Baptist

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Quote:
Originally Posted by catsrus
A toddler 2 or 3 years old???

Quote:
Originally posted by 12volt_man
Something like that.

Quote:
Originally posted by catsrus
So, according to this “reasoning”, a 2 year old who is not “reconciled to God” through his/her own understanding, is condemned to Hell???.

Quote:
Originally posted by 12volt_man
There is a doctrine know as the “age of accountability” that teaches that children (and, by logical extension the mentally handicapped) who cannot understand the moral consequences of their actions are not judged by the same standards as adults.

While this isn’t taught explicitly in scripture, it is strongly implied.

Reply by **catsrus **
This is very sad.
This “doctine” just reinforces my faith in the great and loving God that we Catholics worship in awe, truth and love, and the Holy Catholic Church that Christ left for us in which to do so.
 
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12volt_man:
You’re right, but that still is not baptism or church membership.
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Can you please give me your understanding of what is happening here: “Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, ‘Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God’” (Luke 18:15–16)?
 
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catsrus:
This is very sad.
This “doctine” just reinforces my faith in the great and loving God that we Catholics worship in awe, truth and love, and the Holy Catholic Church that Christ left for us in which to do so.
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So then, you believe that little babies who are unable to understand the moral consequences of their actions should go to Hell?

A God that would send a little baby to Hell who doesn’t even know what he did wrong doesn’t sound very loving to me.
 
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Eden:
Can you please give me your understanding of what is happening here: “Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, ‘Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God’” (Luke 18:15–16)?
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I’m not sure why you guys are reading baptism into this. Nowhere in this passage do we see that it has anything even remotely to do with baptism or church membership.
 
originally posted by 12volt_man
So then, you believe that little babies who are unable to understand the moral consequences of their actions should go to Hell?
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A God that would send a little baby to Hell who doesn’t even know what he did wrong doesn’t sound very loving to me.
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You’d better re-read my post; in fact, re-read you own post. YOU are the person who claims that toddlers not reconciled with Christ go to Hell.
DO NOT put words in my mouth nor misinterpret what I say. The God I worship is infinetly larger than my pitiful understanding. He can take to Himself any and all He desires, with or without benefit of an understanding of a doctrine derived from “implied scripture”.
 
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12volt_man:
I’m not sure why you guys are reading baptism into this. Nowhere in this passage do we see that it has anything even remotely to do with baptism or church membership.
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You haven’t stated what *you *believe these passages mean.

Also, nowhere in the Bible does it state that baptism is to be restricted to adults or consenting children. Can you give me one example in which a child in the Bible is raised in a Christian home and then grows up to make “a decision for Christ” and is then baptised?

We see clear examples of whole households (which includes all ages) being baptised in the Bible: In the New Testament we read that Lydia was converted by Paul’s preaching and that “She was baptized,** with her household**” (Acts 16:15). The Philippian jailer whom Paul and Silas had converted to the faith was baptized that night along with his household. We are told that “the same hour of the night . . . he was baptized, with all his family” (Acts 16:33). And in his greetings to the Corinthians, Paul recalled that, “I did baptize also the household of Stephanas” (1 Cor. 1:16).

Nowhere does it say, “did baptise those who were old enough to accept Christ as their savior”.

“Given the New Testament pattern of household baptism, if there were to be exceptions to this rule (such as infants), they would be explicit.”
 
Where does Scripture prescribe any age for baptism? I cannot find it.
 
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catsrus:
You’d better re-read my post; in fact, re-read you own post. YOU are the person who claims that toddlers not reconciled with Christ go to Hell.
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No, I never said this.

In fact, I even pointed out to you that we believe in the doctrine of the age of accountability which specifically says that babies do NOT go to Hell because they cannot grasp the moral consequences of their actions.
DO NOT put words in my mouth nor misinterpret what I say.
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I’m not. When I pointed out that we believe in the age of accountability doctrine that says that babies and those who cannot grasp the moral consequences of their actions will not go to Hell, you responded as though that were a bad thing.

What else am I to think? If you reject the idea that babies do not go to Hell, then the only other conclusion is that you think babies should go to Hell.
 
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Mickey:
Where does Scripture prescribe any age for baptism? I cannot find it.
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All throughout the New Testament, the example of baptism is that of a public profession of faith by those who have decided to follow Christ, not babies.
 
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12volt_man:
All throughout the New Testament, the example of baptism is that of a public profession of faith by those who have decided to follow Christ, not babies.
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Here is an excerpt from an article by Jordan Bajis:

Over and over again I am told that is incorrect to allow infants to be baptized because the Scriptural order is to first believe, and then to be baptized (Mark 16:16). The error in this thinking is not that it is incorrect to have an adult believe before he is baptized, but that one cannot apply a command intended for adults to infants. The Bible was not written to infants and is therefore not going to direct them to do anything. They are under the care of their parents who can hear, understand, and believe. Additionally, there is an important distinction to be made between baptizing an infant and an adult believer-one has the need to repent, the other does not.

It is also important to recognize that the New Testament records the beginnings of the Christian people. This accounts for it reading like a missionary diary in a number of places. I am certain that were I to begin an apostolic work in a totally heathen country, and to write to the people there or to record my progress in preaching the Gospel to them, I would not mention infant baptism even once.

And so now I will ask my question again:
Where does Scripture prescribe any age for baptism?
 
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12volt_man:
All throughout the New Testament, the example of baptism is that of a public profession of faith by those who have decided to follow Christ, not babies.
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Then what does this mean?

We see clear examples of whole households (which includes all ages) being baptised in the Bible: In the New Testament we read that Lydia was converted by Paul’s preaching and that “She was baptized,** with her household**” (Acts 16:15). The Philippian jailer whom Paul and Silas had converted to the faith was baptized that night along with his household. We are told that “the same hour of the night . . . he was baptized, with all his family” (Acts 16:33). And in his greetings to the Corinthians, Paul recalled that, “I did baptize also the household of Stephanas” (1 Cor. 1:16).
 
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Eden:
Can you please give me your understanding of what is happening here: “Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, ‘Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God’” (Luke 18:15–16)?
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Also, I asked several times but it may have gotten lost. What is your interpretation of these passages?
 
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12volt_man:
I’ve already addressed this.
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Please give me the chapter and verse that shows the prescribed age. I must have missed it. Thank you.
 
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12volt_man:
All throughout the New Testament, the example of baptism is that of a public profession of faith by those who have decided to follow Christ, not babies.
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Baptism replaced circumcision.

Circumcision was practiced as soon after birth as possible.

Would the same God that required this obedience in the OT, then withhold the act of obedience in the NT?

While the scriptures are rather silent on infant baptism… thankfully the early church fathers are not. It was taught, it was practiced, it was expected.

Scripture, Tradition, Magisterium… three witnesses to the Truth. Sorry, but the 3 sola’s just don’t measure up to Truth and Reason. (Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, O’ Sola Meo)
 
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MrS:
Baptism replaced circumcision.

Circumcision was practiced as soon after birth as possible.

Would the same God that required this obedience in the OT, then withhold the act of obedience in the NT?

While the scriptures are rather silent on infant baptism… thankfully the early church fathers are not. It was taught, it was practiced, it was expected.

Scripture, Tradition, Magisterium… three witnesses to the Truth.
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:amen:
 
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MrS:
Baptism replaced circumcision.
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Baptism didn’t replace circumcision, Christ replaced circulmcision.
While the scriptures are rather silent on infant baptism… thankfully the early church fathers are not. It was taught, it was practiced, it was expected.
Click to expand...
Scripture, Tradition, Magisterium… three witnesses to the Truth. Sorry, but the 3 sola’s just don’t measure up to Truth and Reason. (Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, O’ Sola Meo)
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But man’s opinion is still subject to the final authority of God’s word.
 
I think the age of baptism can be discerned from the discussion of Paul with the Apostles in Jerusalem. There they decided entry into the community was to be through baptism rather than circumcision. So the age for joining the community would be the same irrespective of the formal method used to join the community.

Circumcision is required on the 8th day after birth.
 
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