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Qwikness
Guest
When you say “the word,” do you mean scripture or The Word as God?
Born Again means Baptized (in water). Not merely uttering the words, “I accept Jesus as My personal Lord and Savior”
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Born Again means Baptized (in water). Not merely uttering the words, “I accept Jesus as My personal Lord and Savior”
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guanophore
Guest
Can you provide a scripture verse that supports this idea?
Again, can you show in scripture where this “inner experience” is required?
It is good to see that at least one aspect has been retained by our separated brethren.
I think you may have stopped reading a little too soon, Setfree:
Acts 10:44-11:1
44 While Peter was still saying this, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45 And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, 47 “Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.
The Apostles never separated baptism from the sealing of the HS. This is why God chose this method to show Peter that the gospel must go to to the Gentiles. Once Peter saw the Spirit had been given he immediately connected this to the water.
You are suffering from a deficient understanding of what it means to be “saved”, Setfree.
The Apostles never separated the conversion experience from the water.
Setfree, one element of bible reading you may want to consider is that the Bible does not contradict itself. All the passages must be read and understood as a whole. You can’t create a doctrine by excluding part of the Scriptures. Well, I guess you CAN, since I see you just DID, but this is improper.
1 Peter 3:20-21
in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience,
We are saved THROUGH the water. It is the action of the Holy Spirit, who gives us the circumcision made without hands, that saves us.
Mark 16:15-17
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
The reason that the Apostles never separated believing from the water is because Jesus did not separate them. This separation you are representing is a modern evangelical invention that cannot be found in the history of the Church.
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guanophore
Guest
This is just a twisting of the Scriptures to fit a modern theological invention, Setfree. If you are brave enough to look, you will find that the Apostles and their successors understood Jesus to be talking about water baptism, thorugh which the Spirit washes away our sins.
They all mention water baptism, you just don’t see it because you are not reading the Scriptures from the point of view of those that wrote them. Don’t you think the authors understood what they were trying to say?
What if the disciples of the Apostles were right, and you are wrong? What would it mean if the water baptism really is the one that is being talked about in these passages? How would that change your faith practice?
LOL I am looking forward to your exegesis of the Greek “emphesis”. Where are you getting this stuff?
The Apostles did not separate the belieiving from the water. Why do you?
LOL. again. Please show the Gk. “emphesis” to us.
Of course repenting needs to happen. Baptism remits sins because in it, the sins are washed away.; That is why the Apsotles called it the “waters of regeneration” (in which we are born again).
Someone has misled you about the Apostolic faith.
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Setfree
Guest
Jn 3:5, Doesn’t mention any kind of baptism.
It just says you must be born of the word and the Spirit.
The Bible mentions three Christian baptisms. And most religious people only know one of them, Which is water baptism.
Here are the three.
[1] Water baptism, An outward testimony of an ALREADY INWARD EXPERIENCE.
One identifying with Christ.
[2]The baptism in the Holy Ghost.
[3]The Spiritual baptism into the body of Christ.
PLEASE NOTE.
These aren’t in the right order.
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Setfree
Guest
If you read my post, You’ll see I gave scriptures that say we are cleansed and born again by the word of God, And as God and His word are one, I do mean both the scriptures and God.
Jn 1: 12–13 say were are born of God.
Where does the Bible say, "Born again means baptised [in water].
You won’t find that anywhere in the Bible, It is only in the minds of false religions.
The rebirth is more then saying the words. " I accept Jesus as my personal Lord and saviour".
Salvation is knownig what those words mean, And meaning those words.
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Setfree
Guest
[1] The reason you dan’t know what saved means, Is because you aren’t saved.
If you were, You would know what it means.
[2]Peter did mantions “Saved”, Acts 2: 21,
And Salvation, Which is the same thing, Acts 4: 12.
[3]Most Bible scholars believe Paul was saved in Acts 9: 6, When He surendered his will to Jesus, Then in v17, Ananias called him, “Brother Saul”.
Paul must have been saved in Acts 9: 17, Because you can’t have the Baptism in the Holy Ghost without being saved.
[4] Where did Jesus say you have to be baptised in water to be saved??, NOWHERE.
The Biblical steps are.
[1] Believe the gospel.
[2]Repent and get born again.
[3]Then, And then only can you be baptised in water.
A born again Christian can receive the baptism in the Holy Ghost and speak in tongues anytime they believe, There is no set time for it.
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Setfree
Guest
[1]If you were born again and a true Christian, You wouldn’t need to ask the question about the inner experience.
Here are some scriptures.
Paul had the inner experience, before he was baptised in water, He even had the Holy Ghost, HOW MUCH MORE EXPERIENCE DO YOU NEED??.
The gentile had the inner experience before they were baptised in water, Again, They had the Holy Ghost.
HOW MUCH MORE EXPERIENCE DO YOU NEED.
[2]Please note in Acts 10, They were baptised in water until the were ALREADY SAVED and baptised in the Holy Ghost.
THEY HAD THE INNER EXPERIENCE, But at that time they weren’t baptised in water.
The Apostle did separate the water baptism from the sealing of the Holy Ghost.
STOP TWISTING THE SCRIPTURES.
Water baptism was important in that day to identify with whoever you were baptised into.
But it wasn’t important for salvation.
[3]The Bible and the Apostles does separate the conversion from water baptism.
STOP TWISTING THE SCRIPTURES.
[4]Please note,In 1 Pet 3: 20-21. Water never saved Noah, It was the ark that saved him, Water would have killed him., Also note, Water is just a symbol of salvation, Not the thing that savevs.
Peter knew water baptism doesn’t save, He had a first hand experience when the gentiles were saved, Yet not baptised in water.
Water baptism has nothing to do with the Holy Ghost.
[5] The Greek emphesis for, “Saved” in Mk 16: 15-16, Is on the, “BELIEVING”, Not baptism.
[6]The Greek emphesis for “Remision of sins”, In Acts 2: 38, Is on the, “REPENTING”, not baptism.
[7] God, Jesus and the Apostles separated salvation from water baptism, If water baptism saves, Then God, Jesus, Peter, Paul and Philp all Got it wrong.
BUT I KNOW YOU THINK YOU ARE SMARTER THAN GOD.
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Setfree
Guest
I have shown you what the Bible and original Greek texts say, But I can’t make you believe them.
All I can say is, If you were a true Christian, You would have known that water doesn’t save.
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guanophore
Guest
I think your memory might not be accurate, Setfre. Either that, or you are using a Bible that did not come from the Apostles.
John 3:5
esus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God
The Apostles taught that being born again of water and Spirit happens in baptism.
Still waiting for the verse where you got this. :coffeeread:
No, and they are not in the right thinking, either. The Apostles did not separate these from one another. Separating them is an extrabiblical man made tradition that occurred as the result fo the Reformation, 1600 years after the the NT was written.
There is no doubt that we are washed in His Word. However, this is also accompanied by water.
Eph 5:25-26
Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
What “washing of water” is this, if not baptism?
This is how we understand what Jesus said to Nicodemus. You see, we read scripture from the point of view of those who wrote it. They taught their disciples that this conversation was about baptism.
It seems that you are saying that all the Churches founded by Apostles are “false religions”, since we believe that in baptism we are born again and washed clean from our sins.
Now that your true sentiments are out there, it begs the question, why did you come here? Is it your mission to inform Catholics that we are part of a “false religion”?
Definitely. Speaking of unbiblical doctrines that are part of “false religion”.
Yes.
Have you ever considered learning more about how you got your Bible?
Setfree, it may be impossible for you to lay aside your prejudice and bigotry, but if you wish to continue posting here, you may want to take a break and read the forum rules. When you do that, you will find that you have already violated several of them.
Indeed he did. He instructed the converts to be baptized for the remission of their sins.
You are suffering from a deficient understanding about the nature of salvation.
There are none so blind as those who do not wish to see.
Mark 16:16-17
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
This is certainly true about adult converts.
One can begin to see the problems that result when doctrine is formed by extracting it from the Scriptures, rather than receiving it from those to whom it has been entrusted.
I am kinda mystified about what this has to do with the topic.
M
Matthew_P_Muehl
Guest
I don’t get it either? If you read Matthew, Mark, and Luke no where does it state thatI don’t get Baptists. I found out recently they believe that Baptism isn’t necessary. Faith comes first and when it does, a person is “saved” then the Baptism may follow. Of course the person has to be completely submerged. If Faith is so important, why even baptize at all? If baptism isn’t so important then why require submersion?
on a lighter note, why do they call themselves “Baptists” why not Faithists.
Christ was submerged during his baptism.
Matthew
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twopekinguys
Guest
As the Lay Director of RCIA for our parish, I have found that baptismal questions rank near the top of the list with our inquirers (first stage of RCIA).
It amazes me how many churches, don’t keep records of the baptisms they perform. This includes many of the main stream protestant churches. It is like they are saying it isn’t that important that we need to record it.
Jesus’ baptism was recorded.
Also, I have found that many churches don’t think baptism is important at all, and is considered “optional”. My thought on that is, If Jesus thought it was important enough to have John baptize him, then shouldn’t it be that important for everyone?
Just my two cents.
It amazes me how many churches, don’t keep records of the baptisms they perform. This includes many of the main stream protestant churches. It is like they are saying it isn’t that important that we need to record it.
Jesus’ baptism was recorded.
Also, I have found that many churches don’t think baptism is important at all, and is considered “optional”. My thought on that is, If Jesus thought it was important enough to have John baptize him, then shouldn’t it be that important for everyone?
Just my two cents.
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Church_Militant
Guest
Really? Since you mention St. Paul’s conversion, let’s just have a look at that. Notice especially that last verse as to what it says about baptism.
[bibledrb]Acts of the apostles 22:11-16[/bibledrb]
Q
Qwikness
Guest
Looks like SetFree was banned.
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Qwikness
Guest
Another thing is the “Dedication” for babies. It’s like a they want to have their cake and eat it too. They want the sweetness of having something done for the babies at the church but don’t want to Baptize so they came up with this “Dedication”.
I don’t know what goes on at a dedication but it sounds like they introduce the baby to the church.
I don’t know what goes on at a dedication but it sounds like they introduce the baby to the church.
C
crazzeto
Guest
It should be noted that there is a real difference between the Catholic doctrin of “baptism by desire”, and the baptists saying baptism isn’t necessary. For the baptism, one can purposfully deny them selves baptism, even when they can readily receive it, and still be “saved”.
For the Catholic, this is not possible. If one can readily receive baptism, then it is critical that they do receive the sacrament. Christ did say after all, you can not enter the kingdom unless you are born of water and spirit.
But, we also know that Gods mercy trumps his justice, therefore in certain specific cases when one can not reasnoblly receive baptism we accept that they can be baptised by desire. This can be thought of best in terms of a question a baptist posed in Apologetics a while ago “What if a non-beleiver were stuck on an Island with a bible and (somehow) comes to fully accept Christ, would they be damned anyway just because they can’t be baptised”?
Well no, of course they won’t be damned anyway, they desire baptism in Christ but can not receive it because they have no one else to perform the Sacrament. This is baptism by desire, it is effectual in a certain given situation. I would follow this however, with this understanding. If that person, on that island, were to be rescued, then one of the first things they should do is receive baptism.
The same is true for baptism by blood, that is death by martyerdom prior to baptism.
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Zenas
Guest
No, but John 3:5 says: “Unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” It can’t get much plainer than that.
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Miriam1947
Guest
That seems to happen a lot around here. Can’t think it was because of this thread, perhaps on another.Looks like SetFree was banned.
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guanophore
Guest
Not really. A person has to be grossly disrespectful and persistently violating forum rules. A lot of it depends upon how the person responds to the mods, if they are willing to correct behavior or not. I read several posts of hers that that would warrant such an action.
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Miriam1947
Guest
That is why I said probably on another thread.
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Zenas
Guest
Very interesting thread. Now I have a question for Church Militant or someone else who may know. Why don’t Catholics baptize RCIA candidates at the front end of the program? That way they would be saved while still learning about the faith. I wouldn’t want to get half way through RCIA and die while unbaptized.
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