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LDSChristian
Guest
Let me know if you want the words…
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Stephen168
New member
No, he was not a prophet. In reference to the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham, he was a liar.
The Bible is true in that it has been dated by scientists and historian to be written in the first century. The Book of Mormon has been shown by scientists to be a work of fiction written in 19th century America. It is not what Joseph Smith said it is.
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LDSChristian
Guest
Yea, he was a prophet of the Lord. So I guess you’re also going to call Abraham & the others liars as well. Same thing. So which is it, was Joseph Smith and Abraham both prophets of the Lord or were neither of them?
I gave links showing the Book of Mormon is true. If you don’t like it that’s your problem to repent for. The Bible even tells of the coming of the Book of Mormon. So now you even deny the words of the Bible. The Book of Mormon has been proven true by archeology and history. Only a follower of Satan would say it is false.
Stephen168
New member
Abraham had nothing to to do with passing the Book of Mormon off as a history book. Only Joseph Smith lied about what the Book of Mormon is.
Science has shown the Book of Mormon not to be what Joseph Smith claimed it to be. I can not say if all non-Mormon scientists are followers of Satan but I don’t think so. Have you considered going on a Mission?
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KathleenGee
Guest
Jharek,
Welcome to the world of Christianity here in the USA…we live with it all the time.
I’d say — let LDS stay.
Welcome to the world of Christianity here in the USA…we live with it all the time.
I’d say — let LDS stay.
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JeanMichel
Guest
LDSChristian, I support Jharek’s request. It is not appropriate to state such a silly thing or one that is so egregiously incorrect. There is no reason a follower of Christ should or would attack others who follow Christ. When they do in such a sensational manner as you have chosen, it is a quick sign to me that the Holy Spirit is not with you.
What is even worse, is that the Mormon church does not even say such a terrible thing. Why have you chosen to do so?
What is even worse, is that the Mormon church does not even say such a terrible thing. Why have you chosen to do so?
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ZDHayden
Guest
May I point out the obvious? It seems all the sources our LDS friend gave us were LDS sources – not one objective academic source. AND the reason the South Americans speak Latinate languages was because the Catholic Spaniards and Portuguese conquered the natives there in search for gold and wealth from 1490 to 1890. LOOOOONG after Christ was born. This is something people are taught in a basic High School Spanish class. Thank you.
In regard to the OP, it makes sense, to be honest. Smith had travelled around various Protestant denominations, trying to find one that fit him. He decided to make his own, using a synthesis of the denominations he was exposed to. Simple.
In regard to the OP, it makes sense, to be honest. Smith had travelled around various Protestant denominations, trying to find one that fit him. He decided to make his own, using a synthesis of the denominations he was exposed to. Simple.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Reading the materials this morning, the formation of Mormonism vs the development of Christianity are completely two different modes.
There are people out there, now, like Joseph Smith, who are not magicians per se, but tap into spiritual powers, can get ideas or know about events without people telling them. I had that experience come to me, and I went to our archdiocesan exorcist. He told me things he was perceiving about that person I had dealt with. He told me the person used goat horns and consult demons to get information, albeit it was misconstrued and would cause more divisions. So many years later I heard that people in the town were coming to the minister of a church complaining, saying the person was into animal sacrifice. When the police went out to the house, they couldn’t do anything because the animals were domestic – goats.
Some day the full truth will come a book out on Joseph Smith, the people involved with him, the many facets of Mormonism…
There are people out there, now, like Joseph Smith, who are not magicians per se, but tap into spiritual powers, can get ideas or know about events without people telling them. I had that experience come to me, and I went to our archdiocesan exorcist. He told me things he was perceiving about that person I had dealt with. He told me the person used goat horns and consult demons to get information, albeit it was misconstrued and would cause more divisions. So many years later I heard that people in the town were coming to the minister of a church complaining, saying the person was into animal sacrifice. When the police went out to the house, they couldn’t do anything because the animals were domestic – goats.
Some day the full truth will come a book out on Joseph Smith, the people involved with him, the many facets of Mormonism…
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Zooey
Guest
Me, too.
Now that is very interesting, & helpful information.
Thank you for sharing it.
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KathleenGee
Guest
JonC,
Thanks for your post.
Thanks for your post.
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Jerusha
Guest
Here is something on Mormon animal sacrifice from the blog of an Internet friend of mine. chriscarrollsmith.blogspot.com/2007/12/mormon-prophet-joseph-smith-viewed-pre.html
Yes, that “Baptist minister” seems to be a bit off-- Mormonish. Thank you for digging that one up, Publisher. Enochian stuff is definitely MormonoMasonic.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Animal sacrifice is used in various modern cults today.
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ParkerD
Guest
Jerusha,
Mormons do believe that the city of Enoch really happened, and that such a group of people were so righteous that they were translated and taken to a special place away from the wickedness that was on the earth at that time.
As far as “animal sacrifice”, if it is restored to allow the “sons of Levi” (meaning literal, direct descendants who would do so in righteousness to fulfill their role that was given to them in the days of Moses and would thus acknowledge the Savior and Redeemer and show that they understood the complete fulfillment of the law of sacrifice through His Redeeming blood which atoned for our sins on condition of repentance) to complete their assignment, then that seems understandable. Otherwise they did not complete that role fully, since they didn’t acknowledge Christ in performing the law of sacrifice.
When looking at the prospects for a Millennial society, with many Jews coming to know and love their Savior and Redeemer at that time, it would seem consistent with His acceptance of them to allow them to fulfill the role they had been given long before His birth, and do it in righteousness rather than in ignorance of why they were doing it. This would given them a chance to show their acceptance of the great and last sacrifice of the Son of God, who died for them also.
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Javl
Guest
I have read various issues of the BoM and even though there are passages in it taken from the Bible ( King James version, errors and all ) I cannot accept it as true.
And please keep in mind that there are many secular books in which there are biblical passages. Do you accept these the same as the BoM? Also, the Bible stands alone, it needs no support or adjunct. It’s either the Bible or nothing.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
And please keep in mind that there are many secular books in which there are biblical passages. Do you accept these the same as the BoM? Also, the Bible stands alone, it needs no support or adjunct. It’s either the Bible or nothing.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
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zaffiroborant
Guest
Would that be Uncle Dale who’s posts always look like poetry?Yeah, my co-conspirator is Dale Broadhurst, who is a rather unorthodox RLDS.
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JeanMichel
Guest
Did Smith ever explain what he meant that the sacrifices or all rites needed to be perfected? How was this perfection to be accomplished? Seems strange; little wonder that it was not discussed more often or made a central piece of the Mormon doctrine or church’s teaching.
It is odd that Mormons believe that Jesus was the great sacrifice and yet felt the ancient dispensations needed to be perfected. I would have thought they were all perfected through Jesus? I am curious to hear your thoughts. This appears to be some pretty deep water.
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ParkerD
Guest
JeanMichel,
I see two different types of questions you seem to be asking–one specifically about a restoration of sacrifices (of animals such as a lamb), and the other about “ancient dispensations needed to be perfected”.
Here are the verses in Acts 3 that are pertinent to this subject:
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Here are two other verses that refer to Bible prophecies that are also pertinent:
Doctrine and Covenants 128:15
And now, my dearly beloved brethren and sisters, let me assure you that these are principles in relation to the dead and the living that cannot be lightly passed over, as pertaining to our salvation. For their salvation is necessary and essential to our salvation, as Paul says concerning the fathers—that they without us cannot be made perfect—neither can we without our dead be made perfect.
Doctrine and Covenants 128:18
I might have rendered a plainer translation to this, but it is sufficiently plain to suit my purpose as it stands. It is sufficient to know, in this case, that the earth will be smitten with a curse unless there is a welding link of some kind or other between the fathers and the children, upon some subject or other—and behold what is that subject? It is the baptism for the dead. For we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect. Neither can they nor we be made perfect without those who have died in the gospel also; for it is necessary in the ushering in of the dispensation of the fulness of times, which dispensation is now beginning to usher in, that a whole and complete and perfect union, and welding together of dispensations, and keys, and powers, and glories should take place, and be revealed from the days of Adam even to the present time. And not only this, but those things which never have been revealed from the foundation of the world, but have been kept hid from the wise and prudent, shall be revealed unto babes and sucklings in this, the dispensation of the fulness of times.
You are right that these kinds of topics are “some pretty deep water.”
One would rightly say that all dispensations are going to be perfected through Jesus, but I don’t view that as a past event–I view it as a future event since there is so much yet to be accomplished on the earth relative to the Jews accepting Christ as their Savior, relative to the tribe of Ephraim and the ten tribes and the tribes of Judah and Benjamin (the descendants of the southern kingdom) coming together in unity with one King to lead them (their real King David whom they didn’t recognize), and relative to the restoring of the city of Enoch to the earth, as well as other facets of the “restitution of all things”.
Joseph Smith believed those words “restitution of all things” will have a coming total literal fulfillment, as noted in D & C 128:18. So a time of restitution of the law of sacrifice would be a part of that, but as I had noted it would seem to me that such a restitution would be primarily to allow the sons of Levi to offer an acceptable sacrifice (probably in a temple) and show that they were accepting Christ as the “great and last sacrifice” when they do that in His name and for His glory.
I will research when I have the time and see if Joseph Smith taught in more detail about these topics. I hope this has helped a little bit, but I know it doesn’t go into the depth you probably had in mind.
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KathleenGee
Guest
JonC
The problem with translations is that the same words have different meanings and uses.
I have a friend who is Italian and has his own webpage coming out of his parish. It includes his Catholic province. I got a Google Translator and it is improving all the time since I first used it.
But I read common English words being translated but have to sit and think what are they saying in this…especially when these reflections are coming out of Sacred Scripture. There are nuances drawn from daily life. I know for a fact that telling jokes in foreign language with some one else usually draws a blank…what helps is acting it out.
The Italians were big fans of the Three Stooges, Laurel and Hardy, and the Marx Brothers…and they acted out alot of the humor.
Well, of course Sacred Scripture is totally different…because it is drawing on the spirit of God, and there is the oral intent of Christ’s teachings, the theology behind His death and resurrection, as well as the entire context of Salvation History.
The Catholic perspective on Scripture is that we look at it from its whole context…and the continuity of the Peoples of God from the Old Testament into the New Testament, and from there the ongoing realization of the presence of God and our relationship with Him in the Church down through time.
I have participated in church movements over a period of time. These movements bring reflections in our daily homilies at Mass that help us see the fruit of such movements. But in time they fulfill their use, and when they are no longer relevant to our given situation in time, they are discarded. And it is in this time when movements are waning that people need to step back and reflect on more personal prayer.
What is good in daily Mass all the time is the continual draw on the apostolic faith. I have seen enough things come and go, and what helps me alot is the perspective of my pastor. He is also older and has been through the gamut of being in the Church with alot of change in the world. Our world has changed so much in the past 60 years and it is so easy to lose sight of the apostolic faith in every day life…
Living in the apostolic life is always keeping one’s self at the center of faith, of being in the place of the Church we should all aim for like St. Therese the Little Flower…she founder her place in the Church and it was in the heart of the Church, and it is LOVE.
So our common Christian duty for those of us who remain in organized religion is to continue to seek the truth of Christ and our faith, and to seek common unity of faith in love. And that can only be facilitated by accurate and faithful translation of the Word of God.
The problem with translations is that the same words have different meanings and uses.
I have a friend who is Italian and has his own webpage coming out of his parish. It includes his Catholic province. I got a Google Translator and it is improving all the time since I first used it.
But I read common English words being translated but have to sit and think what are they saying in this…especially when these reflections are coming out of Sacred Scripture. There are nuances drawn from daily life. I know for a fact that telling jokes in foreign language with some one else usually draws a blank…what helps is acting it out.
The Italians were big fans of the Three Stooges, Laurel and Hardy, and the Marx Brothers…and they acted out alot of the humor.
Well, of course Sacred Scripture is totally different…because it is drawing on the spirit of God, and there is the oral intent of Christ’s teachings, the theology behind His death and resurrection, as well as the entire context of Salvation History.
The Catholic perspective on Scripture is that we look at it from its whole context…and the continuity of the Peoples of God from the Old Testament into the New Testament, and from there the ongoing realization of the presence of God and our relationship with Him in the Church down through time.
I have participated in church movements over a period of time. These movements bring reflections in our daily homilies at Mass that help us see the fruit of such movements. But in time they fulfill their use, and when they are no longer relevant to our given situation in time, they are discarded. And it is in this time when movements are waning that people need to step back and reflect on more personal prayer.
What is good in daily Mass all the time is the continual draw on the apostolic faith. I have seen enough things come and go, and what helps me alot is the perspective of my pastor. He is also older and has been through the gamut of being in the Church with alot of change in the world. Our world has changed so much in the past 60 years and it is so easy to lose sight of the apostolic faith in every day life…
Living in the apostolic life is always keeping one’s self at the center of faith, of being in the place of the Church we should all aim for like St. Therese the Little Flower…she founder her place in the Church and it was in the heart of the Church, and it is LOVE.
So our common Christian duty for those of us who remain in organized religion is to continue to seek the truth of Christ and our faith, and to seek common unity of faith in love. And that can only be facilitated by accurate and faithful translation of the Word of God.
P
ParkerD
Guest
JeanMichel,
I looked at Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith and did not find other references than had already been shown on the earlier link, so I don’t have much to add to what I already responded to your thoughtful questions above.
Joseph Smith referred to the passage found in Malachi 3:3 in teaching that the sons of Levi would need to be purified and to “offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness” which would happen after the Second Coming of Christ as prophesied in Malachi 3:1, 2.
I appreciate your thoughtful questions, and your involvement as you have shown genuine charity in your dealings and encouragement. Thanks.
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