Baptists and Baptism

[crazzeto]

Very interesting thread. Now I have a question for Church Militant or someone else who may know. Why don’t Catholics baptize RCIA candidates at the front end of the program? That way they would be saved while still learning about the faith. I wouldn’t want to get half way through RCIA and die while unbaptized.

It doesn’t quite work that way Zenas, biblically speaking your not “saved” i.e. past tense and forever by any single particular act. There is no single profession or sacrament one can partake of to “be saved” period. Rather, being saved is closer to what you might call a life style in some sense. It is faith in Christ, but it is enduring obedient faith in Christ that saves, this can not be described as a single profession there for even if you baptised at the front end as you suggest, then what are you really achieving?

What is most important is to build and nurture faith in Christ, then when one is truely prepared and equipped to accept, fully accept baptism do you baptise. Then they are ready to continue in the faith, continue persevering, continue rejecting satan, continue seeking the Lord.

God bless,

 

[Mark01]

Salvation for a Catholic is a process, not a one time event. Baptism is the first step in the process as part of our sanctification. During the Sacrament of Baptism we are sanctified in the eyes of God and our sins are washed cleaned. We receive God’s sanctifying grace and start our journey toward salvation. It is the “how” we cooperate with God’s grace and persevere in our journey in faith that we arrive “saved” in Heaven. We have an assurance of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ and His message of the Gospel… IF**** we persevere

 

[BriaMarie]

Why don’t Catholics baptize RCIA candidates at the front end of the program? That way they would be saved while still learning about the faith. I wouldn’t want to get half way through RCIA and die while unbaptized.

Being in RCIA qualifies as baptism by desire, though. I was told that after the inquiry period (can’t remember the name of the rite, sorry) I was entitled to a Catholic funeral even though I hadn’t been baptised. I do agree with crazzeto’s comment, though.

 

[Zenas]

It doesn’t quite work that way Zenas, biblically speaking your not “saved” i.e. past tense and forever by any single particular act. There is no single profession or sacrament one can partake of to “be saved” period. Rather, being saved is closer to what you might call a life style in some sense. It is faith in Christ, but it is enduring obedient faith in Christ that saves, this can not be described as a single profession there for even if you baptised at the front end as you suggest, then what are you really achieving?

What is most important is to build and nurture faith in Christ, then when one is truely prepared and equipped to accept, fully accept baptism do you baptise. Then they are ready to continue in the faith, continue persevering, continue rejecting satan, continue seeking the Lord.

God bless,

I hesitated to use the word “saved” because of the probable response and you did not dissapoint. Granted, salvation is a continuous process throughout one’s life. But there comes an instant in time when the infidel becomes a believer and, but for baptism, would go to Heaven if he died. It seems to me that there are a lot of former infidels who are now believers and want to join the Catholic Church but are prevented from doing so because of having to go through a learning process. If they die during this learning process, before they are baptized, don’t they go to Hell? So why wait?

I utterly reject the concept that baptism is merely symbolic. If it were, there would be no urgency to baptize. But it is not. I do believe it is salvific. That is one thing I admire in our Church of Christ brothers. They baptize immediately whenever someone makes a profession of faith. Then they spend the time necessary to teach them the finer points of the faith.

 

[Zenas]

Salvation for a Catholic is a process, not a one time event. Baptism is the first step in the process as part of our sanctification. During the Sacrament of Baptism we are sanctified in the eyes of God and our sins are washed cleaned. We receive God’s sanctifying grace and start our journey toward salvation. It is the “how” we cooperate with God’s grace and persevere in our journey in faith that we arrive “saved” in Heaven. We have an assurance of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ and His message of the Gospel… IF**** we persevere

Exactly! So why wait for baptism? I can see waiting for confirmation and the other sacraments, but not for baptism.

 

[Zenas]

Being in RCIA qualifies as baptism by desire, though. I was told that after the inquiry period (can’t remember the name of the rite, sorry) I was entitled to a Catholic funeral even though I hadn’t been baptised. I do agree with crazzeto’s comment, though.

But Fermat told us in Post No. 3:

The primary difference here is that water baptism is the ‘ordinary’ means to salvation. Baptism by desire is when you desire baptism but cannot obtain it because there is no one around to administer the sacrament to you.

In RCIA the only thing preventing one from being baptized is that those who administer the rite are not willing to do so. I am reminded of the following passage from the 8th chapter of Acts.

35Then Philip, opening his mouth, and beginning at this scripture, preached unto him Jesus.
36And as they went on their way, they came to a certain water; and the eunuch said: See, here is water: what doth hinder me from being baptized?
37And Philip said: If thou believest with all thy heart, thou mayest. And he answering, said: I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38And he commanded the chariot to stand still; and they went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch: and he baptized him.

A new believer should not have to wait for baptism.

 

[kensi1954]

Hello, I was raised in the Baptist church and never, never caught on to what they were all about. Everything I was ever taught sounded trite and repetitive. I got the feeling that information was just “handed down” from generation to generation with no sense of actually “being.” No one could answer any of my questions to my satisfaction.

One thing I am certain of: Baptists are absolutely terrified of being questioned about their beliefs. It’s been my experience that to question ANYTHING related to the Baptist church will cause you to be looked upon as a tool of Satan. Questioning the Baptist doctrine is tantamount to being an infidel. I was literally told this, and that if I didn’t repent, I would burn in hell, as well as get my tail whipped for such spiritual insubordination. I grew weary of the lies and the threats and, after many conversations with the local priest, I was confirmed in the Catholic Church. After years of emptiness and doubt, I found where the teachings of Christ were literally being acted upon. God bless Father Brown for scooping up this poor “infidel” and giving her a spiritual birth that leaves no room for doubt.

By the way: the Church accepted my Baptist baptism. If it were the other way around, I would still be standing in line after 11 years!!

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

Hello, I was raised in the Baptist church and never, never caught on to what they were all about. Everything I was ever taught sounded trite and repetitive. I got the feeling that information was just “handed down” from generation to generation with no sense of actually “being.” No one could answer any of my questions to my satisfaction.

One thing I am certain of: Baptists are absolutely terrified of being questioned about their beliefs. It’s been my experience that to question ANYTHING related to the Baptist church will cause you to be looked upon as a tool of Satan. Questioning the Baptist doctrine is tantamount to being an infidel. I was literally told this, and that if I didn’t repent, I would burn in hell, as well as get my tail whipped for such spiritual insubordination. I grew weary of the lies and the threats and, after many conversations with the local priest, I was confirmed in the Catholic Church. After years of emptiness and doubt, I found where the teachings of Christ were literally being acted upon. God bless Father Brown for scooping up this poor “infidel” and giving her a spiritual birth that leaves no room for doubt.

By the way: the Church accepted my Baptist baptism. If it were the other way around, I would still be standing in line after 11 years!!

First off, I would like to say welcome home.
I have several baptist friends in my neck of the woods and when theology came up for the first time, they did get very defensive and viewed me from a different point of view from that point on… But you know I will never give up! anyway enjoy C.A.F.

Matthew

 

[Bev17243]

while i wasn’t a Baptist, my former church had a simular belief that baptism is just not necessary. If you die and not baptised, you could still be saved and go to heaven. That never made any sense to me from the beginning, Neither was “once saved, always saved” which i thought was insanity. This was one of the main reasons why i started looking elsewhere.
I have a close friend who is a Baptist but she is more openminded than most and doesn’t think that I’m joining “papists” in “idol worship” unlike some of the forks that i know

 

[twopekinguys]

Being in RCIA qualifies as baptism by desire, though. I was told that after the inquiry period (can’t remember the name of the rite, sorry) I was entitled to a Catholic funeral even though I hadn’t been baptised. I do agree with crazzeto’s comment, though.

You’re absolutely right, about the Baptism of Desire.

Once a person goes through the Rite of Acceptance, they are eligible for a funeral in the Church, and burial in a Catholic cemetery.

 

[Qwikness]

It is odd that even God himself had to be baptized by John (Matt 3:15) but Baptists don’t believe it is necessary for them.

 

[crazzeto]

I hesitated to use the word “saved” because of the probable response and you did not dissapoint. Granted, salvation is a continuous process throughout one’s life. But there comes an instant in time when the infidel becomes a believer and, but for baptism, would go to Heaven if he died. It seems to me that there are a lot of former infidels who are now believers and want to join the Catholic Church but are prevented from doing so because of having to go through a learning process. If they die during this learning process, before they are baptized, don’t they go to Hell? So why wait?

I utterly reject the concept that baptism is merely symbolic. If it were, there would be no urgency to baptize. But it is not. I do believe it is salvific. That is one thing I admire in our Church of Christ brothers. They baptize immediately whenever someone makes a profession of faith. Then they spend the time necessary to teach them the finer points of the faith.

Right, but until the person is truely ready to accept everything that goes along with baptism… Well, they’re actually better off not being baptised. Scriptures say so actually:

2 St Peter 2:

[20] For if, flying from the pollutions of the world, through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they be again entangled in them and overcome: their latter state is become unto them worse than the former.

I.E. when you are given the gift of salvation with Christ, but fall back into your old sinful ways, your latter state is worse than your former. Or, the more your given the more is required of you. If you fall after being given the gift of Christs salvation, then the thud is much harder, you’ll be tormented worse in the after life if you die in that state.

It is better to prepare the soul first for Gods salvation, rather than trying to go out there tossing holy water about just trying to get as many people “into salvation” as possible.

 

[guanophore]

It is odd that even God himself had to be baptized by John (Matt 3:15) but Baptists don’t believe it is necessary for them.

I don’t think this is accurate. It seems to me that Baptists most certainly DO find it “necessary for them” to be baptized. The difference is in how they characterize it. They think if it as an “ordinance” rather than a Sacrament, and don’t believe it confers grace, or has supernatural effects on the recipient.

They consider it a commandment of Christ, and if one does not follow it, one cannot be presumed to belong to Christ. If I am wrong, I trust one of our Baptist brethren will correct me,

 

[CrazyRachel]

I don’t think this is accurate. It seems to me that Baptists most certainly DO find it “necessary for them” to be baptized. The difference is in how they characterize it.

I was thinking the same thing because otherwise why would they be called Baptists if they didnt put any importance into baptism?

Horrible story, but not one that represents the majority of our Baptist friends by any means. At my old senior school there was an RE teacher who was a Baptist and he was a crazy fanatic who went around telling the Catholic and Anglican kids alike that their baptisms/christenings as babies didnt count and they wereant “saved” from hell and only a full submersion baptism would count. He was eventually fired and put on the sex offenders register for having an affair with a student.

 

[crazzeto]

I don’t think this is accurate. It seems to me that Baptists most certainly DO find it “necessary for them” to be baptized. The difference is in how they characterize it. They think if it as an “ordinance” rather than a Sacrament, and don’t believe it confers grace, or has supernatural effects on the recipient.

They consider it a commandment of Christ, and if one does not follow it, one cannot be presumed to belong to Christ. If I am wrong, I trust one of our Baptist brethren will correct me,

Part of me really wants to beleive what you posted… But I know of at least one baptist who is unbaptised, refuses to attend any church and frankly doesn’t read the bible. But believes he’s saved (answered an alter call once) and beleives that Catholics aren’t real Christians.

I also know yet another, whom I’m not sure if they’ve been baptised. But at my wedding rehersal when came with her husband (who was in my wedding), took time out to comment that it was silly having a dedicated baptismal font because baptism isn’t even necessary.

I know many others who have been baptised, but I think mainly because they think they should, more than they really have to.

I’m sure there are probably many who feel the way you posted, but I think the general problem I have with the baptist point of view is that it takes all of the above as equally valid.

 

[guanophore]

Part of me really wants to beleive what you posted… But I know of at least one baptist who is unbaptised, refuses to attend any church and frankly doesn’t read the bible. But believes he’s saved (answered an alter call once) and beleives that Catholics aren’t real Christians.

Well, we must not judge the Baptist doctrine by looking at those who disobey, just as we would not want Catholicism judged by the behavior of cafeteria Catholics.

It was from the Baptists that I learned about the verse “do not forsake the assembly of yourselves together, as is the habit of some” as a command to be in regular fellowship.

I was also taught by them that the Catholic Church was the Whore of Babylon.

I also know yet another, whom I’m not sure if they’ve been baptised. But at my wedding rehersal when came with her husband (who was in my wedding), took time out to comment that it was silly having a dedicated baptismal font because baptism isn’t even necessary.

I suppose there are many varieties of Baptists?

I know many others who have been baptised, but I think mainly because they think they should, more than they really have to.

Yes. This is how I understand the use of the term “ordinance”.

I’m sure there are probably many who feel the way you posted, but I think the general problem I have with the baptist point of view is that it takes all of the above as equally valid.

That stands to reason, with the great variety that exists.

 

[crazzeto]

Well, we must not judge the Baptist doctrine by looking at those who disobey, just as we would not want Catholicism judged by the behavior of cafeteria Catholics.

It was from the Baptists that I learned about the verse “do not forsake the assembly of yourselves together, as is the habit of some” as a command to be in regular fellowship.

I was also taught by them that the Catholic Church was the Whore of Babylon.

I suppose there are many varieties of Baptists?

Yes. This is how I understand the use of the term “ordinance”.

That stands to reason, with the great variety that exists.

My comments are meant to show the great variance in acceptable doctrine, as it were. It’s acceptable for a baptist to do as person 1, or to beleive as person 2, or to view baptism as necessary. Thus the fundamental flaw. I do like being eccumencail, and charitable. But I also think at some point one most simply acknowlege the reality of a situation as well.

The reality of the situation is that the baptist view on baptism could use some fine tuning.

 

[Zenas]

Baptists got their name from the Anabaptists of 16th Century Europe. These people were mostly former Anglicans who rejected the practice of paedobaptism (baptism of children) in favor of credobaptism (baptism of believers). Since they chose to be rebaptized as adults, they came to be called Anabaptists.

One of the leaders of this movement was a man named John Smyth. Smyth decided that baptism requires a prior belief in Christ, so he wanted to be rebaptized. He could find no one to do this so he baptized himself. True story.

There are many different kinds of Baptists but they all have this in common—they practice only believers baptism by immersion. They won’t baptize anyone without a public profession of faith, and then only if the pastor or some other suitable person in authority determines that the candidate is sincere and understands what he or she is doing. Sometimes this results in very young children having their baptism delayed.
Baptism for Baptists has two meanings and purposes:

        1.	It is a public expression of the new believer’s death and burial with Christ and his rising up into newness of life.
        2.	It is a requirement for membership in the church.

Baptist churches differ considerably as to whether a previously baptized adult may join their church. Some will only accept the baptism of a church of “like faith and order.” Others will accept the baptism of any other Baptist church. Still others will accept anyone who has had believer’s baptism by immersion without regard to the denomination.

There may be some people who identify themselves as Baptists without ever having been baptized. However, I can say with virtually 100% certainty that they are not members of any church.

 

[Qwikness]

I understand that Baptists think one has to believe before being baptized otherwise it doesn’t count because it comes before the age of reason and all that. But the other sacraments come after the age of reason so one could just stop and not follow through if they don’t believe?

 

[Zenas]

I understand that Baptists think one has to believe before being baptized otherwise it doesn’t count because it comes before the age of reason and all that. But the other sacraments come after the age of reason so one could just stop and not follow through if they don’t believe?

Baptists don’t have sacraments. They have two ordinances–baptism and the Lord’s supper. In the Baptist view, no graces are imparted by either of these ordinances because both of them are merely symbolic. In baptism you identify with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. In the Lord’s supper you remember His broken body and His shed blood on the cross. And Baptists call it the Lord’s supper. I was probably 55 years old before I ever heard the word “Eucharist.”

I’m not sure why Baptists don’t recognize the sacraments because some of them literally jump off the pages of the Bible. But ask a Baptist and they will say sacraments are an invention of man and not of God. The only way of receiving grace is by exercising faith, not through sacraments.