"Baptist" Church Fathers??

[MicahSixEight]

Hey y’all–

I’ve got a good friend who is a Southern Baptist with a theology degree from a Bible college who, in passing, dropped a reverse Bl. John Henry Cdl. Newman: “true knowledge of Church history would bring anyone out of the Catholic Church.” Has anyone in the apologetics experience come across this claim? I’m curious if there is a list of Church Fathers that Protestants regularly quote to back up their views? I imagine any Church Father they’d quote would either be heretical (to them) on other doctrines or might support Catholic beliefs in other instances. Let me know!

God’s blessings and Mary’s prayers. +

 

[bzkoss236]

Hey y’all–

I’ve got a good friend who is a Southern Baptist with a theology degree from a Bible college who, in passing, dropped a reverse Bl. John Henry Cdl. Newman: “true knowledge of Church history would bring anyone out of the Catholic Church.” Has anyone in the apologetics experience come across this claim? I’m curious if there is a list of Church Fathers that Protestants regularly quote to back up their views? I imagine any Church Father they’d quote would either be heretical (to them) on other doctrines or might support Catholic beliefs in other instances. Let me know!

God’s blessings and Mary’s prayers. +

From my understanding they mostly either misquote or take things written by them out of context.

 

[DavidFilmer]

I’ve got a good friend who is a Southern Baptist with a theology degree from a Bible college who, in passing, dropped a reverse Bl. John Henry Cdl. Newman: “true knowledge of Church history would bring anyone out of the Catholic Church.”

That would be a strange thing for him to say, seeing as how Newman is the most prominent protestant convert to Catholicism EVER.

But your friend got the quote backwards. What Newman said was:

Knowledge of history is the death of Protestantism.

He wrote this in his Apologia pro vita sua, which was an explanation of the reasons he converted (and is a rather tedious thing to read - college graduate-level reading).

As an amusing aside - Newman was aided in his conversion by a Catholic friend. When, at last, he decided to convert, the friend offered to go fetch a priest. Newman said, “what you must do, do quickly.”

 

[RoseSimmons]

“From my understanding they mostly either misquote or take things written by them out of context.” !!!

Wow! I just popped in to see what was on the forum.

Please remember that not just Catholics are members of this forum … let’s not be negative towards those of us who are, for various reasons, not members of the Catholic church at this time.

Signed,
A Pastor’s Wife
Peace
(Guess I’m just one of the “they” referred to above in the quote. Pity.)

 

[landon13]

I really think it is a misquote or taken out of context like how many churches take biblical verses etc out of context. No hate against Protestant brothers and sisters just I’m pretty sure that is.

 

[bzkoss236]

“From my understanding they mostly either misquote or take things written by them out of context.” !!!

Wow! I just popped in to see what was on the forum.

Please remember that not just Catholics are members of this forum … let’s not be negative towards those of us who are, for various reasons, not members of the Catholic church at this time.

Signed,
A Pastor’s Wife
Peace
(Guess I’m just one of the “they” referred to above in the quote. Pity.)

I was talking about my own experiences, and I never said they all do. But every time, in my experience, when a protestant has quoted the Church Fathers in support of a protestant doctrine vs a Catholic doctrine, it was taken out of context, or misquoted.

 

[october_baby]

“From my understanding they mostly either misquote or take things written by them out of context.” !!!

Wow! I just popped in to see what was on the forum.

Please remember that not just Catholics are members of this forum … let’s not be negative towards those of us who are, for various reasons, not members of the Catholic church at this time.

Signed,
A Pastor’s Wife
Peace
(Guess I’m just one of the “they” referred to above in the quote. Pity.)

Your only the “they” if you deny the historical truth of the catholic church. As a former pentecostal, let me be the first to say welcome to CAF and God bless you!

 

[fhansen]

Hey y’all–

I’ve got a good friend who is a Southern Baptist with a theology degree from a Bible college who, in passing, dropped a reverse Bl. John Henry Cdl. Newman: “true knowledge of Church history would bring anyone out of the Catholic Church.” Has anyone in the apologetics experience come across this claim? I’m curious if there is a list of Church Fathers that Protestants regularly quote to back up their views? I imagine any Church Father they’d quote would either be heretical (to them) on other doctrines or might support Catholic beliefs in other instances. Let me know!

God’s blessings and Mary’s prayers. +

Some Protestants don’t value the writings of the ECFs. Others have their favorite quotes from ECFs; as with the bible quotes from their writings can be found to support a variety of views. But overall the ECFs align much more closely with the Roman Catholic and Orthodox faiths, with some of their ideas, such as their understanding of the Real Presence, for example, virtually anathema to many Protestants. I’d suggest studying William Jurgen’s 3 volume set entitled “The Faith of the Early Fathers”. They have a topical index that’s very helpful.

 

[DavidFilmer]

Others have their favorite quotes from ECFs; as with the bible quotes can be found to support a variety of views.

Newman’s hardly an ECF (he died in 1890). But I’ve already provided the quote that Newman ACTUALLY said in post #3. Writing in his Apologia pro vita sua (in which he explains why he converted to the Church from Anglicanism), he ACTUALLY said

Knowledge of history is the death of Protestantism (emphasis mine).

 

[fhansen]

Newman’s hardly an ECF (he died in 1890). But I’ve already provided the quote that Newman ACTUALLY said in post #3. Writing in his Apologia pro vita sua, he ACTUALLY said

Yes, but the way I understand it the Baptist friend was knowingly countering Newman’s statement.

 

[DavidFilmer]

Yes, but the way I understand it the Baptist friend was knowingly countering Newman’s statement.

Oh, maybe. I though the Baptist was supposed to be quoting Newman.

If he’s countering with his own claims of history, all I can say is… bring it, baby!

 

[mlz]

Hey y’all–

I’ve got a good friend who is a Southern Baptist with a theology degree from a Bible college who, in passing, dropped a reverse Bl. John Henry Cdl. Newman: “true knowledge of Church history would bring anyone out of the Catholic Church.” Has anyone in the apologetics experience come across this claim? I’m curious if there is a list of Church Fathers that Protestants regularly quote to back up their views? I imagine any Church Father they’d quote would either be heretical (to them) on other doctrines or might support Catholic beliefs in other instances. Let me know!

God’s blessings and Mary’s prayers. +

Ask for an explanation of this comment then do some research and get back to them. It may be a lack of information on their part.

mlz

 

[MicahSixEight]

That would be a strange thing for him to say, seeing as how Newman is the most prominent protestant convert to Catholicism EVER.

But your friend got the quote backwards. What Newman said was: Quote:
Knowledge of history is the death of Protestantism.

Yes, I know this. That’s why I said “a REVERSE” Bl. John Henry Cdl. Newman.

 

[MicahSixEight]

“From my understanding they mostly either misquote or take things written by them out of context.” !!!

Wow! I just popped in to see what was on the forum.

Please remember that not just Catholics are members of this forum … let’s not be negative towards those of us who are, for various reasons, not members of the Catholic church at this time.

Signed,
A Pastor’s Wife
Peace
(Guess I’m just one of the “they” referred to above in the quote. Pity.)

This is very interesting, Miss Rose.
I understand that we may differ on many teachings. Do you have a list of early Church Fathers that are often quoted to support Baptist/Anabaptist teachings? Or perhaps you could ask your husband (being that he’s a pastor). I’m just very curious as to whom may be quoted for Baptist apologetics.

Thanks!

 

[KendraDZ1902]

 

[DavidFilmer]

Yes, I know this. That’s why I said “a REVERSE” Bl. John Henry Cdl. Newman.

Oh. I thought you had meant to type “reference” but it got mangled by a spell checker. I once made a post about Apostolic ordination that got mangled to say “alcoholically ordained Bishop.” Not really what I had intended, but kinda funny.

 

[DavidFilmer]

Now that I properly understand the question, permit me to atone for my misunderstanding with an on-topic answer.

Someone has already mentioned William Jurgens Faith of the Early Fathers. Volume 1 and 3 are sitting right in front of me as I type. These inexpensive paperback books cite “theologically relevant” sections of a wide variety of Early Church Fathers. But the “gold” is the theological index in the back of each volume. This is something that you could never find with Google. The internet will never replace (or even approximate) this index.

The ECFs were not unanimous in their writings. Prior to doctrine being formally established, it is not uncommon to find some level of dissent. In Jurgen’s doctrinal index, dissenting citations are enclosed in parenthesis. So, I suppose a protestant could cherry-pick those dissenting opinions by looking for anything in parenthesis. This would not constitute out-of-context quoting (because the guy really did dissent).

For most doctrines, the dissent is heavily outnumbered by assenting opinions, so a Catholic can point out that, while the ECFs were not unanimous, the weight of opinion is heavily skewed towards what is now considered doctrine.

There is, however, one particular doctrine that was not held by a majority of ECFs. Not even by a plurality. Not even by one single ECF. Until the matter was settled by Pope Stephen, six ECFs wrote about this doctrine. EVERY ONE OF THEM wrote in opposition to it. Tertullian wrote against it. St Cyprian of Carthage wrote against it (in no uncertain terms). The Seventh Council of Carthage endorsed Cyprian’s teaching against it. Nobody before Pope Stephen endorsed this doctrine (and after Stephen spoke, opposition dried up).

So there is ACTUALLY a Catholic doctrine that was opposed by EVERY SINGLE ECF until some Pope spoke otherwise? You betcha!

That might be pretty good ammo for an Evangelical protestant, except that the doctrine concerned the validity of Christian Baptism by non-Catholics. St. Cyprian would not even use the word “baptize” in such a context - he referred to those “made wet by heretics.” I think that’s funny.

FWIW, St. Cyprian’s nickname was the “African Pope” because of his great influence (Carthage is in Egypt). But the “African Pope” was no match for the Roman Pontiff. Pope Stephen put the smackdown on Cyprian. Full disclosure: St. Cyprian is my all-time favorite ECF.

It is because of Pope Stephen’s teaching that the Church today recognizes the validity of your Baptist buddy’s baptism. One might see why an evangelical protestant might not want to bring up this particular example.

Also, FWIW, St. Cyprian of Carthage was highly instrumental in defining the Canon of the New Testament. Cyprian would not accept your Baptist friend’s Baptism (prior to the Pope Stephen smackdown), but your Baptist friend largely accepts Cyprian’s Canon.

 

[rfournier103]

Every western civilization course I have ever taken, has taught that the Catholic Church was THE original Christian Church. That includes high school (in a VERY liberal PUBLIC school) and my college education (also a state school with NO pro-Catholic bias to be sure).

I think any reputable historian would say that the Catholic Church was the only game in town until the Orthodox came along (plenty of threads on that), and the Protestant Reformation 500 years after THAT. The history speaks for itself.

I still have some of the old textbooks from college, but they’re in my parent’s attic somewheres… Sorry I can’t properly cite them for you

The explanation for the Reformation I was given in my education was that there were abuses and corruption in the Church and reform was needed. That’s a far cry from Protestantism (and Baptists) being around all along…

 

[fhansen]

Every western civilization course I have ever taken, has taught that the Catholic Church was THE original Christian Church. That includes high school (in a VERY liberal PUBLIC school) and my college education (also a state school with NO pro-Catholic bias to be sure).

I think any reputable historian would say that the Catholic Church was the only game in town until the Orthodox came along (plenty of threads on that), and the Protestant Reformation 500 years after THAT. The history speaks for itself.

I still have some of the old textbooks from college, but they’re in my parent’s attic somewheres… Sorry I can’t properly cite them for you

The explanation for the Reformation I was given in my education was that there were abuses and corruption in the Church and reform was needed. That’s a far cry from Protestantism (and Baptists) being around all along…

One adjustment: the Orthodox also trace their roots back to the beginning as individual churches, different from the Protestant groups.

 

[DavidFilmer]

One adjustment: the Orthodox also trace their roots back to the beginning as individual churches, different from the Protestant groups.

Correct. The Orthodox are as Catholic as the (Latin) Catholics. They have seven valid Sacraments, and Latin Catholics rightly genuflect before their Tabernacles (although we are not permitted (by them) to partake thereof, whereas we permit them to partake of our Latin Mass under certain circumstances).