Baptists and the Necessity of Immersion

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OK. Let me rephrase that: it’s not Biblical baptism.

Please feel free to show me that verse.

No, the Biblical model defines what constitutes the Biblical model.
Noting here that we’re going off topic, I refer you to the three places where “whole households” are baptized. This presumes infants. And the Apostolic Church, which received the teaching from Christ Himself, baptized infants. Scripture is not lock-tight clear on the subject.

Nobody denies that adult baptism would be the norm in the New Testament: they were nearly all converts. But that Paul refers to Baptism as replacing circumcision, certainly points to the inclusion of infants.

I will not respond to this subject again on this thread, since this is supposed to be about immersion.
 
That’s not baptism.

Yes, but it doesn’t have anything to do with Baptists. If he is to follow the Biblical model, then he needs to be baptised.
The Bible does not support your claim. You are reading into scripture something that is not there. Baptism is an objective sign. If someone is baptized in water, in the name of The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit they have objectively been baptized. You cannot provide one verse that says that baptism is not a baptism. We have the household baptisms (no birth control means there were most certainly babies and small children) and the critical thing being overlooked is that the NT records the very first generation of Christians, so of course we are going to see adult believing and being baptized because they were the first.

But since scripture nowhere forbids infant baptism the burden of proof is on you to prove that the baptism is not valid. It is like saying a baby who has a bath did not have a real bath because they did not consent to it so they did not take a bath. But objectively that had a bath. If someone is baptized in water… they are baptized in water. Scripture puts no age limits on it and the NT church understood the concept of the covenantal unity of a household. That is why Acts 2:38-39 proves that baptism is for believers and their children. We do not treat our children as pagans. They are set apart by virtue of being represented by a believer as scripture teaches and they, of course, need to ratify their faith when they are old enough to understand it. But nowhere does scripture teach believers to treat their children as pagans, but that is precisely what the Baptist position demands.

So until you can prove with scripture that a baptism is not a baptism, you have no grounds for saying someone who was properly baptized was not baptized anymore that you can say someone who has been fed by someone else has not eaten.
 
We’re going off topic a bit here…perhaps a moderator will split this off because I’d love to continue with this! 👍
It says that God has given us scripture for the purpose of determining doctrine.
Which came first, the Church or the New Testament?
OK. Give me just one example of Jesus saying that works save us.
Matthew 7:21
No. The Bible tells us that we are to gather corporately. It doesn’t tell us that we are to have the Lord’s Supper at every gathering.
But the Apostles did…Acts 2:42 says that they “continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.”
 
The Bible does not support your claim.
Actually, it does. Every example of baptism that we have in the Bible follows repentance and faith.
You cannot provide one verse that says that baptism is not a baptism.
I’m not claiming that baptism isn’t baptism. I’m claiming that the ritual of baptising babies is not Biblical baptism.
But since scripture nowhere forbids infant baptism the burden of proof is on you to prove that the baptism is not valid.
Show me an infant who repents of his sin and places his faith in Christ’s atonement.
Scripture puts no age limits on it
You’re right. However, it does say that it is for those who’ve repented and put their faith in Christ. That would preclude infants, as infants cannot do this.
But nowhere does scripture teach believers to treat their children as pagans, but that is precisely what the Baptist position demands.
And that’s a lie. I knew that Muslims practiced taqyaa. I didn’t realize Roman Catholics did, too.
 
So, every household has an infant?
Don’t be silly. The word “household” – appearing in at least three places – certainly allows for the **probability **that infants were in the household. This is especially true in the case of the Philippine jailer. In other words, your assumption that a household would NOT include infants is less likely than that a household WOULD include infants – that is, children beneath the age of rational assent.
 
Christians have also always realized that the necessity of water baptism is a normative rather than an absolute necessity. There are exceptions to water baptism: It is possible to be saved through “baptism of blood,” martyrdom for Christ, or through “baptism of desire”, that is, an explicit or even implicit desire for baptism.
catholic.com/library/necessity_of_baptism.asp

In the course of further study, however, I discovered that the overwhelming majority of Christians whom God had used in the past centuries of the Church not only practiced infant baptism but did so because they believed the Scriptures taught it. The great evangelical theologian of the Ancient Church, Augustine, held to the practice and so did the great Reformers: John Hus, Martin Luther, John Calvin, and John Knox. Those devout scholars, John Wycliff and William Tyndale, who labored to give us the English Bible, and all the translators involved in the King James Version held that the practice was biblical

When we come to the revivalists of the Eighteenth Century, we find both John and Charles Wesley, George Whitfield and Jonathan Edwards, men whom God used in the conversions of untold thousands, all practiced infant baptism. This is true also of the overwhelming majority of the Christians who were involved in settling and founding the United States—from the Pilgrims on the Mayflower to the Huguenots from France. These were not people who did things because of tradition rbvincent.com/BibleStudies/Infbapt.htm

A relatively high percentage of babies born in the U.S. die before their first birthday, compared with other industrialized nations. Forty countries, including Cuba, Taiwan and most of Europe had lower infant mortality rates than the U.S. in 2004. The U.S. rate was 6.8 deaths for every 1,000 live births. It was 13.7 for Black Americans, the same as Saudi Arabia. apnews.myway.com/article/20070812/D8QVEIRO0.html

Proselyte baptisms
Reference has already been made to proselyte baptisms under the heading Jewish antecedents. It is not without significance that when converts to the Jewish faith were baptised their children were included in the act of baptism. Whether proselyte baptism came before Christian baptism or Christian baptism came before proselyte baptism makes little difference. The practice of including children shows how deeply embedded into the Jewish psyche was the importance of children in God’s covenant purposes. The inclusion of children in proselyte baptisms adds weight to the argument that Jewish converts to Christ would take it for granted that their children were to be included in the act of baptism [The Biblical Doctrine of Baptism, a study document issued by the Special Commission on Baptism of the Church of Scotland (Convener, Prof T F Torrance), The Saint Andrew Press 1958, pp45f]. www27.brinkster.com/johnhartley/bi-ufcos-p6.html

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/CAMORM2.HTM
THESE ARE THE SACRAMENTS
ewtn.com/library/DOCTRINE/SACRAMEN.TXT

he Church belongs to the Oriental Orthodox family of churches, and has been a distinct church body since the Council of Chalcedon in 451 AD,

the Coptic Orthodox Church is the Church of Alexandria that was established by Saint Mark, the apostle and evangelist, in the middle of the 1st century (approximately 42 AD). The head of the church, and the See of Alexandria, is the Pope of Alexandria and Patriarch of All Africa on the Holy See of Saint Mark, currently His Holiness Pope Shenouda III. More than 95% of Egypt’s Christians belong to the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria, though other churches also claim Patriarchates and Patriarchs of Alexandria, among them:
The Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria,
The Coptic Catholic Church of Alexandria,
The Greek Melkite Catholic Patriarchate of Antioch, Alexandria and Jerusalem
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_Church

The Sacrament of Baptism has the first rank among the Seven Holy Sacraments, as it is the door by which the believer enters the church and has the right to partake in the rest of the Sacraments.

Baptism is a redemptive Sacrament, necessary for redemption and entry to eternal life according to what the Lord said: “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of Water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God” (John 3). It is one of the four redemptive Sacraments: Baptism, Myron, Confession and Communion of the Holy Body and precious Blood of the Lord.

If his parents neglect the Baptism, and the child dies without Baptism, it is the right of the church to impose a punishment on the parents for a period of one year, of prayers and fasting with prostration. They may also be forbidden to receive the Holy Eucharist during this whole year. copticchurch.net/topics/thecopticchurch/sacraments/1_baptism.htm
 
In other words, your assumption that a household would NOT include infants is less likely than that a household WOULD include infants – that is, children beneath the age of rational assent.
When did I assume that a household wouldn’t include infants? I simply pointed out that not every household has infants.
 
John Phocas (1135 AD) mentioned: “Beyond the Jordan opposite to the place of our Lord’s baptism, is much brushwood, in the midst of which, at the distance of about one stadium, is the grotto of John the Baptist which is very small, and not capable of containing a well-built man standing up right, and opposite this, in the depth of the desert is another grotto, in which the prophet Elias dwelt when he was carried off by the fiery chariot.”

Apostolic period
The Bible gives accounts of baptisms performed before this period, in the lifetime of Jesus, by John the Baptist in the Jordan River, and by Jesus himself, not personally but through his disciples. In the apostolic period, it reports baptisms of about 3,000 persons in Jerusalem within a single day, that of Pentecost, of men and women in Samaria, of an Ethiopian eunuch,of Saul, who was later called Paul of the household of Cornelius, of Lydia’s household, of the Philippi jailer’s household,of many Corinthians,of certain Corinthians baptized by Paul personally.

None of these accounts give an exact description of how baptism was administered in the apostolic period, whether by immersion, by pouring water on someone standing in a stream or pool, or in some other way. However, the idea of washing implicit in the word ßapt??? (see above) implies the use of water, though there is only one explicit mention (Acts 8:38) of the use of water in apostolic times. for instance, 3,000 people were baptized in Jerusalem, which only had mikvahs for immersion, in a single day, as recounted in Acts 2:41, or when the whole household of the Philippi jailer were baptized immediately during the night of the earthquake (Acts 16:33); they also point to the explicit recognition in early Christian writings, one of which, the Didache, may even date from apostolic times, that other forms of baptism were valid.
welcometohosanna.com/LIFE_OF_JESUS/14baptism.htm

Liddell and Scott is not the only authority to point out that the Greek word βαπτίζω did not mean exclusively, dip, plunge, immerge. Scholars of various denominationspoint to two passages in the New Testament as indicating that the word was used of something much less than the total immersion of the person. Luke 11:38 recounts that, when Jesus ate at a Pharisee’s house, “the Pharisee was astonished to see that he did not first wash (βαπτίζω - literally, “be baptized” or “baptize himself”) before dinner.” Those who point to this passage say that the Pharisee will not have expected Jesus to immerse himself fully before having a meal and that his surprise will have been at Jesus’ omission of the customary ritual washing of the hands. The other New Testament passage pointed to is Mark 7:3–4a: “The Pharisees … do not eat unless they wash (νίπτω, the ordinary word for washing) their hands thoroughly, observing the tradition of the elders; and when they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they wash themselves (literally, “baptize themselves” - βαπτίζω)”. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism
 
When did I assume that a household wouldn’t include infants? I simply pointed out that not every household has infants.
Correct, but some do, and the Bible didn’t exclude those.

Since a Christian man may have his whole household Baptized, that would include any infants in that man’s household.

So say otherwise would be un-Biblical.
 
Correct, but some do, and the Bible didn’t exclude those.

Since a Christian man may have his whole household Baptized, that would include any infants in that man’s household.

So say otherwise would be un-Biblical.
So you say. The Bible says otherwise.
 
When did I assume that a household wouldn’t include infants? I simply pointed out that not every household has infants.
You are equivocating. I am attempting to be patient. A “household” might or might not include infants. In the ancient world the probability would be that it did include infants. Since the New Testament brings up the point that households were baptized, we can affirm, according to the evidence of early Christian testimony AND practice in the apostolic and immediate sub-apostolic age that the practice of infant baptism came to us from those who were taught by Christ Himself.

Catholic theology and practice never tears the Scriptures out of the source that produced the New Testament: the Church.
 
Don’t be silly. The word “household” – appearing in at least three places – certainly allows for the **probability **that infants were in the household.
I don’t know. If they came into my household, they wouldn’t find an infant…just a 4 year old and an 8 year old.

If they came into my friend’s house (with 7 children), they would find only children over the age of 8.

If they came into my cousin’s house (with 4 children ) they would find only children over the age of 12.

If they came into my friend’s household (with 12 children) a few years back (when they were nearly all living at home) they would find everyone over the age of 10.

Why is it presumed that the household had infants? What makes one presume this?
 
Post One Bible verse that says not to Baptize Infants
If you can find an infant who is able to repent of his sins and place his faith in Christ and he chooses to be baptised, then by all means, baptise him.
 
Which came first, the Church or the New Testament?"
Well, 2 Timothy came before the Bible was compiled. Scripture was written and used for teaching and rebuking well before the bible was compiled in the 300’s.
 
I don’t know. If they came into my household, they wouldn’t find an infant…just a 4 year old and an 8 year old.

If they came into my friend’s house (with 7 children), they would find only children over the age of 8.

If they came into my cousin’s house (with 4 children ) they would find only children over the age of 12.

If they came into my friend’s household (with 12 children) a few years back (when they were nearly all living at home) they would find everyone over the age of 10.

Why is it presumed that the household had infants? What makes one presume this?
Households were larger and included servants and their families. You give examples of people with no infants in their households. Again, you equivocate. The very word “household” leaves the door open for “infants.”

Would your 4 year old be considered eligible for baptism on your terms?
 
Peace and God Bless to all!!! I am directing this to Scottm who is looking to become more Catholic:) (I will be praying for your coming home to Rome!!) You need to read a short book called where we got the Bible. I cannot rember the author but I am sure you can google it. This book was written by a convert to the Catholic Church. His research into the book lead to him seeing the flaws of all Protestant churches and finding the fullness of salvation in the Catholic CHurch. Christ speaks of the CHurch being his bride in the BIble!! How could this CHurch not appear until the 1600’s?? He promised to send His spirit to lead us in the fullness of truth. The only CHurch that can honsestly trace its roots back to Christ is the Roman Catholic CHurch. THere are many anti-Catholics out there that make outlandish and untrue attacks against our wonderful faith, but if you do some research and look for educated Catholics that can refure ALL of there attacks you will find the peace of Christ in his true Bride, the Roman Catholic Church.

Peace and God BLess you on your Way!!!
 
If you can find an infant who is able to repent of his sins and place his faith in Christ and he chooses to be baptised, then by all means, baptise him.
Modern Catholic Encyclopedia
It is pointed out that these texts are so broadly worded as to include even infants, especially the latter text. That the former text also applies to them, has been constantly maintained by the Fathers, who declare that if infants can not confess Christ with the mouth, they can by act.
newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm
search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780814652190&itm=1

original sin, its effects on the souls of all people, and the necessity of baptism for its removal. Genesis 3:16-24, Romans 5:12-19, 1 Corinthians 15:21-22, and Galatians 3:27.

Several things happen at baptism. First, the spiritual (though not physical) effects of original sin are removed from the soul. This removal is accompanied by an infusion of sanctifying grace, which makes the soul spiritually alive. The soul receives an indelible character that irrevocably identifies it as a member of the heavenly family. Also, all punishment due to pre-baptismal actual sins is completely remitted. This kind of baptism–the only kind mentioned in the Bible–is for the living, not for the dead. Our chance to become heirs with Christ comes here on earth. Once we’ve died, there is no chance to be baptized.
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/CAMORM2.HTM
THESE ARE THE SACRAMENTS
ewtn.com/library/DOCTRINE/SACRAMEN.TXT

The Church belongs to the Oriental Orthodox family of churches, and has been a distinct church body since the Council of Chalcedon in 451 AD,

the Coptic Orthodox Church is the Church of Alexandria that was established by Saint Mark, the apostle and evangelist, in the middle of the 1st century (approximately 42 AD). The head of the church, and the See of Alexandria, is the Pope of Alexandria and Patriarch of All Africa on the Holy See of Saint Mark, currently His Holiness Pope Shenouda III. More than 95% of Egypt’s Christians belong to the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria, though other churches also claim Patriarchates and Patriarchs of Alexandria, among them:
The Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria,
The Coptic Catholic Church of Alexandria,
The Greek Melkite Catholic Patriarchate of Antioch, Alexandria and Jerusalem
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_Church

The Sacrament of Baptism has the first rank among the Seven Holy Sacraments, as it is the door by which the believer enters the church and has the right to partake in the rest of the Sacraments.

Baptism is a redemptive Sacrament, necessary for redemption and entry to eternal life according to what the Lord said: “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of Water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God” (John 3). It is one of the four redemptive Sacraments: Baptism, Myron, Confession and Communion of the Holy Body and precious Blood of the Lord.

but if the new-born is sick and his parents are afraid the baby will die, they must request the priest to baptize and anoint the baby with the Myron, even if the child is one day old, and under any circumstance (as the priest may not be fasting or unable to baptize him by immersion); the baptism must be carried out quickly, so that the child does not die without Baptism and is deprived from entry or sight of the Kingdom, according to the words of our beloved Savior (John 3). The method to be followed is that someone, except the mother, should take the child to the church to be baptized. If the baby lives, the Baptism is correct and should not be repeated.

If his parents neglect the Baptism, and the child dies without Baptism, it is the right of the church to impose a punishment on the parents for a period of one year, of prayers and fasting with prostration. They may also be forbidden to receive the Holy Eucharist during this whole year. copticchurch.net/topics/thecopticchurch/sacraments/1_baptism.htm
 
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