Baptist at my Door

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The “Trail of Blood” is so false it isn’t even funny. I can’t believe that someone would have come up with something like that.
Someone who began their walk with God in a fundamental church and had no reason to doubt the reliability of such a document wouldn’t realize it was false. I swallowed everything I was told about those poor lost Catholics who re-crucify Christ at every Mass, and worship Mary and statues and are working to earn their salvation, etc… because I trusted them to teach me the truth. I was just a little ol’ dumb sheep. 😊
 
I wonder if this argument would work?

We see that God preserved the genealogy of Jesus, so we could prove that He was the Messiah.
Through out all the wars, captivities and such, God preserved this genealogy for us.
Wouldn’t it make sense that God would preserve the “genealogy” of His church so we could prove which one is His church?

We can show that through out the ages right from the early church writings, that the bishops of Rome have been listed. To this very day we can see a list of the bishops of Rome which match up with the earliest lists written in the church.

One can’t say “well the winner writes the books”, because God is the winner, and through out all that happen through out the Old Testament history, God preserved the genealogy of Jesus, therefore doesn’t it makes sense to that He also has preserved the “genealogy” of His church.

Ask that person to show you the Genealogy of the baptist church. Not just saying that “well we were all these heretic groups which the church stamped out”, but an actually list of leaders which show that they are linked right from the apostles.

If their are the Church that Jesus established, then there should be a “genealogy”.
 
can someone tell me who is calvin miller. i know he is baptist. but is there anything else i need to know? i will appreciated your help. May the Sacred Heart of Jesus be Adored, Glorified, Loved & Preserved throughout the world, now & forever. Sacred Heart of Jesus, please pray for me. Saint Jude, Worker of Miracles, please pray for me. Saint Jude, Helper of the Hopeless, please pray for me. Amen:)
 
Here is Calvin Miller’s web page, wheaton.edu/learnres/ARCSC/collects/sc24/bio.htm

From trail of blood, “3. The horizontal lines at the bottom have between them the nicknames given to Baptists during the passing years and ages – Novations, Montanists, Paulicians and Waldenses.”

users.aol.com/libcfl/chart.htm

Montanus was a recent convert when he first began to prophesy in the village of Ardabau in Phrygia. He is said by Jerome to have been previously a priest of Cybele; but this is perhaps a later invention intended to connect his ecstasies with the dervish-like behavior of the priests and devotees of the “great goddess”. The same prophetic gift was believed to have descended also upon his two companions, the prophetesses Maximilla and Prisca or Priscilla. Their headquarters were in the village of Pepuza. The anonymous opponent of the sect describes the method of prophecy (Eusebius, V, xvii, 2-3): first the prophet appears distraught with terror (en parekstasei), then follows quiet (adeia kai aphobia, fearlessness); beginning by studied vacancy of thought or passivity of intellect (ekousios amathia), he is seized by an uncontrollable madness (akousios mania psyches). The prophets did not speak as messengers of God: “Thus saith the Lord,” but described themselves as possessed by God and spoke in His Person. “I am the Father, the Word, and the Paraclete,” said Montanus (Didymus, “De Trin.”, III, xli); and again: “I am the Lord God omnipotent, who have descended into to man”, and “neither an angel, nor an ambassador, but I, the Lord, the Father, am come” (Epiphanius, “Hær.”, xlviii, 11). And Maximilla said: “Hear not me, but hear Christ” (ibid.); and: “I am driven off from among the sheep like a wolf [that is, a false prophet–cf. Matt., vii, 15]; I am not a wolf, but I am speech, and spirit, and power.” This possession by a spirit, which spoke while the prophet was incapable of resisting, is described by the spirit of Montanus: “Behold the man is like a lyre, and I dart like the plectrum. The man sleeps, and I am awake” (Epiphanius, “Hær.”, xlviii, 4). newadvent.org/cathen/10521a.htm

The cardinal point of the Paulician heresy is a distinction between the God who made and governs the material world and the God of heaven who created souls, who alone should be adored. They thought all matter bad. It seems therefore obvious to count them as one of the many neo-Manichaean sects, in spite of their own denial and that of modern writers (Ter-Mkrttschian, Conybeare, Adeney, loc. cit.; Harnack, “Lehrbuch der Dogmengeschicte”, Tübingen, 1909, II, 528). But there is a strong Marcionite element too. They rejected the Old Testament; there was no Incarnation, Christ was an angel sent into the world by God, his real mother was the heavenly Jerusalem. His work consisted only in his teaching; to believe in him saves men from judgment. The true baptism and Eucharist consist in hearing his word, as in John, iv, 10. But many Paulicians, nevertheless, let their children be baptized by the Catholic clergy. They honoured not the Cross, but only the book of the Gospel. They were Iconoclasts, rejecting all pictures. Their Bible was a fragmentary New Testament. They rejected St. Peter’s epistles because he had denied Christ. They referred always to the “Gospel and Apostle”, apparently only St Luke and St. Paul; though they quoted other Gospels in controversy. newadvent.org/cathen/11583b.htm

Amid such ecclesiastical conditions the Waldenses made the profession of extreme poverty a prominent feature in their own lives, and emphasized by their practice the need for the much neglected task of preaching. newadvent.org/cathen/15527b.htm
 
Q: A Baptist friend of mine told me that he is not a Protestant, since the Baptists didn’t break away from the Catholic Church—they had existed all along under various names, such as Anabaptists, Montanists, and Novations. How do I respond?
A: Your friend’s desire to look into history to substantiate the truth of his faith is commendable. However, he has probably not read a single primary historical source to substantiate this claim of “Baptist successionism.” Instead, he has probably gotten a hold of the booklet Trail of Blood by J.M. Carroll, which puts forth the ideas he passed on to you.
Let’s examine his claims about the sects that he mentions. He claims descent from the Anabaptists, Montanists, and Novations, but was their theology of a Baptist slant?
The Anabaptists baptized babies, and so can in no way be considered the spiritual ancestors to the present-day Baptists. Novations taught that those who had fallen from the faith should never be allowed to repent and return to the fold, since God cannot forgive their sin. The same council that defined the divinity of Christ (Nicea in A.D. 325) condemned the Novations. Montanists were a movement centering around the false prophet Montanus, who taught that the heavenly Jerusalem would soon descend upon his home town, the Phrygian village of Pepuza, and that, to prepare for the imminent coming of Christ, one must practice severe asceticism.
For a person to reject the Baptist successionist view is actually a compliment to the Baptists. In fact, years after having written Trail of Blood, Carroll wrote of himself, “Extensive graduate study and independent investigation of church history has, however, convinced [the author] that the view he once held so dear has not been, and cannot be, verified. On the contrary, surviving primary documents render the successionist view untenable. . . . Although free church groups in ancient and medieval times sometimes promoted doctrines and practices agreeable to modern Baptists, when judged by standards now acknowledged as baptistic, not one of them merits recognition as a Baptist church. Baptists arose in the seventeenth century in Holland and England. They are Protestants, heirs of the reformers” (Baptist Successionism: A Crucial Question in Baptist History [1994], 1–2).
Baptist professor and historian James Edward McGoldrick adds, “Perhaps no other body of professing Christians has had as much difficulty in discerning its historical roots as have the Baptists. A survey of conflicting opinions might lead a perceptive observer to conclude that Baptists suffer from an identity crisis” (ibid., 1).
Encourage your friend to continue studying the history of Christianity by giving him the writings of the Church Fathers. As Newman said in his Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, “To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant.”
– Jason Evert
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0001qq.asp
 
Baptists dont go door to door really, Ive never heard of it
Clearly you’ve never been to Tennessee and had a conversation start with, “are you saved?” 🙂
 
Clearly you’ve never been to Tennessee and had a conversation start with, “are you saved?” 🙂
And it happens in the most unusual places. I was standing in line at the airport recently and a woman noticed the cross I was wearing and said “praise God. Are you saved?”
 
In Denver, I once had a pair of Baptists, a pair of Jehovah’s Witness, a pair of Mormons and a pair of United Pentecostals on my door step at the same time while a Chrisitan Sciencist was visiting me. So, we decussed in my living room, Who is Jesus and what is the atonement. It was interresting to be sure how I phrased anything I said, because what would be clear refutation to say the Jehovah’s Witnesses, could be misunderstood as being in agreement with the other cults.
 
Ask them where the Baptists were when the Canon of the bible wqas being decided.

Ask them where they were when Linus was chosen to succeed Peter.

Ask them how many Baptists were eaten by the Lions in Rome because they weren’t part of the Catholic Church.

Ask them how many baptized confessed their sins to the disciples after Jesus gave the disciples the power to forgive and retain sins AFTER the cross.

Ask them why they don’t believe that Abraham was justified 3 times as the scriptrues say.

Lastly ask them if the bible is the Inerrant word of God and Jesus says “This is my body and this is my blood” why they won’t obey Jesus and eat His body and blood and why they think Jesus is a liar for saying such!
 
I’ve definitely have heard people say that…That is easy.

But the trail of blood thing really caught me off guard. I couldn’t believe she was claiming that.
I had not even heard of the trail of blood until this thread. Based on that, if it was true then why was never preached about during my 30 years as Protestant?
 
I had not even heard of the trail of blood until this thread. Based on that, if it was true then why was never preached about during my 30 years as Protestant?
Were you independant, fundamental, premillenial, KJV-only Baptist? I think it’s pretty exclusive to that section of Protestantism (though they’ll say that because of the Trail of Blood that they aren’t Protestants since they didn’t break away from the RCC). It’s not something that’s preached - rather it was discussed in Sunday School, causal conversation, or given to anyone who asked about Baptist history. I had a copy of it until a few months ago when I was cleaning out the bookshelves and decided it was time to put it in “File 13.”
 
I had not even heard of the trail of blood until this thread. Based on that, if it was true then why was never preached about during my 30 years as Protestant?
I have never heard of this either. While the Southern Baptist Convention is very conservative, they are not nearly as outlandish or ridiculous in their claims as some other independent Baptists. It sounds like these Baptists are just trying to compensate for something, like not being there at the founding of the Church (something most Baptists will agree with), but claiming that they actually were. 🤷
 
Your Baptist visitor seemed to be badgering more than converting. Your a Christian so do you need converting?? I am Prodestant more specificly Assembly of God. I have a very devout Catholic friend. The more I discuss theology with him the more I realize Catholics and Prodestants have more in common than most think. Cathololics belive in the Triune God as do Prodestants. Jesus said you would know his followers by the love they show one another that speaks very poorly of her. If your wrong she should restore you gently as the Bible says and not beat you over the head with with history facts and fiction at your front door. And if she is wrong you should restore gently which seems to be your heart. We have slightly different doctrines but striving for the same God. We have to find our common ground to start working on restoration of the other and obviously she was out to fill her pride.
Sorry about that… from the Oklahoma Prodestant
Good to hear from you Okieflyer. I just wanted to add that when I go door to door that it is not the apologetics that win souls, but the attitude and prayer that preceded me that makes the difference. The presence of the Spirit in the conversation and presentation is what makes all the difference. Otherwise it is about debate. Christ never said “Go out into the world and debate”.
mdcpensive1
 
I had not even heard of the trail of blood until this thread. Based on that, if it was true then why was never preached about during my 30 years as Protestant?
If you were raised Southern Baptist or as part of one of the more moderate denominations. Then you would have not been exposed to some of these more outlandish ideals. Most educated Baptists today wouldn’t touch the Trail of Blood with a 10 foot battle lance.

Still some of the more whacky fundamentalist denominations of Baptist still try to hold on to this flight of fancy.
 
Were you independant, fundamental, premillenial, KJV-only Baptist?
It’s been a splattering of all. Predominately it was Congregational Holiness. The back woods penecostal. More derogatorially called “Holy Rollers”. Even then after High School I attend several Baptist Churches.
 
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