Baptist Church Originated with John The Baptist

  • Thread starter Thread starter CEAbbott
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

CEAbbott

Guest
Hi follow CAF members,
Yes, it’s me again with yet one more crazy outburst from the Baptist on my FB page. I am about to “defriend” her now, but would like your (name removed by moderator)ut on this outrageous defense of her Baptist faith. Please read below and if anyone has ever heard of this crazy argument before and has a link I can send her,I would appreciate any help you can afford me.
Thanks again guys! Her comment is below in red. God bless!

"Where in the bible does it say to baptize non-consenting children? You don’t know scripture, you IGNORE scripture! What did Jesus tell the Pharisee Nicodemus? Let me refer you to Jesus’ words when he said in John 3:5 "VE…RILY, VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, EXCEPT A MAN BE BORN OF WATER AND OF THE SPIRIT, HE CANNOT ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN,That which is born of the FLESH…IS FLESH; and that which is BORN of the SPIRIT…IS spirit! MARVEL NOT that that I said unto thee, YE MUST BE “BORN AGAIN”!. Here, is where your “BAPTIST CHURCH” is formed.We “Born Again Baptists” can trace our roots and lineage right to Jesus and JOHN the BAPTIST! We are Baptists because we choose, of our own free will and volition ,as ADULTS, to- #1. Confess our sinful nature,-#2. Accept Jesus Christ as LORD and Savior and- #3.Submit to the COMMAND of JESUS CHRIST to be BAPTIZED BY IMMERSION (Mark 16:16)> “He that believeth and is “Baptized” SHALL BE SAVED”!!!
 
CEAbbott said:
Hi follow CAF members,
Yes, it’s me again with yet one more crazy outburst from the Baptist on my FB page. I am about to “defriend” her now, but would like your (name removed by moderator)ut on this outrageous defense of her Baptist faith. Please read below and if anyone has ever heard of this crazy argument before and has a link I can send her,I would appreciate any help you can afford me.
Thanks again guys! Her comment is below in red. God bless!

"Where in the bible does it say to baptize non-consenting children? You don’t know scripture, you IGNORE scripture! What did Jesus tell the Pharisee Nicodemus? Let me refer you to Jesus’ words when he said in John 3:5 "VE…RILY, VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, EXCEPT A MAN BE BORN OF WATER AND OF THE SPIRIT, HE CANNOT ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN,That which is born of the FLESH…IS FLESH; and that which is BORN of the SPIRIT…IS spirit! MARVEL NOT that that I said unto thee, YE MUST BE “BORN AGAIN”!. Here, is where your “BAPTIST CHURCH” is formed.We “Born Again Baptists” can trace our roots and lineage right to Jesus and JOHN the BAPTIST! We are Baptists because we choose, of our own free will and volition ,as ADULTS, to- #1. Confess our sinful nature,-#2. Accept Jesus Christ as LORD and Savior and- #3.Submit to the COMMAND of JESUS CHRIST to be BAPTIZED BY IMMERSION (Mark 16:16)> “He that believeth and is “Baptized” SHALL BE SAVED”!!!
Click to expand...
Ask her for just the first two hundred years.

Your friend is very delusional. I’ll place a wager. Within two posts, she’ll bring up the “Trail of Blood”. Just remember, the guy that wrote the book “The Trail of Blood” admitted that he wrote it without any proof whatsoever… simply wishful thinking.
 
Ask a question this person can’t answer.

How can abortion victims be saved if they can’t do any of that?

If they don’t need to do any of that then why do they suddenly become “unsaved” at a certain age? Where is THAT in the Bible?
 
You should defriend this… person before she creates an occasion for you to sin against Charity (at the very least). I’m just sayin’.
 
There is a group that claims to follow the teachings of John the Baptizer. They are called Mandaeans and largely live in the marshes of southern Iraq. Catholic missionaries encountering them in the 16th century referred to them as Saint John Christians. They are monotheistic and have a dualistic belief system that is gnostic. In fact they describe themselves as practicing the only Gnostic religion. I give you this information for your own edification, since I doubt your FB friend would know of the association she is claiming for herself.

If you would like to learn more about the Mandaeans, here is a link:
mandaeanunion.org/History/EN_History_001.htm
 
Last time you got our help and you responded, did she respond?

If she has not finished your previous debate, refuse to debate here until she finishes the previous issue. If she isn’t interested in listening or responding to the previous issue, she won’t respond to your response on this issue. Your spending hours and hours for her to glance at your response, and then just change the subject by writing a different unsubstantiated claim.

People who do not listen are not worth your time. If she continually trashes your faith and doesn’t listen and respond logically to your responses, it is time to stop casting pearls before swine and shake the dust of this “friendship.”
 
She claims you don’t know Scripture but she can’t define Scripture. Ask her what Scripture is…besides the canon given to her by the Catholic Church…didn’t we discuss this issue? How did she respond?
 
CEAbbott said:
Hi follow CAF members,
Yes, it’s me again with yet one more crazy outburst from the Baptist on my FB page.
Click to expand...
CEAbbott. I really want to say this in a spirit of Charity and good will. Please don’t take this as a harsh criticism at all.

We all want to help, really we do, and the volume of replies you have received testifies to the good, holy people on this website who love the faith. I count you in that group as well and laud you for your patience and tenacity with the good Baptist.

But some of the questions you are asking are basic questions which Catholics should be able to answer. Sadly, many cannot answer these questions but they are still basic questions about our Catholic faith. Infant Baptism is an example.

I suggest that rather than having a three way conversation from CAF, through you, to some guy via facebook, that you learn to answer some of these things by yourself. I don’t mean to presume that you are not doing just that but it is far better to let this one guy go and strengthen your own faith for the next ten guys rather than try to win this one at all costs and through third parites. See what I mean? In the end, strengthening your own faith is what it is all about anyway.

I live in the deep south and run up against Baptists and Evangelicals all the time. I’ve been yelled at, told that I was going to Hell, and told that my church does not teach the Bible. I’ve been tricked into “Ecumenical” events designed to pull Catholics, Methodists, Lutherans and other denominations out of their Church. I had to do just as I propose, researching many of the things you ask, in order to refute what they say. But it was God’s will that I become a better Catholic through it and that’s really the point.

I recommend the following two titles to get you started.
  • Catholicism and Fundamentalism by Karl Keating
  • Theology for Beginners by F.J. Sheed
I hope I have not come across as dismissive and really do wish you well.

-Tim-
 
Ask her if the early Church practiced infant baptism. If she says yes, ask her for proof.

If she says no…well, why is her 1500 or 2000 year old opinion better than the overall opinions of the those from the 100s to the 800s?

For this and future reference, check this site out.

biblechristiansociety.com

I know it says “Bible Christian Society” but it is from a good Catholic apologist. He has a bunch of 55 minute lectures on the Biblical basis of many subjects. You can either ask for a CD or download the mp3 file for free. He does ask for donations, but they are available for free if need-be.

One of his lectures deals with infant baptism.
 
CEAbbott said:
Hi follow CAF members,
Yes, it’s me again with yet one more crazy outburst from the Baptist on my FB page. I am about to “defriend” her now, but would like your (name removed by moderator)ut on this outrageous defense of her Baptist faith. Please read below and if anyone has ever heard of this crazy argument before and has a link I can send her,I would appreciate any help you can afford me.
Thanks again guys! Her comment is below in red. God bless!

"Where in the bible does it say to baptize non-consenting children? You don’t know scripture, you IGNORE scripture! What did Jesus tell the Pharisee Nicodemus? Let me refer you to Jesus’ words when he said in John 3:5 "VE…RILY, VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, EXCEPT A MAN BE BORN OF WATER AND OF THE SPIRIT, HE CANNOT ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN,That which is born of the FLESH…IS FLESH; and that which is BORN of the SPIRIT…IS spirit! MARVEL NOT that that I said unto thee, YE MUST BE “BORN AGAIN”!. Here, is where your “BAPTIST CHURCH” is formed.We “Born Again Baptists” can trace our roots and lineage right to Jesus and JOHN the BAPTIST! We are Baptists because we choose, of our own free will and volition ,as ADULTS, to- #1. Confess our sinful nature,-#2. Accept Jesus Christ as LORD and Savior and- #3.Submit to the COMMAND of JESUS CHRIST to be BAPTIZED BY IMMERSION (Mark 16:16)> “He that believeth and is “Baptized” SHALL BE SAVED”!!!
Click to expand...
This just means your baptist friend cannot find an answer, and so tries to steer you in a different direction. Do not oblige her. Ask her to answer your previous question first, or keep on insisting she does before you entertain another question. Or point out the obvious fact, she cannot answer that is why she is giving you this off tangent reply.

Sometimes, a good response is to call her bluff. Since she claimed she can trace the baptist faith from the Jesus and the apostles, ask her to provide you the documented proof…conclusive and verifed proof. Challenge her…most likely, she is giving you this in the hope that you do not know how to respond. Anything she claims, ask for source and proof, then and only then can you find out her source and start debunking her claims.
 
pablope said:
Sometimes, a good response is to call her bluff. Since she claimed she can trace the baptist faith from the Jesus and the apostles, ask her to provide you the documented proof…conclusive and verifed proof. Challenge her…most likely, she is giving you this in the hope that you do not know how to respond. Anything she claims, ask for source and proof, then and only then can you find out her source and start debunking her claims.
Click to expand...
Silly… don’t you know?!? The Catholic Church erased all evidence of those crazy John the Baptist-ians. Then comes the story of the “faithful remnant”.
 
pablope said:
This just means your baptist friend cannot find an answer, and so tries to steer you in a different direction. Do not oblige her. Ask her to answer your previous question first, or keep on insisting she does before you entertain another question. Or point out the obvious fact, she cannot answer that is why she is giving you this off tangent reply.

Sometimes, a good response is to call her bluff. Since she claimed she can trace the baptist faith from the Jesus and the apostles, ask her to provide you the documented proof…conclusive and verifed proof. Challenge her…most likely, she is giving you this in the hope that you do not know how to respond. Anything she claims, ask for source and proof, then and only then can you find out her source and start debunking her claims.
Click to expand...
I’m also guessing by the fact that you friend is howling like a banshee (at least that’s how I interpret typing in all caps) that you’ve challenged her faith. Her emotions are running high. I don’t think this is a bad thing. I would try to get her to answer your previous responses. I might also give her the opportunity to say “I don’t know that right now.” See if that calms her down a notch. That way with a little release valve in the pressure your comments to her will have greater impact.
 
NotWorthy said:
Silly… don’t you know?!? The Catholic Church erased all evidence of those crazy John the Baptist-ians. Then comes the story of the “faithful remnant”.
Click to expand...
:rotfl: I have heard of that…hopefully this baptist gal would find an original answer…:newidea::rotfl::bigyikes:
 
CEAbbott said:
Hi follow CAF members,
Yes, it’s me again with yet one more crazy outburst from the Baptist on my FB page. I am about to “defriend” her now, but would like your (name removed by moderator)ut on this outrageous defense of her Baptist faith. Please read below and if anyone has ever heard of this crazy argument before and has a link I can send her,I would appreciate any help you can afford me.
Thanks again guys! Her comment is below in red. God bless!

"Where in the bible does it say to baptize non-consenting children? You don’t know scripture, you IGNORE scripture! What did Jesus tell the Pharisee Nicodemus? Let me refer you to Jesus’ words when he said in John 3:5 "VE…RILY, VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, EXCEPT A MAN BE BORN OF WATER AND OF THE SPIRIT, HE CANNOT ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN,That which is born of the FLESH…IS FLESH; and that which is BORN of the SPIRIT…IS spirit! MARVEL NOT that that I said unto thee, YE MUST BE “BORN AGAIN”!. Here, is where your “BAPTIST CHURCH” is formed.We “Born Again Baptists” can trace our roots and lineage right to Jesus and JOHN the BAPTIST! We are Baptists because we choose, of our own free will and volition ,as ADULTS, to- #1. Confess our sinful nature,-#2. Accept Jesus Christ as LORD and Savior and- #3.Submit to the COMMAND of JESUS CHRIST to be BAPTIZED BY IMMERSION (Mark 16:16)> “He that believeth and is “Baptized” SHALL BE SAVED”!!!
Click to expand...
defriend her and be done. From your posts she seems to not be capable of a conversation. As I told you in your first thread, and she proves it here, she is into Landmarkism. Baptists have called it error or heresy. She is in a cult. You can not reason with her. She is not capable of reasoning at this time. All you can do is pray for her.

Now if you wan to respond, ask her why she is using Mark 16:16 as scripture. Among protestant new testament scholars, there is not concenus on the ending of Mark. Mark 16:8 is the last verse of the original gospel and 9-20 were added later, possibly the 2nd century. The oldest copies of Markan manuscripts, such as B, do not have it. Early Fathers such as Jerome question its inclusion. So her prized AV 1611 is based upon a variance of scripture. Meaning it may not even be scripture if one holds to a literal interpretation and if the earliest copies we have are indeed correct.

In Matthew 19:17 Jesus tells us “But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments” This was the answer to to “rich young ruler” who asked how he could be saved. No mention of baptism. Ask her to resolve this issue where Jesus tells us there are TWO ways to salvation. Which one did Jesus get wrong? You can ask, I doubt she will answer. Also, which commandments? Jesus only listed some of the 10 in his reply.

Since only consenting adults and children, per her narrow vision, can be saved. What of children and those adults who are mentally challenged? They are unable to confess, accept and submit. Do they go to hell? According to her group, salvation only comes through confession, acceptance and submission followed by full immersion baptism. Since scripture tells her this formula must be followed, are all baptist children and those mentally unable to follow this formula condemned to hell?

Scripture does not tell us not to baptise infants. The greek word root bapto means to wash, dip, overwhelm/immerse. Using the logic of sola scripture…where in scripture or the AV 1611 does it tell us not to baptise infants. Hint it does not. And since Anglicans wrote the AV 1611 and they did and still do baptise their children, you will not find scripture in the 1611 to tell those Anglicans then and those today not to baptise their children. The 28 BCP uses the verses she quotes (Mark) in the Anglican sacrament of Baptism for children.

I tell you this for your information. Pass it on to her. she will ignore it as she seems to have ignore all the other information we have passed on.

blessings

Mark
 
eagle_eye222001 said:
Last time you got our help and you responded, did she respond?

If she has not finished your previous debate, refuse to debate here until she finishes the previous issue. If she isn’t interested in listening or responding to the previous issue, she won’t respond to your response on this issue. Your spending hours and hours for her to glance at your response, and then just change the subject by writing a different unsubstantiated claim.

People who do not listen are not worth your time. If she continually trashes your faith and doesn’t listen and respond logically to your responses, it is time to stop casting pearls before swine and shake the dust of this “friendship.”
Click to expand...
***Hi Eagle_eye,

You are correct in that she has not directly responded to the answers I have posted back to her which I cut and paste from members on this forum, however, she did respond with the “hermeneutics” theory when I questioned her about where the Bible came from. She is responding with this belligerent response because I told her that God probably led her to the Baptist church first to get her “feet wet” as a new christian, but that the Baptist church was begun by a mere sinful man and that if she were to stay open to the Holy Spirit, He would reveal the Truth that is the Catholic Church established by Christ. As with most protestants, and new ones to their faith, she is digging in her heals. She is going so far as to invite me to her church services and to their picnics. It’s sort of creeping me out.

God bless you all for your answers here. After this, I will no longer respond to her outrageous belligerent responses.***
 
Oldtimer_7 said:
There is a group that claims to follow the teachings of John the Baptizer. They are called Mandaeans and largely live in the marshes of southern Iraq. Catholic missionaries encountering them in the 16th century referred to them as Saint John Christians. They are monotheistic and have a dualistic belief system that is gnostic. In fact they describe themselves as practicing the only Gnostic religion. I give you this information for your own edification, since I doubt your FB friend would know of the association she is claiming for herself.

If you would like to learn more about the Mandaeans, here is a link:
mandaeanunion.org/History/EN_History_001.htm
Click to expand...
***Hi Oldtimer,

Thank you much! I will cut and paste this to my response back to her.

God bless you.
Cindy***
 
kimbari said:
You should defriend this… person before she creates an occasion for you to sin against Charity (at the very least). I’m just sayin’.
Click to expand...
***Hi Kimbari,

Yes, I’m just about up to here with her and for charity sake, may need to defriend her. She is causing me alot of anger and unrest, and I’ll be off to confession this Saturday because of it.

God bless you,
Cindy ***
 
eagle_eye222001 said:
She claims you don’t know Scripture but she can’t define Scripture. Ask her what Scripture is…besides the canon given to her by the Catholic Church…didn’t we discuss this issue? How did she respond?
Click to expand...
***Hi again,

All the threads I have started have been her responses. If I missed any, I’ll let you know.

God bless you,
Cindy***
 
I dont know how long your discussions have been going, or the history between you two. But from what I have gathered from whats been posted in this thread, it seems this person has been discussing another topic, and instead answered with this. (A common tactic!).

I know how fustrating, and how heated these discussions can get. Tempers can fray, passions rise, but it’s important to remain charitable.

Remember three things: DONT PANIC, KEEP COOL, REMAIN CHARITABLE.

There is **no defeat **in saying “Can I come back to you with the answer at a later time?”, or “I would need to look into that further, may I come back to you on that?”

Remember: ONLY Discuss ONE TOPIC at a time - discussing any more will only fluster & fustrate both of you! Simply say “That’s a good point you raise there, but may we keep on topic and may I answer the first question you put to me? When I have answered that, I will be happy to answer this”

Establish ground rules, if you are discussing one topic, try to remain in that topic. The discussion of the case for infant baptism, should be like getting into water with a crocodile, lol. Once you know what the bible & what the church fathers say, you should be able to lay waste to the objections. Then that would set you up for the necessity of baptism, what it does etc.

But it’s up to them to accept it, some may not admit it to you right there and then, it may take time. Seed planters dont see instant results, and neither should we.

You should build up a wee apologetics library, here are some examples to get you started:

Books:​

Catholicism & Fundamentalism - Karl Keating
Answer Me This! - Patrick Madrid (Highly recommended, it’s arranged by topic)
Faith of our Fathers - Cardinal James Gibbons
Catholic Bible Dictionary - Scott Hahn
Ignatius Catholic Study Bible - Scott Hahn & Curtis Mitch

Websites:​

This wonderful site! (catholic.com)

Steve Ray’s Defenders of the Catholic Faith - catholic-convert.com
Scott Hahn’s St paul Centre for Biblical Theology - salvationhistory.com - The audio resources (free) are great to listen to!

I hope this helps,

I would take a break, establish a period of time between discussions, set bounderies. But i dont think, if it were me, I would defriend. I dunno, im quite stubborn that way,lol.

pray before, during & after each discussion.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top