Baptist questions on Catholicism

[kalt]

To all Baptists - Since your board doesn’t allow genuine Catholic responses to questions about Catholicism, how about asking your questions here?

Pick one topic and tell us what you think the CC teaches about it. I’m sure you would prefer to know what the CC teaches to merely thinking you know what the CC teaches, so we’ll help you clear up any misunderstandings and, of course, let you know when you’ve got it right.

We realize that you won’t agree with us, but if you get the story straight here, which you can’t do on your own site, you will be able to make educated comments about Catholicism on your own board.

This board is here to discuss religions together. It’s not for personal attacks–in fact they’re not tolerated–so if you ask something or make a comment we will provide you with the facts. A few posters here have questioned another poster’s religion, but that is against the rules, and those posts are deleted or the poster is banned. So, you won’t find people (not Catholics, anyway) here who will question whether you are truly a Christian or will speculate on whether you will end up in Heaven or Hell.

Discussions can get heated, but they are almost always heated discussions about a debate point (Mary’s perpetual virginity, for example) and not about the posters’ state of grace.

We have tried several times to get Protestants to explain OSAS to us so that it makes logical/biblical sense, but no one has been able to do it. So, if those of you who are new here have the time and the desire to take up that topic, I would be very happy to read what you have to say. Maybe start a new thread for that one, though.

 

[kalt]

Did the Baptists take the weekend off?

I was hoping that the new Baptists here would engage in real discussions about their take on Catholicism.

 

[Lapey]

To all Baptists - Since your board doesn’t allow genuine Catholic responses to questions about Catholicism, how about asking your questions here?

Pick one topic and tell us what you think the CC teaches about it. I’m sure you would prefer to know what the CC teaches to merely thinking you know what the CC teaches, so we’ll help you clear up any misunderstandings and, of course, let you know when you’ve got it right.

We realize that you won’t agree with us, but if you get the story straight here, which you can’t do on your own site, you will be able to make educated comments about Catholicism on your own board.

This board is here to discuss religions together. It’s not for personal attacks–in fact they’re not tolerated–so if you ask something or make a comment we will provide you with the facts. A few posters here have questioned another poster’s religion, but that is against the rules, and those posts are deleted or the poster is banned. So, you won’t find people (not Catholics, anyway) here who will question whether you are truly a Christian or will speculate on whether you will end up in Heaven or Hell.

Discussions can get heated, but they are almost always heated discussions about a debate point (Mary’s perpetual virginity, for example) and not about the posters’ state of grace.

We have tried several times to get Protestants to explain OSAS to us so that it makes logical/biblical sense, but no one has been able to do it. So, if those of you who are new here have the time and the desire to take up that topic, I would be very happy to read what you have to say. Maybe start a new thread for that one, though.

Which site do you visit?

 

[teadough]

Maybe you should give your own personal definition of what a Baptist is because it would be too easy to generalize the term depending on where you live.

thanks, T

 

[teadough]

So, you won’t find people (not Catholics, anyway) here who will question whether you are truly a Christian or will speculate on whether you will end up in Heaven or Hell.

.

Hi, are you new here or something? I have had Catholics on this site tell me likewise and seen it done to many people even though there are plenty of charitable people on this site. There tons of know-it-all Catholics on this board who seem to think they know whats best for other whether their intentions are good or not. But comparing this site to a place like CARM(if you have not been there you need to give it a shot)you are on par:thumbsup:

 

[Zenas]

Did the Baptists take the weekend off?

I was hoping that the new Baptists here would engage in real discussions about their take on Catholicism.

All right, I have a question. Matthew 23:9 says:

And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

So why do Catholics refer to their priests as father?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

All right, I have a question. Matthew 23:9 says: So why do Catholics refer to their priests as father?

Gee that’s a good question.

What you do call your male parent?

If you say, “father, but he actually IS my biological parent”. . you’re still ignoring Matthew, aren’t you? Because Matthew says, "Call no man father’.

If you call your male parent father, then you are flouting Matthew as well. Because Matthew doesn’t say, “Call no man father except your own parent”.

So. . .if you allow one exception (that 'but he IS my biological parent, and Matthew couldn’t have meant that I can’t call my own father father"), then you have opened the door to other exceptions.

Also, can you tell me why St. Paul referred to himself as a father, both specifically to Timothy, and also to the readers/hearers of his epistles? St. Paul was not father to, say, the members of the Church at Corinth, yet he refers to himself as such.

Finally, Jesus, in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, himself refers to “Father Abraham”. If we are to call no one our father, why did Jesus have the rich man refer to Abraham not as ‘Abraham’ but as FATHER Abraham?

 

[Zenas]

Good points, Tantum, but you didn’t really answer my question. While you’re pondering your answer, I will ask my question another way. What did Jesus mean when he said, “Call no man your father upon the earth”?

 

[Third_Day]

Good points, Tantum, but you didn’t really answer my question. While you’re pondering your answer, I will ask my question another way. What did Jesus mean when he said, “Call no man your father upon the earth”?

Jesus meant not to call anyone on earth your “heavenly father” for there is only one heavenly Father. Jesus is simply restating the first commandment"thou shalt not have any other gods besides me"

Do a word search in the New Testament and you will see that the word “father” is used 124 times. It is used by Paul, Stephen and others. If it was forbidden then these saintly men would have been condemned by the other apostles.

 

[Zenas]

Jesus meant not to call anyone on earth your “heavenly father” for there is only one heavenly Father. Jesus is simply restating the first commandment"thou shalt not have any other gods besides me"

Good answer. Does anyone have any other ideas?

Here is my second question. In the scene of Heavenly worship depicted in Revelation 4 and 5, Mary, Queen of Heaven, is completely absent. Wouldn’t you think such a prominent citizen of Heaven would be mentioned here?

 

[EmergencyOps]

To all Baptists … how about asking your questions here?

Pick one topic and tell us what you think the CC teaches about it. I’m sure you would prefer to know what the CC teaches to merely thinking you know what the CC teaches, so we’ll help you clear up any misunderstandings and, of course, let you know when you’ve got it right.

Thanks for providing this opportunity, even if your first sentence assumes that we all subscribe to uncharitable Baptist forums.

I have two related questions:

Why are infants baptized? And why is pouring used instead of immersion?

The student minister at my former church had mentioned the original Greek word was baptizo…to immerse, submerge. Christ wasn’t baptized as an infant, but instead as an adult. From what I understand, the CC teaches that infants must be baptized or else their original sin will count against them in the event of their death. If not baptized, they may end up in pergatory or worse. On this topic, I was really taken back by the priest that married us; I mentioned how I desired that the kids be raised in both churches (baptized as infants in hers) and when the child is old enough they can make their decision…possibly being baptized as a public profession in my faith. The priest was concerned and believed that it would be hard for the child to make that choice without there being any influence from me. I thought to myself…and the child has free choice when it comes to Catholic infant baptism?!?

 

[Jean_1958]

I like THIS thread.

Why are infants baptized?

We baptize infants to eseentially welcome them into the fold as Christians. We welcome them as sons and daughters of God.

Additionally, Christ did not restrict Baptism to just adults. In Acts 2:30 Peter tells us what happens at Baptism. It’s in Acts 2:39 that Jesus adds, “For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.” Given this, we can then see how the act of Baptism is for everyone, not just adults.

It is also important to understand that in Jesus’ time whole households were Baptistized. Many of these whole households actually included children.

I know on the Protestant side of it Baptism usually occurs to older children and adults who have undergone an actual converstion thus merlely making it a public manifestation of the person’s conversion.

The difference between Catholics and Protestants is that Baptism is a sacrament for us whereas it is an ordinace for Protestants.

And why is pouring used instead of immersion?

There are some Catholic churches that DO whole immersion, but sprinkling is more than enough, as it is more about the symbolism.

Baptism is Baptism whether someone is sprinkled, poured over, or immersed.

 

[EmergencyOps]

Additionally, Christ did not restrict Baptism to just adults. In Acts 2:30 Peter tells us what happens at Baptism. It’s in ACts 2:39 that Jesus adds, “For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.” Given this, we can then see how the act of Baptism is for everyone, not just adults.

Acts 2:30 reads: “30But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne.”
Acts 2:38-39 reads: "38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” Did Jesus or Peter say verse 39?

Baptism is Baptism whether someone is sprinkled, poured over, or immersed.

I did additional reading:

**Ezekiel prophesied that this baptism would come: “I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. A new heart I will give you, and a new Spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and be careful to observe My ordinances,” (Ezekiel 36:25-27).

Bible-believers can take into consideration Ezekiel’s teaching on the cleansing power of Baptism and his use of the word “sprinkle.” Better yet, [Protestants] might agree that Baptism is cleansing with water, an outward sign that signifies an interior reality. If so, then they can agree that sprinkling is sufficient (although, like [a Protestant], the Church prefers the better sign value of immersion (or pouring; cf. Canon 854).**
-Catholic Exchange

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I know this is non-scriptural, but it shows infant baptism was practiced in the very early years of the Church.

**Archeological discoveries in the Roman catacombs have long-ago proven that infant baptism was common in the primitive Roman Churches. Two clear examples, among dozens of similar inscriptions, are all that we really need to support this claim. A man with the resounding Roman/Latin name of Murtius Verinus placed on the tomb of his children the inscription: “Verina received Baptism at the age of ten months, Florina at the age of twelve months.” The date of this tomb has been firmly established by radio-carbon dating of the children’s bones as being 105 AD +/- 4 years. Another tomb, not far away from this one, has the inscription: “Here rests Achillia, a newly-baptized infant; she was one year and five months old, died February 23rd…” and then follows the year of the reigning emperor, which dates her death to 91 AD. [see W. Wall, “History of Infant Baptism”, 2 Vols., London, 1900. and other related articles in various archeological journals from early this century.] **

 

[Jean_1958]

Acts 2:30 reads: “30But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne.”
Acts 2:38-39 reads: "38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” Did Jesus or Peter say verse 39?

Forgive me, I meant Acts 2:38, not Acts 2:30. In Acts 2:38 Peter tells us what happens.

And I was quite clear it was Jesus speaking in Acts 2:39.

 

[Jean_1958]

EmergencyOps:

I know there have been a lot controversies in the past over Baptism. Some have left and do leave because they believe the only way is by immersion.

The old *Rituale Romanum *allows for all 3 methods (sprinkling, pouring over, and immersion).

In the 1973 document on Christian initiation from the Sacred Congregation on Divine Worship it states that “either the rite of immersion or the rite of infusion may lawfully be used in the celebration of Baptism.”

As I said, there are Catholic churches were they DO do imersion, however, not too many churches in the North America and Europe are fitted for Baptism by immersion, which is why they sprinkle or pour over as opposed to doing whole immersion.

As I said, Baptism is Baptism no matter HOW it is done. The more important things to a Baptism are the words and the water. which has never lost its force as a symbol of regeneration.

 

[EmergencyOps]

And I was quite clear it was Jesus speaking in Acts 2:39.

Verse 39 appears to be a continuation of Peter speaking from verse 38. It’s been a while since I checked what books of the Bible have Christ’s words, so I could be wrong and it was Jesus speaking in verse 39.

Thanks for the excellent answers, everyone. I can really see how it would be hard for a Protestant to explain away what Peter said.

 

[adstrinity]

In the Old Testament, God made a covenant with His people to circumsize males 8 days after birth or when they convert. New Testament covenant replaces that and so we baptize. Also, we do not sprinkle. The water must be free-flowing. If you search “Ask the Apologist”, this has been covered.

 

[ricko]

Baptism is the Christian equivalent of circumcision, or “the circumcision of Christ”: “In him you were also circumcised with . . . the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead” (Col. 2:11–12). Thus, like circumcision, baptism can be given to children as well as adults. The difference is that circumcision was powerless to save (Gal. 5:6, 6:15), but "aptism . . . now saves you" (1 Pet. 3:21).

 

[EmergencyOps]

In the Old Testament, God made a covenant with His people to circumsize males 8 days after birth or when they convert. New Testament covenant replaces that and so we baptize. Also, we do not sprinkle. The water must be free-flowing. If you search “Ask the Apologist”, this has been covered.

You are correct, it was covered by Michelle Arnold, a Catholic Answers Apologist:

"Because the minister of baptism must be able to sprinkle, pour, or immerse the baby in water for the baptism to be valid."

It seems that we all learn something new every day here at CAF. The OP’s intention for this thread has been successful in your case:

I’m sure you would prefer to know what the CC teaches to merely thinking you know what the CC teaches, so we’ll help you clear up any misunderstandings and, of course, let you know when you’ve got it right.