Baptist Seeking Answers

[mattwilliams]

Welcome. I spent several years among baptists and I understand where you are coming from. I was received this Easter into the Church

The reason we insist this is metaphor is it makes no sense to us otherwise. Understanding this as metaphor, as a symbol, is easy. Understanding this in the Catholic manner is hard.

If you confess the Nicene creed at mass with your wife you say the following words, in the current translation “consubstantial with the father”. This word can be understood as “of the same substance” with the father. This is the key. Christ looked like a man, sweated like a man, bled like a man, if you touched him he felt like a man. He was fully God and fully man, his substance ( focus on that word ) was the same as God, he was God.

Now consider communion. The physical attributes of the bread and wine remain, they tasted like bread and wine, smell like bread and wine, etc. But the substance, the reality is said to be changed. How does the divine and the material interact in the eucharist ? I will explain that to you after you first explain to me how the divine and the material interacted to create the Christ …

Point being whether you agree with it or not hopefully you can at least catch a glimmer of what is being said. “substance” “consubstance” “transubstance”.

For me what pushed me over the hump was John 6. This chapter starts with the feeding of the 5000, continues that night with the walking on the water, and the next day on the other side continues with the discussion from the previous day. Christ says things like “unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you.” etc.

Was it literal or was it figurative ?

The last part answers that. It was those who found his literal teaching to hard to accept that fell away.

To your Peter point. The order of the names of the disciples varies from gospel to gospel with two exceptions. Judas is always listed last. Why ? Naturally because he betrayed the Christ. Peter is always listed first. Why ? Because even at the time of the writing of the Gospels it was understood he had a place of leadership.

Hope I helped a little.

Wonderful words… and yes, it does help. My problem is certainly not the belief… I am trying to understand the mindset of the average Catholic. The SUBSTANCE of the Eucharist I cannot deny. Is it more than a symbol to me, as a Baptist? Certainly. It’s more than staring at a painting or reading words on a page. I think I understand, reading what you have read, how a new Catholic might feel about the Eucharist. Truly, you are not actually drinking LITERAL blood or eating LITERAL flesh… or are you? Perhaps the former is true in our earthly realm, but I am going off of texture and taste. What is taste, but something human that we have to measure something… by human standards? Could something have TRANS-substantiated, and caused us to partake differently in the spiritual realm?

I will give John 6 another read, as it seemed to be a tipping point for you.

I am not new, spiritually, to the Lord. But, I am trying to reconcile my understanding of the Gospel with those of my lovely wife and those of the lovely Catholic church, and hearing from those within the Catholic church have been wonderfully insightful, so thank you for your response.

 

[Abu]

Mattwilliams #41
you are not actually drinking LITERAL blood or eating LITERAL flesh… or are you?

We are receiving **Christ whole and entire **in the way He has mandated, appearing essentially by His power as Bread and Wine, as He has given Himself to us in this Blessed Sacrament.
This site has a deep discussion of the transformation effected by Christ defined as Transubstantiation.

This is the summation:
“When, therefore, He Who is All Truth and All Power said of the bread: “This is my body”, the bread became, through the utterance of these words, the Body of Christ; consequently, on the completion of the sentence the substance of bread was no longer present, but the Body of Christ under the outward appearance of bread. Hence the bread must have become the Body of Christ, i.e. the former must have been converted into the latter. The words of Institution were at the same time the words of Transubstantiation. Indeed the actual manner in which the absence of the bread and the presence of the Body of Christ is effected, is not read into the words of Institution but strictly and exegetically deduced from them.”
newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm

May God bless you and reward you richly for your earnest search.

 

[pnewton]

Truly, you are not actually drinking LITERAL blood or eating LITERAL flesh… or are you?

What defines the substance of a thing? Can not the one who could create with a word with a word change the substance of a thing without changing the appearance? Let me give you an example that you might understand. No doubt you already believe in the divinity of Jesus. Not just that part of him was divine, but that he was totally and completely God. His substance was that of God. Yet he appeared in the flesh and even took on that flesh. Yet he remained totally God. Now if the One who is infinite could take that his substance and place it in the flesh of man, doing the same with bread is a small step in comparison. Just like we believe that Jesus was completely and substantially God, we also believe the same of the Eucharist.

 

[kentcara2003]

Dear MattWilliams,

All the many replies Ive read here are like so many pointers to Him whom you seek. He is truly Risen.Alleluia! The direction and queries you are making, I feel is truly guided by the Holy Spirit as far as I can perceive for.... "The Holy Eucharist is the goal and the summit of the Christian life." Quote- Im not sure if it is ad verbatim, by several Popes including the Bl Pope John Paul 2., have used it. IT TRULY SUMS UP THE ESSENCE AND LIFE OF THE CATHOLIC FAITH. If you dont appreciate this, you will never get through the “APPARENT DEVIANT TRUTHS” of the Faith.

This gift is so mind boggling…so generous and so unimaginable… if it is true, don`t you think? It will and must eventually melt all your difficulties and doubts and inspire you to great efforts at sanctity if you are to grow to match this extraordinary gift. Only A God of Infinite Love who can come up with a gift so generous and so worthy of the Love we see in Christ Jesus…who gives himself generously and fully as God and Man to the King as to a pauper in the street, to a genius as to a simple man, to those who are good even as to those who are evil, though without his saving graces…

I’ve been a catholic all my life, 50 years of it. Since my youth it has captured my imagination, fuelled my efforts at self mastery, called me to generosity and plunged me into the depths of sorrow for my failings…And after 50 years it still quickens my spirit whenever I am before Him in the Prayer Room. …

Kenneth, I tell myself, you deserve “hell and all its torments for all eternity” (Lenten hymn)
yet you are here in the presence of the All Holy, All Wise ,All Powerful and Infinite Beauty, are you not BLESSED BEYOND ALL MEASURE?
Do you not perceive His impenetrable gaze upon you, your loved ones and all here present? Are you not bathed in His Glory as at Mt Tabor? Are not His healing rays penetrating you inner most being and renewing your youth like an eagle’s? Are you not building yourself treasure for Heaven, decrease your Pugatory and lessening the holds of your weakness and failings, merely by being in His Presence amidst the multitude of angels in whose presence you are graced with?HUMBLE, HUMBLE , HUMBLE AND ABASE YOURSELF TO THE DUST FOR YOUR GOD REIGNS IN SO HUMBLE A FORM. FOR LOVE OF YOU AND ALL.

“Be still, and know that I am God, supreme among the nations, supreme on the earth.”(Psalm)

One of my heroes of the Holy Eucharist is St Charbel Markhouf and he spent hours (many hours before and many hours after His Eucharistic celebration at 11am) in adoration of Our Blessed Lord.
If he were wrong , he wasted the last 10 years or more of his life worshipping a piece of bread.!! But God has other plans…for 2 MONTHS AFTER HIS DEATH, LIGHT WAS COMING FORTH FROM HIS GRAVE. It was such a phenomenon that the Bishop had to order the excavation of his grave, and his INCORRUPTED BODY WAS FOUND FLOATING ON WATER…the innumerable miracles that was effected from pieces of cloth soaked in oil that came from his coffin when it was lying in state was a testament of God’s pleasure of His servant. Many great saints of the catholic church, like St Margaret Mary, St Bernedette, St John Vianney are also lovers of the Eucharist and are ALSO INCORRUPT.

Of course, the Church doesnt take merely the Incorruption of the Body as an extraordinary sign of a person’s holiness but together with the heroic virtues they practised as real testimony of God good pleasure.

May Our Lord draw you to Himself and fill you with a most profound desire to taste the Bread of Angels, and may these verses of the Psalms find a home in your heart…

"O God , you are my God, for you I long,
for you my soul is thirsting,
my body pines for you like a dry weary land without water,
so I gaze on you in the sanctuary, to see your strength and your glory.

One day within your courts, is better than a thousand elsewhere,
the treshold of the house of God I prefer to the dwellings of the wicked.

Blessed are those whom you chose and call
to dwell in your courts forever singing your praise.

I love you Lord, my strength, my rock, my fortress, my saviour,
My God is the rock where I take refuge, my shield, my mighty help, my stronghold.

Look towards Him and be radiant and let your faces not be abashed,
this poor man called and the Lord heard him and saved him from all his distress.

After all these years I dont feel Jesus in the Eucharist, or sense his presence, or even get ANYTHING FROM BEING IN HIS PRESENCE in the ordinary sense of the word…but deep in my heart I yearn to be in His presence and WASTE my life in adoration of an “apparent piece of Bread.”!!!Go figure!!! Maybe it is but a little glimpse of the faith of Mother Teresa who didnt feel Jesus for many years and yet remained faithful and true to Him in her daily communion and hour adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. The depths of which is beyond our imagination as she is the Bride of Christ as a religious and also as one who has attained most surely to the highest degrees of mystical Love.

I am struggling to become a better manager of my time and hope ardently for His Mercy that in time I may be graced to truly spend A MORE REASONALBLE amount of my time with Him who is the “source of all good for all Mankind.”…for the sake of Mankind. May our Faith lead us to Him who alone can satisfy the yearnings of the human spirit!! and the redemption and salvation of All. I desire this for myself as I desire this for all my brothers and sisters of the Faith who have so efficaciously informed you of the FAITH, and all who yearn for Him, Who is THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE. Please remember us in your prayers as we remember you in ours.

God bless
Kentcara2003(3rd order SSCC)

 

[Goya]

Greetings, fellow believers. I am a Baptist, married to a Catholic, who is seriously considering converting to Catholicism. I feel all Christians are one under the Lord and are all saved by His grace. With my wife, I am a regular attendee of a Catholic parish. RCIA does not begin for several months, though, and*** I am trying to begin reconciling some serious scripture interpretation differences between my current branch of Christianity and Catholicism***.

Let me preface this all by saying that Baptists are what you would consider “sola scriptura,” and “soli Deo gloria,” that is to say we live by the scripture alone (no extra-Biblical documents, save the Dead Sea Scrolls), and believe that only God may grant forgiveness of sins.

…

Hello Matt:

Long story short: I was prompted to look into my own Catholicism, by Evangelicals–I asked them to show me where/how Catholicsm is wrong. The answers that came back, invariably rested upon sola scriptura–then elaborated from there…

…so I kept asking “wait, back up–how did we get to sola scriptura?” No answer ever sufficed. None even came close. I simply couldn’t get past sola scriptura. Actually, couldn’t even get there. There is simply no biblical/scriptural basis for it. It is itself, in fact, the very ‘tradition of men’, which so many protestants condemn Catholicism for.

My point isn’t to attack your current basis for your faith–rather to point out that rather than trying to reconcile Catholicism with sola scriptura–I’d suggest asking "why sola scriptura in the first place?" Sola Scriptura diverted from Catholic Christianity–Christianity didn’t divert from SS.

Hence your inquiry may be frustrated, if you are beginning with a flawed premise (i.e.–that sola scriptura is controlling). Perhaps you would be better served by approaching your inquiry, from a direction consistent with history–not from the reverse.

This is the path taken by two famous converts–Mark Shea, and David Currie (both former evangelicals who converted to Catholicism). Shea wrote a book called “By What Authority” in which he explains his journey; and Currie wrote one called “Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic”, in which he does the same. Both or either of these books would proablaby be best suited to address your concerns.

One other author, although not originally Evangelical–rather, he was Reformed Calvinist (and staunchly anti-Catholic)–is Scott Hahn. He is a very compelling author, but his vantage point may not resonate with you, as well as the two I mentioned above. Though if you want to read his story, his book, is called “Rome Sweet Rome”.

Caveat: I may be mistaken in my suppositions here, but it is my understanding that Baptists are more closely alligned with Evangelicalism/Fundamentalism, than with Reformed Calvinism.

 

[pablope]

Well…before we answer this question…maybe you should tell us where do you think souls go to after earthly death? What happens?

More later…have to run.

 

[mattwilliams]

Lots of stuff to chew on! Thanks everybody for all the responses. I’ll start diving into the material that most of you have presented. Lots a prayer and meditation will be required, but I’m confident that God will give me direction.

 

[pablope]

Hello Matt:

My point isn’t to attack your current basis for your faith–rather to point out that rather than trying to reconcile Catholicism with sola scriptura–I’d suggest asking "why sola scriptura in the first place?" Sola Scriptura diverted from Catholic Christianity–Christianity didn’t divert from SS.

Hence your inquiry may be frustrated, if you are beginning with a flawed premise (i.e.–that sola scriptura is controlling). Perhaps you would be better served by approaching your inquiry, from a direction consistent with history–not from the reverse.

One other author, although not originally Evangelical–rather, he was Reformed Calvinist (and staunchly anti-Catholic)–is Scott Hahn. He is a very compelling author, but his vantage point may not resonate with you, as well as the two I mentioned above. Though if you want to read his story, his book, is called “Rome Sweet Rome”.

Caveat: I may be mistaken in my suppositions here, but it is my understanding that Baptists are more closely alligned with Evangelicalism/Fundamentalism, than with Reformed Calvinism.

Recalling Scott Hahn’s story, a question posed to him is “where is SS in the Bible?” that got him stumped, as he never asked the question himself in the first place.

That started him searching for where is Sola Scriptura in the Bible?

Matt…I would like to share this story of a missionary couple to you…who grappled with SS also…freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1858224/posts
How I Solved the Catholic Problem (in 3 parts)
Envoy Magazine ^ | Kristine L. Franklin

 

[pablope]

Lots of stuff to chew on! Thanks everybody for all the responses. I’ll start diving into the material that most of you have presented. Lots a prayer and meditation will be required, but I’m confident that God will give me direction.

God will certainly give you directions.

When you are ready for more…we have a lot more to offer you…

 

[Philthy]

… "… John 6… could be, however, metaphorical, with little evidence to the contrary.

Hi Matt! :tiphat:

I’m sorry to inform you that you have not supported this position in the slightest! Here is a brief summary of the logical, Scriptural reasons why John 6 was not metaphorical:

• The language used is not metaphorical - especially the progressively literal “gnawing” language
• Those who heard him speaking interpreted him literally
• Christ claims that one’s salvation hinges upon his message and yet He does not correct or explain himself. If He was speaking metaphorically and did so poorly enough that not one person understood him, then he is responsible for misleading them. If he was speaking literally however, this issue resolves itself.
• His language ties in to the Last Supper where He clarifies the “eat my flesh” language by explaining that the New Passover bread and wine “is” His flesh and blood.
• Paul reiterates this literalistic language in his letter to the Corinthians “guilty of the body and blood of the Lord”
• Christ is “made known” to the disciples in the breaking of the bread in Acts
• A reliable (martyr for the faith) first generation disciple of John, the author of John 6 (St Ignatius of Antioch) describes the Eucharist as the “flesh of our Lord which suffered for our sins and which God raised up…”
• Many other ECFs use this exact language - the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ
• No one for the first 1500 years of the faith - except heretics such as the gnostics - denies the teaching.

And what, exactly, are the opposing arguments and evidence, Matt??

• Some find it difficult to understand and therefore difficult to believe
• It contradicts the theology of sola fide

If I’m missing anything Scripturally or logically with your end or the argument, let me know, but from where I’m standing the “symbolic only” folks are the ones who have almost nothing to base their position on. And so your claim that with respect to the metaphorical opinion of John 6 that there is “little evidence to the contrary” is simply inaccurate. There is far more evidence for the literal interpretation and almost nothing for the “symbolic only” interpretation.

More succinctly, what I am looking for is Catholic doctrine to be scripturally-backed. To say that something is the “way that it is” because several men gathered in a room and decided that it was so is not necessarily acceptable to me… because WHO ARE WE to interpret the nature and intention of God?

Who are we? We are those whom God entrusted his revelation to. It is exclusively through man that God reveals himself to us. God does not wave a wand in Heaven to reveal truth and save people. He works through humanity. This is a mega theme of the NT. He became human and he built a church of humans and left to them the task of building his Church on earth. We are the ones He loves and the ones he allows to participate in His life. That’s who we are. Who did you think we were?

 

[Church_Militant]

Hang in there Matt! Believe me; there are good answers for your every concern. PM me if you need to.

 

[MariaG]

Lots of stuff to chew on! Thanks everybody for all the responses. I’ll start diving into the material that most of you have presented. Lots a prayer and meditation will be required, but I’m confident that God will give me direction.

Amen! The Lord will certainly give you direction.

As you have already found, Catholic beliefs can be seen in scripture, but it is a matter of how that scripture is interpreted.

And although I know it probably is not yet time for you to delve into it, Catholic interpretation of scripture can be seen in the writings of the early church fathers.

 

[snarflemike]

Lots of stuff to chew on! Thanks everybody for all the responses. I’ll start diving into the material that most of you have presented. Lots a prayer and meditation will be required, but I’m confident that God will give me direction.

Matt, first let me honor you for your sincere and charitable interaction here. It is a model for us all.

There are a couple of things I’d like to throw in at this late date, FWIW.

First, I want to emphasize something that has been touched upon in some other posts, about metaphors. When Jesus said he was the gate and we were the sheep, we know that we are not literally sheep. When he said he was the vine and we the branches, we know that we are not literally branches. When he said he was the living water, we know that we do not have literal springs of water welling up within us. And so it goes. But there is no such metaphor identifier in John 6.

Second, what is the more suitable memorial to Jesus Christ, God Incarnate, our Savior? A tiny bit of bread and a sip of wine (or juice), or Himself? Isn’t God the only truly fitting memorial to God? Let’s be honest, a bit of bread and a sip of wine are hardly a fitting memorial meal for anybody, much less God.

Next, Jesus Christ is now and forever both fully God and fully Man. So for him to come fully to us, he must come in bodily form. This is exactly what he does in the Eucharist - he comes to us fully, in his humanity as well as in his divinity.

Back to John 6, if the “hard saying” was just that we had to have faith, then why did so many (thousands) walk away at that point, but nobody ever walked away at any other point in the New Testament when the necessity of faith was presented?

And how could the entire Church, both east and west (for the Eastern Orthodox also believe in the real presence, not in a symbolic presence) gotten this key doctrine wrong for 1500 years?

Anyway, God bless you on your search for truth.