids who dont drink.
I was raised as a Baptist by a teetotaler. Didnt drink a lot as a teen but I did get drunk sometimes. Ended up with a real problem with drinking later on. Mom still doesnt drink, dad wasnt in the home but his drinking problem was probably part of mine. My husband was raised with a drinker & is a teetotaler! Guess it can go either way, some kids are hardheaded like me!

 

[Cat]

I was raised Conference Baptist, and our denomination did not drink alcohol. It was stated in our Church Code of Membership–any drinking of alcohol or assocation with alcohol (including t-shirts, posters, bumper stickers, etc.) was not allowed for the members of our church.

There were people who attended our church but who did not join the church because of this provision; I remember a family from Germany who was a faithful family and participated in our church life, but could not join because they drank beer and wine.

In addition, I was raised by parents who were teetotallers from teetotalling families. My father came out of a German Reformed background, and these denominations, at least until recently, do not drink alcohol.

My mother came out of a Baptist background, and she did not drink alcohol.

I know of only a few family members that drank alcohol, and both of those were alcoholics who died young of alcohol-related diseases. My family condemned the drinking of alcohol. In fact, my father is now 81 (and looks about 60). For over a year, he has been a daily customer at a restaurant that just opened out in the farm country close to his home. He was one of those customers who knew all the staff by name, who poured his own coffee, and who tipped big. In fact, the owner of the restaurant approached my father for a large cash loan to expand the restaurant, and my father was planning to loan him the money. Then he discovered that the “expansion” was actually a plan to acquire a liquor license and begin serving alcohol. My father–bless his heart!–now refuses to walk into this restaurant, and he told the owner to forget it. He said that the restaurant shouldn’t be serving liquor when there are so many families with children and teenagers who eat at the restaurant. GO DAD!

BTW, I have to say this–there seems to be people who believe that even though Baptists and other Protestants say they don’t drink, in reality they drink in secret. I’m sure that this happens, but I grew up and spent 47 years in Protestant, non-drinking denominations, and I never saw it. All of my friends never, ever took a drink, and many of them avoided any restaurant that served liquor.

The “alcohol” thing was the single biggest stumbling block for me to come into the Catholic Church. Mary, the saints, True Presence–all of these things were easy and I embraced the teachings because I believe that they are Biblical and traditional. But the drinking–I still find it utterly disgusting. If I could make one change in the Catholic Church, it would be a decree from the Vatican that condemns the drinking of alcohol. Since the Church does NOT teach that alcohol is a sin, I intellectually assent. But emotionally, I totally disagree with the Church on this, and believe that anyone who drinks alcohol in any quantity is walking close to a very dangerous precipice.

The main reason why some Christians don’t drink is that the Bible makes it clear that we are to come out from the world and be different. In the NEW Testament, St. Paul teaches against drunkenness (Gal. 5 21, Rom. 13:13). Yes, I know that many people drink and don’t get drunk. But many do. When there is alcohol, there is always the possibility that someone will be unable to control themselves and pass over into drunkenness and alcoholism.

I can’t understand why anyone would want to tempt others who are weaker. Alcohol is a factor in tragic auto accidents and in home and family destruction.

Another reason why alcohol is avoided is that we, as Christians, don’t NEED alcohol to have fun and fellowship. One of the things I miss about being Protestant is all the social times and parties and fun, all alcohol-free. We were hilarious. We didn’t need some drug to make us jollier–we were jolly in the Lord and in each other. Many of us felt (and I still feel) that it is wrong to “medicate ourselves” to have more fun. What is the difference between alcohol and other recreational drugs, anyway?

I realize that many of you will disagree strongly with me. But I hope that my post helps you to see why Christians choose not to drink alcohol. In recent years, especially in the last ten years, the restrictions against alcohol are changing in the evangelical churches, and many Baptist Christians do drink now. I find this very sad, although I’m sure that many of you see it as a victory for reason and correct Biblical teaching.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

This reminds me of a comment I heard in my protestant days from a local evangelist / preacher.

He was telling the story of a protestant evangelistic campaign in England. The local protestants were scandalised by the flash Americans with all their materialistic advantages - driving the latest rented cars, staying in plush hotels, wearing expensive clothes. In fact, they were so upset they were nearly stubbing out their cigarettes in their pints.

Meanwhile the horrified Americans, observing the British protestant attitude to beer and cigarettes …

 

[Nine_Two]

This is an interesting thread.

It seems the Baptist issue is not that it is sin, but they don’t believe others will be able to help themselves if they do it in moderation, as though everyone is on the brink of getting drunk.

I challenge anyone who believes this to go to a series of parties (with alcohol) with the same people, you’ll notice it is always the very same people who don’t drink in moderation. Get to know those people and you’ll learn they have no problem getting drunk on their own.

The comment that kids growing up without it removes the temptation is just wrong. Alcohol is everpresent in this culture. Just because it isn’t in the home doesn’t mean kids don’t see it being drunk, and if it is treated like a forbidden fruit, they’ll want it. I didn’t grow up in a heavily drinking household, but we did have wine sometimes with dinners, and every time it was served I was offered some, and most times I refused because I didn’t like the taste. I eventually gave in because I realized I was too old to be the only one at the table with milk.

This reminds me of the time I visited an Orthodox monestary with a Protestant group. The monks served us lunch and a number of my companions were horrified to find them serving us wine (at least after they discovered it was wine, some initially believing it was grape juice).

That’s my two cents. I’m off to have an egg nog with some rum in it.

 

[cooterhein]

I was raised Conference Baptist, and our denomination did not drink alcohol. It was stated in our Church Code of Membership–any drinking of alcohol or assocation with alcohol (including t-shirts, posters, bumper stickers, etc.) was not allowed for the members of our church.

That seems a little unreasonable. Anyone ever try to get that changed?

There were people who attended our church but who did not join the church because of this provision; I remember a family from Germany who was a faithful family and participated in our church life, but could not join because they drank beer and wine.

Hmmm, yes, it does take a bit of the edge off when your church membership doesn’t affect your eternal destination.

In addition, I was raised by parents who were teetotallers from teetotalling families. My father came out of a German Reformed background, and these denominations, at least until recently, do not drink alcohol.

German Reformed doesn’t do alcohol? I hadn’t heard that. How can they call themselves German?

I know of only a few family members that drank alcohol, and both of those were alcoholics who died young of alcohol-related diseases.

I would guess that’s why most of your family doesn’t drink. They know the family history for those who do, and along with knowing that, they’re smart about what they do.

BTW, I have to say this–there seems to be people who believe that even though Baptists and other Protestants say they don’t drink, in reality they drink in secret. I’m sure that this happens, but I grew up and spent 47 years in Protestant, non-drinking denominations, and I never saw it. All of my friends never, ever took a drink, and many of them avoided any restaurant that served liquor.

Closet alcoholism among Protestants is extremely rare. No Protestant really has to belong to a church that forbids drinking. They can join a different Protestant church that allows it, or they can decline membership and do what the German family did. By comparison, you look at the number of Catholics that admit to using contraception or the number of Catholic women that get abortions in America…Well, you know what I’m saying. Careful with that beam in your eye.

More specifically…it depends on the poll, but anywhere from 80 to 90 percent of Catholic Americans say they’ve used at least one form of contraception. And even though around 21 to 23 percent of Americans are Catholic, Catholics represent about 45% of the traffic at abortion clinics. Perhaps that’s because the Catholics who use contraception aren’t as committed to it as they could be…?

By comparison, the percentage of closet alcoholics among Protestants is practically nil. Certainly less than 5%, although it’s kind of hard to take a poll. If someone’s hiding their alcohol consumption from everyone else, what do you think they’ll say on a survey? Still, even if we can’t get reliable numbers on something like that, you really get the impression that Catholics aren’t in a position to joke around about people who don’t take the prohibitions of their church seriously.

The “alcohol” thing was the single biggest stumbling block for me to come into the Catholic Church. Mary, the saints, True Presence–all of these things were easy

Wow! I almost can’t believe you’re being completely serious. Treasury of merit? Papal infallibility? Comparison of how church leadership functions now to how it functioned in the first millennium? None of that was an issue? You didn’t spend a great length of time seriously considering the possibility that the EOC is the better option? All of that was easy.

Wow. Ok. Either Conference Baptist is really different from what I think it is, or you must not have fully engaged some of the major issues.

I can’t understand why anyone would want to tempt others who are weaker.

Even though months or even years will pass between the times that I have a tiny drink in order to see how it tastes along with some really good food, I do try to be smart about who I do it around. Even when I’m talking about it, I only bring it up or choose to engage the issue if it’s the right kind of person to talk about it with. The mere fact that I’ve consumed a grand total of maybe 20 oz. of alcoholic beverage in my entire life doesn’t necessarily mean I’m tempting those who are weaker.

Another reason why alcohol is avoided is that we, as Christians, don’t NEED alcohol to have fun and fellowship.

This is very true. Even if someone isn’t an alcoholic, depending on it in order to be in a certain kind of mood is basically alcohol dependency. That needs to be avoided too- not just as a first step to alcoholism, but as something that’s pretty unhealthy in its own right.

What is the difference between alcohol and other recreational drugs, anyway?

Alcohol’s legal. That’s one of the main things.

I realize that many of you will disagree strongly with me. But I hope that my post helps you to see why Christians choose not to drink alcohol. In recent years, especially in the last ten years, the restrictions against alcohol are changing in the evangelical churches, and many Baptist Christians do drink now. I find this very sad, although I’m sure that many of you see it as a victory for reason and correct Biblical teaching.

I certainly support you in abstaining from alcohol. I think it’s a good decision. You should go for it. It’s a good thing to do. But what I don’t support is your desire to make sure everyone else does the same thing. They don’t have to. I’m not Catholic, and even I can see that the Church says something incredibly similar to that. Come on now.

 

[cooterhein]

The comment that kids growing up without it removes the temptation is just wrong. Alcohol is everpresent in this culture. Just because it isn’t in the home doesn’t mean kids don’t see it being drunk, and if it is treated like a forbidden fruit, they’ll want it.

It’s easy to say it’s ever present when you grew up drinking wine as a kid, but when it’s not in the house and your parents want to make sure its presence is very close to non-existent at all other times, it’s possible to do this. And then if you go to a Christian college where at least the campus is dry, college doesn’t have to be much of an issue either.

In any case, let’s say you’re a kid, your parents don’t ever have alcohol in the house…wait a minute, let’s say you know a kid like that but you’re his friend. What kind of kid is going to, uh, appropriate some of their parents’ beer for someone else’s kid, particularly when their parents enforce far more draconian policies than yours do? Is it really worth the risk? If your parents get mad at you, you’re still their kid. But if it’s someone else’s parents and you’ve corrupted their child…that’s pretty heavy, and maybe that kid won’t be allowed to come over to your house anymore.

I was that kid. My friends knew what my parents were like, and none of my friends were willing to take that risk. Not that it ever came up as anything more than an “Ohhh snap!” hypothetical, because it wasn’t treated like an adult beverage. It was treated like something that smart adults avoid and stupid adults ruin their lives with. (No offense).

Consequently, and in addition to having what was effectively zero access to alcohol of my own to consume, there probably were a few times as a kid when I saw people who’d had a beer or two but I didn’t necessarily know it because their behavior wasn’t really different. There were also a few times when I saw people who were obviously drunk (mainly at sporting events), and that just reinforced the idea that stupid people ruin their lives with this stuff. Then they say and/or do stupid things, make a couple of poor decisions, and wind up getting hauled away by security. To a 10-year-old who was raised like me, you don’t think about how many people enjoyed a couple of beers responsibly and had no incident. There’s more of a tendency to be glad that neither of your parents will ever do something like that.

 

[Nine_Two]

It’s easy to say it’s ever present when you grew up drinking wine as a kid, but when it’s not in the house and your parents want to make sure its presence is very close to non-existent at all other times, it’s possible to do this. And then if you go to a Christian college where at least the campus is dry, college doesn’t have to be much of an issue either.

I didn’t grow up drinking wine. It was had occasionally, once or twice a year sort of thing, and when I was a teenager I was offered a small amount, and I almost always refused.
In spite of that exposure I grew up never caring.
I suppose a child can be sheltered from alcohol, if you’re very careful about what movies, TV shows music, etc. a youth watches, as well as where they go to keep those billboards out of their eyes. When I say be careful what they watch I don’t mean the normal kids shouldn’t watch, I mean keeping children away from sports and such. Alcohol advertising is ever present there. Even books for youth (we’re not talking young kids, we’re talking teenagers) have alcohol.
So yes, you can shelter them from it.

In any case, let’s say you’re a kid, your parents don’t ever have alcohol in the house…wait a minute, let’s say you know a kid like that but you’re his friend. What kind of kid is going to, uh, appropriate some of their parents’ beer for someone else’s kid, particularly when their parents enforce far more draconian policies than yours do? Is it really worth the risk? If your parents get mad at you, you’re still their kid. But if it’s someone else’s parents and you’ve corrupted their child…that’s pretty heavy, and maybe that kid won’t be allowed to come over to your house anymore.

Why do you assume a kid is going to sneak some if there is alcohol in the house? Your issue seems to be that you think absolutely no one has any self control.

What about letting kids into stores? Isn’t there the danger that they’ll steal stuff, the temptation is there and theft is a sin, so isn’t going shopping with a youth and telling them they can’t have something there just tempting them unnecessarily?

Normal people have self control, and while kids do dumb things, and short of a straight jacket you can’t prevent kids from doing them.

I was that kid. My friends knew what my parents were like, and none of my friends were willing to take that risk. Not that it ever came up as anything more than an “Ohhh snap!” hypothetical, because it wasn’t treated like an adult beverage. It was treated like something that smart adults avoid and stupid adults ruin their lives with. (No offense).

Interesting. I actually am offended by that “no offense”, it’s like your saying that because I have alcoholic beverages occasionally I’m going to ruin my life. I suppose if you grow up being taught that it is something only dumb people ever touch then you’re going to fall into the sin of pride.

Consequently, and in addition to having what was effectively zero access to alcohol of my own to consume, there probably were a few times as a kid when I saw people who’d had a beer or two but I didn’t necessarily know it because their behavior wasn’t really different. There were also a few times when I saw people who were obviously drunk (mainly at sporting events), and that just reinforced the idea that stupid people ruin their lives with this stuff. Then they say and/or do stupid things, make a couple of poor decisions, and wind up getting hauled away by security. To a 10-year-old who was raised like me, you don’t think about how many people enjoyed a couple of beers responsibly and had no incident. There’s more of a tendency to be glad that neither of your parents will ever do something like that.

This thread has been unanimous in the interpretation of scripture that drunkenness is a sin, but as you admit you saw people who had alcohol who were not visibly affected. Moderate drinking of alcohol does not make one drunk, nor does getting drunk once ruin your life (although I agree it should be avoided). I’ve certainly seen the negative aspects of alcohol up close and personal, I’ve seen people who have ruined their lives, I’ve seen people who have made asses of themselves. But always it was when moderation was ignored.

Your original point was that alcohol is bad because it leads to sin, not because it is in itself sinful, yet in this post you’ve blurred the line. You’ve made it clear that you think just touching the stuff automatically creates a related sin.

I honestly don’t care if people decide not to drink, and I know many who don’t, my issue is when they decide to look down on those who do drink (whether moderately or not). The bible is just as strong, if not stronger in condemning pride, afterall Jesus never told the Pharisees off for being drunk, even though we know they drunk wine.

 

[cooterhein]

]I suppose a child can be sheltered from alcohol, if you’re very careful about what movies, TV shows music, etc. a youth watches, as well as where they go to keep those billboards out of their eyes. When I say be careful what they watch I don’t mean the normal kids shouldn’t watch, I mean keeping children away from sports and such. Alcohol advertising is ever present there. Even books for youth (we’re not talking young kids, we’re talking teenagers) have alcohol.
So yes, you can shelter them from it.

Hey, guess who grew up without a TV? Books were pre-screened and carefully monitored, too. Music as well.

You could say I was sheltered. And you’d be right.

Why do you assume a kid is going to sneak some if there is alcohol in the house? Your issue seems to be that you think absolutely no one has any self control.

I don’t assume a kid will always sneak some if it’s there. Just saying the odds are a lot better, and a kid’s much less likely to get it from a friend’s house.

What about letting kids into stores? Isn’t there the danger that they’ll steal stuff, the temptation is there and theft is a sin, so isn’t going shopping with a youth and telling them they can’t have something there just tempting them unnecessarily?

If you even remotely believe that’s a good argument, you won’t allow adults in stores either. Comparisons work better when there’s more in common, too- for example, shopping isn’t exactly optional. Drinking is. Even if there are some low-to-moderate risks that come with them, you have to do necessary things because they’re necessary. Comparing necessary things to completely unnecessary things doesn’t work so well.

Maybe you have an example of something that fits that description? Something that’s optional for adults and illegal for children would be perfect. I already listed smoking and gambling in an earlier post. Are there any others that you’d like to add to the list? I don’t think shopping qualifies on either count, and stealing’s out because it’s illegal for everyone.

Normal people have self control, and while kids do dumb things, and short of a straight jacket you can’t prevent kids from doing them.

I’ve heard this kind of thing before, but it tends to be in the context of teaching kids about safe sex because you can’t expect them to actually wait until marriage.

Interesting. I actually am offended by that “no offense”, it’s like your saying that because I have alcoholic beverages occasionally I’m going to ruin my life.

I also have alcoholic beverages occasionally. Probably less often than you and in greater moderation, but that’s beside the point. The point was that an alcohol-free upbringing does not necessarily lead to a “forbidden fruit” allure. (Post 32).

I suppose if you grow up being taught that it is something only dumb people ever touch then you’re going to fall into the sin of pride.

Wow, if it’s not the allure of the forbidden fruit, it’s the sin of pride. There’s just no good way to do this, is there?

Look, any approach you take is going to have some upside and some downside, no matter how you go about doing it. If you raise your kids without alcohol, the upside is that you can accomplish the stated goal- minimize the risk of alcoholism and make sure they don’t consume any before the legal age. The downside could be pride, failure to accomplish the stated goal through the forbidden fruit phenomenon, and so forth. So you try to minimize the bad without compromising the good.

On the other hand, you might have a different set of stated goals. Maybe you want to avoid alcoholism in your kids’ future, but you don’t care if they have a few drinks before they’re legal. So yeah, maybe some of the things from the original “downside” list are easier to avoid. But then again, maybe there’s a lower rate of success in avoiding alcoholism, and maybe you run into some people who have a difference of opinion on the slightly illegal practice of bending the drinking age. A lot of what you do depends on what your stated goals are as a parent, the degree to which you’re willing to make that happen, and the degree to which you believe you can avoid some of the downside.

My parents were willing to go pretty far. I was sheltered, there was a risk (though not a certainty) of becoming something of a prideful abolitionist, and there was a risk (again, not a certainty) of causing me to rebel against a comparatively stringent upbringing. But no matter what you do, there’s going to be risks. There are no zero-risk possibilities- you’re always going to be risking one thing or another. Different people put different things at different levels of priority. The way your parents raised you, it seems that the risk of underage drinking was not something they took great pains to avoid. There was also a comparatively greater risk (though not a certainty) of alcoholism later on. It seems they were willing to accept that risk. And yes, I know that means decreasing other kinds of risks. That’s how it tends to work; there’s always a trade-off.

Your original point was that alcohol is bad because it leads to sin, not because it is in itself sinful, yet in this post you’ve blurred the line. You’ve made it clear that you think just touching the stuff automatically creates a related sin.

No, I do a little bit of drinking now that I’m of legal age, and it’s definitely not a sin. The point I was making was in response to the way you assumed that an alcohol-free household is likely to lead to a “forbidden fruit” sort of allure to alcoholic beverages, and I was describing how it can be done in such a way that it takes on the appearance of something that’s not alluring at all. With that bit of clarification, I hope I at least succeeded in doing that.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

One of the things we need to be aware of is that some Protestant denominations formed when alcoholism was a real problem, whereas the Catholic Church has been around since the year dot. While alcoholism has always been a problem, getting hold of wine or other fermented drinks would have been more difficult in the early days of the church. They didn’t have the mass production methods available today.

When John Wesley formed the Methodists, alcoholism was rampant in the lower classes in England, along with a lot of other social problems. In fact, he is sometimes credited with helping to avoid a French Revolution in England, as he did so much to revive social concern in English society.

As a result, the Methodists were anti-alcohol. Now my old Presbyterian pastor was an ex-Methodist by training, and he was very anti-alcohol. But I think that was also due to his experience at trying to help alcoholics. He knew what a battle they faced.

When I was atheist, I drank a bit too much, but I was a far cry from being an alcoholic. Yet my father was an alcoholic. On the other hand, I think if he’d been able to control his own inner demons, he would not have been so dependent on alcohol.

In my Presbyterian days and for pretty much all of my Protestant period, except for the earliest period, I didn’t drink at all. Since becoming Catholic, I’ve started drinking a bit, but not much (on average I suppose I drink about a can of a light alcohol once a week, or a bit more).

So the choice to drink is going to boil down to training, indoctrination, personal choice, family background, social mores, propensity to alcoholism, and a few other factors.

My own observation is that (in Australia) at least, a number of Protestants are not averse to having a wine or two with dinner, and that the hardline teetotal attitude is softening. But a lot of them still do not drink.

For Catholics, I don’t think much has changed. If anything it might be a bit better. I think Protestants in Australia used to think Catholics were drunk half the time, since they equated the Catholic Church with Irish Catholics, and unfortunately there was often a tradition of alcoholism.

But there are other factors as well. Fifty years ago a drunk could get away with driving, provided he didn’t have an accident. But society doesn’t allow much scope for drink driving these days. But then fifty years ago, a lot of people still didn’t have cars, and they walked home.

The reality is though that by not drinking, the Protestants aren’t missing much really. Oh, a nice glass of wine is a minor pleasure, but when it’s all said and done, they’re avoiding one major potential problem altogether.

 

[Cat]

One of the things we need to be aware of is that some Protestant denominations formed when alcoholism was a real problem, whereas the Catholic Church has been around since the year dot. While alcoholism has always been a problem, getting hold of wine or other fermented drinks would have been more difficult in the early days of the church. They didn’t have the mass production methods available today.

When John Wesley formed the Methodists, alcoholism was rampant in the lower classes in England, along with a lot of other social problems. In fact, he is sometimes credited with helping to avoid a French Revolution in England, as he did so much to revive social concern in English society.

As a result, the Methodists were anti-alcohol. Now my old Presbyterian pastor was an ex-Methodist by training, and he was very anti-alcohol. But I think that was also due to his experience at trying to help alcoholics. He knew what a battle they faced.

When I was atheist, I drank a bit too much, but I was a far cry from being an alcoholic. Yet my father was an alcoholic. On the other hand, I think if he’d been able to control his own inner demons, he would not have been so dependent on alcohol.

In my Presbyterian days and for pretty much all of my Protestant period, except for the earliest period, I didn’t drink at all. Since becoming Catholic, I’ve started drinking a bit, but not much (on average I suppose I drink about a can of a light alcohol once a week, or a bit more).

So the choice to drink is going to boil down to training, indoctrination, personal choice, family background, social mores, propensity to alcoholism, and a few other factors.

My own observation is that (in Australia) at least, a number of Protestants are not averse to having a wine or two with dinner, and that the hardline teetotal attitude is softening. But a lot of them still do not drink.

For Catholics, I don’t think much has changed. If anything it might be a bit better. I think Protestants in Australia used to think Catholics were drunk half the time, since they equated the Catholic Church with Irish Catholics, and unfortunately there was often a tradition of alcoholism.

But there are other factors as well. Fifty years ago a drunk could get away with driving, provided he didn’t have an accident. But society doesn’t allow much scope for drink driving these days. But then fifty years ago, a lot of people still didn’t have cars, and they walked home.

The reality is though that by not drinking, the Protestants aren’t missing much really. Oh, a nice glass of wine is a minor pleasure, but when it’s all said and done, they’re avoiding one major potential problem altogether.

This is a very good post and one that’s worthy of attention.

Many of the Protestant, especially Baptist and other evangelical viewpoints, concerning alcohol, arose because of the way drinking alcohol was done during the settlement of the American frontier. Back then, drinking was not " a glass of wine with a good meal," or “a beer with your buds during the football game.”

Back then, a “saloon” was a place for men, not women, unless the women were “working girls.”

Many of the pioneer women who were left at home with children saw the saloon as a place where “unsavory activities” were available to their husbands, and they didn’t like this much.

Women lost their husband or fathers to alcohol. Back then it was devastating and dangerous for a woman to be without a man on the frontier.

There was a place for frontier men to go and chat and play checkers without the presence of alcohol–the local general store. That was OK with the women. Also, there was lots of opportunity for men to be part of church fellowships. So there was no need for a man to head for the saloon after a hard day of work breaking sod and tending stock.

Many pioneer towns didn’t have saloons–they were dry towns. The town where my father lives, a very small town in the farmlands, was dry until just a few weeks ago, when the people voted to allow establishments to sell liquor. Most of the older people in the town are only a generation removed from the pioneers and these folks who remember the reasons why the town was dry are dead now. Only a few of them, like my Dad, were left to take a stand against all the Chicago-type people who never lived out in the country, never had any ancestors who lived out in the country, and simly can’t understand why these country hicks can see harm in liquor. For the most part, the old folks like my dad appeared foolish and backwoods to the sophisticated people who decided to bring the little town into the 21st Century.

Ah, well, time marches on, and at least now there are laws that protect people from liquor abuse, although strangely, people are still being killed in liquor-related accidents (not just “drunk” driving, but people who thought they were drinking moderately), and families are still destroyed by liquor abuse and alcoholism. So much for “responsible” drinking. I don’t believe it. I work with intelligent people in the hospital who STILL joke around about “driving buzzed” and forgetting to designate a driver–they actually think this is funny. I think it’s criminal, but if I spoke out against them, I would be considered a hick and a fanatic, just like my Dad and those dear old folks in his small town that is now harboring a demon.

At any rate, a reading of the Little House books by Laura Ingalls Wilder will make it clear that the women of the frontier did NOT approve of drinking alcohol. Ms. Wilder describes several events throughout her childhood that help us to understand why there was such a negative feeling against liquor use by women especially. I would recommend such reading, not just of Ms. Wilder’s books, but other histories of the American frontier. These books describe the history behind so many church stands against alcohol use.

 

[Being_Brave]

It’s easy to say it’s ever present when you grew up drinking wine as a kid, but when it’s not in the house and your parents want to make sure its presence is very close to non-existent at all other times, it’s possible to do this. And then if you go to a Christian college where at least the campus is dry, college doesn’t have to be much of an issue either.

In that ideal situation, sheltered completely, where the child is never really told (or warned) of the evils of the world (maybe their parents only promote the “warm-fuzzies” of religion and don’t discuss the bad parts), then sure, it’s definitely possible to have kids who are never tempted. But in the real world, even the most obedient children can break a rule or two, simply because they are human. I really don’t buy into the 100% nurture idea. When it comes to kids; as parents, we are there to teach and guide them, but God gave them free will. Sheltered or not, even the Amish loose a few young adults during Rumspringa.

We were not allowed to be around it and alcohol was almost a “potty-word” growing up, yet two of my siblings are “social drinkers” and one is actually an alcoholic. I’m the only one of four that doesn’t smoke or drink (and they’re all Baptists - I’m the Catholic). It’s not that we weren’t raised to stay away from it, we just happened to leave the shelter of our parents’ home.

 

[dconklin]

My father who was an alcoholic for 25 years (now sober thanks be to God) is a Baptist. One day I went to a church picnic with him and my mother. My father decided to boast about being sober since he became a Christian at which point a retired Baptist pastor remarked that “people who drink still go to heaven, they just might not get there in a straight line.” I thought that was actually a pretty wise rebuttal to my father’s boasting.

When I first read this I took the less than straight line to infer Purgatory. I guess it’s Monday.