Baptists can trace their history to NT times

[pnewton]

mike182d:

Then how can you account for the teaching of the Baptist Church contradicting Christian teaching as early as the 2nd Century? When are you claiming this “split” happen? And if this split is legitimate, why does it contradict 2000 years of Christian teaching?

I can answer this question somewhat, at least as most Baptist I knew viewed it. Most of the corruption came through the middle ages. There was never a single date for a split, but a drifting away from the gospel as Jesus established it.

The hard question is whether it contradicts early church teaching. If you define the early church as the Baptist do (that which is only specified within the canon of scripture, then they would claim they do not not contradict the early church. Since they put no faith in any other writings, most are ignorant of what the early church believed or how they worshipped past 50 AD.

The inconsistancy with this is that more trust is placed in Bible scholars 2000 years removed than in first, second and third generation theologians, who actually learned from the apostles firsthand.

 

[Brian_C]

Yes, that is the only thing that was ever told me. We were better b/c we were doing things the way the ORIGINAL Christians did things. All that Catholic stuff was invented in France or something…

Imagine my surprise!

pnewton:

I can answer this question somewhat, at least as most Baptist I knew viewed it. Most of the corruption came through the middle ages. There was never a single date for a split, but a drifting away from the gospel as Jesus established it.

The hard question is whether it contradicts early church teaching. If you define the early church as the Baptist do (that which is only specified within the canon of scripture, then they would claim they do not not contradict the early church. Since they put no faith in any other writings, most are ignorant of what the early church believed or how they worshipped past 50 AD.

The inconsistancy with this is that more trust is placed in Bible scholars 2000 years removed than in first, second and third generation theologians, who actually learned from the apostles firsthand.

 

[JSmitty2005]

For a refutation of the “Trail of Blood” check this out:

cafepress.com/turrisfortis.16799704

 

[havemercy]

Dear ExpectAMiracle,

I’m waiting for one, but I’m not quite sure whether or not I should expect one. Sometimes you just leave us speechless.

Love,
Tony

 

[havemercy]

ExpectAMiracle:

Jesus told Peter he was th rock and that he would build his church on that rock. My Bible says nothing about it being a Catholic rock.

Have you ever heard of something called ‘time’? Yeah, we live in it. Stuff happens over time. For example, new words/terms will develop, ones that will not be found (explicitly or implicity) in scripture.

Your church is distracted by it’s rituals that you cannot focus on Christ’s teachings.

What would you know? Are you a Catholic Christian? It is because we immerse ourselves in these rituals that we’re pulled so deeply into the teachings and life of Jesus.

It’s sad the majority of Catholics taking communion think that’s enough to get by. I don’t remember Jesus setting a frequency to the number of observances of his last supper. Why do you do it every week. It seems to me his sacrifice once was enough. why do you continue to put him on the cross?

First, we don’t re-crucify Jesus, at ANY time. I’m beginning to think that you’re a fake user, a Catholic in disguise, having fun and being silly. Jesus didn’t specify the number of times to re-enact the supper but he told us to DO IT. (Recommended reading: The Lamb’s Supper, by Scott Hahn.)

Unless you are very healthy you weren’t alive 2000 years ago either. So everything you know about Christ has come from the same scripture and stories we read.

This is absolutely FALSE. For at LEAST 60 years the gospel message was transmitted ORALLY. They weren’t reading anything, save the letters of various Apostles. Those weren’t even considered to be scripture.

Why are you more concerned with observing the Catholic church than following Christ?

One way of following Christ is to be one with His church, thus we are QUITE concerned about following Christ.

Jesus said “pick up your cross and follow me”. He didn’t say pick up your cross and follow the Catholic church.

He said to pick up our crosses and follow Him. But that is not all that he said (in the gospels even)! Have you even read the gospels?

So why the arrogance towards God’s word?

I’ll pretend you didn’t say that.

Why do you rarely see a Bible at a Catholic Mass?

We DO see a Bible at every Catholic mass. But that’s not important at all! What is important is to HEAR the word as it is spoken. Seeing the Bible means nothing if you will not listen: if you will not obey. Which is precisely what you are not doing.

You should read some Catholic apologetics. I recommend Dave Armstrong’s A Biblical Defense of Catholicism. You are capable of reading, right? If so, I also recommend reading the Bible.

So, ExpectAMiracle. I’m waiting for one, but I’m not quite sure whether or not I should expect one. Sometimes you just leave us speechless. I’m praying for you.

Peace and grace be with you.
lovetony

 

[Will_Pick]

ExpectAMiracle:

think they have the corner on the market when it comes to truth. Most Catholics seemed more concerned with being a “good catholic” vs. going out in the world and doing God’s work. The “wafer” at Mass doesn’t save you - being a follower of Jesus and being baptized in the holy spirit does. If more of Christ’s followers took the time to understand the Word of God they would know that the truth is through him - not through the Catholic church. The hair splitting amongst Christians is hampering our ability to get to the people that truly need the light of Christ in their lives.

I SEE YOU ARE ONE OF THE PEOPLE THAT BELIVE IN John 6:66,WHY DO YOU NOT BELIEVE IN WHAT THE BIBLE HAS TO SAY PLEASE READ ALL OF JOHN

 

[Sirach14]

JoeyWarren:

Baptists claim the same heritage. They claim the apostles were not Catholic or the previous incarnation called Universal.

It’s funny that the Apostles taught Catholic Doctrine.

 

[Sirach14]

ExpectAMiracle:

Totally disagree with that statement. I am in the hotbed of Catholics here in central PA. I would say it is most certainly the other way around. I have been reading this board and the arrogance and ignorance to other faiths demostrated by many catholics that post here is alarming. I choose to read God’s word, meditate on scripture and work to lead people to a psersonal relationship with God. I rarely here catholics refer to themselves as Christian. They always say “he or she is a good catholic”. Too many catholics are missing the boat following the church and not keeping their eyes on Christ.

Where does the Bible emphasize a personal relationship with Christ; or accepting Christ as personal Lord and Savior?

 

[Sirach14]

Eden:

I think that is the first time I have ever heard Catholics being accused of *not *doing works!

You realize Catholics are followers of Christ and are baptised, right?

In the Word of God you will see that Christ establishes a Church. One Church. Also, if you read the history of the Bible you will discover the Church’s involvement at the Councils of Carthage and Hippo. We know the Bible.

I agree, and Paul states that the Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth, not the Bible.

The doctrinal differences amongst the breakaway churches are not hair-splitting. There are major theological errors amongst those churches regarding salvation, baptism, the Real Presence; not minor points at all.

 

[empacae]

A BAptist friend of mine who is also a pastor (God help his flock), gave me JM Carroll’s tract Trail of Blod. Before I could even take it home to research it I scanned it quickly and saw how the Church killed 50,000,000 “Christians” in the “Dark Ages” for their heresies. Something about this number didn’t gel right for me. 50 million. If the plague killed off 9 million people and the economy of Europe was severely crippled by the loss of these people how could 50 mil be killed off? It just did not make any sense to me. So right away I knew something was up. I took the tract/book home read it through than searched for it on the Internet, and to my surprise (not) was refuted by numerous historical scholars… aha! I still haven’t returned \Trail of Blood yet, not sure I’m going to, as I’m sure he’ll use this book again on some ignorant or misinformed individual to bolster his claims that the Baptists have existed all theway back to the days of Christ.

What I would like to get is some sort of documentation from Carroll himself of how his research was flawed to show him. Anybody know where I could get such a letter?

emp

 

[Lance]

ExpectAMiracle:

mike:

I will pray for you. Jesus told Peter he was th rock and that he would build his church on that rock. My Bible says nothing about it being a Catholic rock. Your church is distracted by it’s rituals that you cannot focus on Christ’s teachings. It’s sad the majority of Catholics taking communion think that’s enough to get by. I don’t remember Jesus setting a frequency to the number of observances of his last supper. Why do you do it every week. It seems to me his sacrifice once was enough. why do you continue to put him on the cross?

Unless you are very healthy you weren’t alive 2000 years ago either. So everything you know about Christ has come from the same scripture and stories we read. The biggest difference as I see it is your church has have had many MEN under papal infalibility changing and interpreting the doctrine. My question was an honest one. Why do you feel your church with all of it’s MAN made rituals and changes in doctrine has a corner on the market? Why are you more concerned with observing the Catholic church than following Christ? Jesus said “pick up your cross and follow me”. He didn’t say pick up your cross and follow the Catholic church. So why the arrogance towards God’s word? Why do you rarely see a Bible at a Catholic Mass?

You see and hear the Bible at every mass. You obviously either have not been to a Catholic mass or were not paying attention. Just because it is not black does not mean it is not a Bible.

 

[theguidedheart]

ExpectAMiracle:

Totally disagree with that statement. I am in the hotbed of Catholics here in central PA. I would say it is most certainly the other way around. I have been reading this board and the arrogance and ignorance to other faiths demostrated by many catholics that post here is alarming. I choose to read God’s word, meditate on scripture and work to lead people to a psersonal relationship with God. I rarely here catholics refer to themselves as Christian. They always say “he or she is a good catholic”. Too many catholics are missing the boat following the church and not keeping their eyes on Christ.

To be Catholic is to be Christian in the fullest sense - To follow the Church is to follow Christ in the fullest sense… we are the only Church to receive the 7 sacraments as he insituted them, we are the only Church that takes the whole of Christ’s word and apply it to our faith and salvation… I myself have been around the forums and I have not seen ‘BASHING’ of anything - but I will say its hard to have a rational discussion over matters of faith when the opposition refuses to base their arguments over Scripture in its full context. Its too easy to say ‘we are saved by believing in Jesus’ because the Bible says so - and then disregard the other teachings in the Bible that also say Baptism is not symbolic, but necessary for eternal life, those who eat the flesh and blood of Christ will have eternal life, the dozens of references (all speaking to Christians) in which the Apostles refer to sins that lead to death and losing ones Salvation… I mean we as Catholics could go on and on… but if we seem defensive about the Truth, its because it is God’s Truth, not own own relative definition of Truth based on personal interpretation, so what better reason to be on guard about what we believe, when we believe in the fullness of our Lord, Christ Jesus.

 

[seetiger33]

So we are tracing a belief down to genetics huh>? Whatever happened to the Body of Christ???

 

[theguidedheart]

ExpectAMiracle:

MariaG:

Is Bengal fan’s question really so hard to answer?

Maria:

I’m not baptist. But I would say you can trace the history of our church back through Jesus and his teachings. The corrupt nature of the Catholic church and abuse of scripture caused an enlightenment of the breakaway churches who can trace their roots back through to Jesus Christ. In other words, the way I see it is that history proves we were all once one church. However, when the church used it’s influence and power for corrupt puposes and financial gain, all bets were off. that’s my stab at it. FYI - my Bible doesn’t have the word “Catholic” in it anywhere. And look at the definition of universal - it can mean other things besides catholic. To take the corner on the truth market based on this is a mistake in my opinion.

It seems that some people read the Bible over and over and yet still don’t get the message. Imagine if the 11 Apostles once finding out that Judas was stealing from them, and turned Jesus in, said ‘forget it, there is sin within our group, there is error, I am leaving because this is obviously a flawed God who would pick a person like Judas to be among his 12.’… IMAGINE what that would have meant for the world of Christianity. And yet 1600 years later this was a lesson easily forgotten, because man determined that he knew more than God, and he left the Church of God, the Church that Jesus founded because he thought the sin of corruption within His Divine institution was sign of falsehood. Not the case… it has been natural for the Church to go through times of trial, through times of corruption, as it is how it was from the beginning when the 11 were faced with the sin of Judas, and yet they continued on, and the Church refines itself in times like these to prove that God is stronger than evil, and through his mercy, and love, we are able to come out of this refinement as a stronger Church. This is the case today, where the Catholic Church is probably stronger than its ever been, and its only a shame that those who left it, will never know the strength of ONE, UNITED, Church of God, even in times of trial.

Anyway, to stay relatively to the topic… Baptists can trace their lineage to Christ… when they were Catholic.

Peace,

Chris

 

[Erbey]

BULL CRUD!!!

 

[Texan_in_DC]

ExpectAMiracle:

Did the priests guilty of those horrible actions towards children give the sacraments and communion? Why would God work the Miracle of converting the body and blood of Christ through pedophiles? Were those null and void or did God overlook the actions of the priest conduit to work his Miracles? Seriously, I am totally clueless about the sacraments in scripture. I know what they are - but I am confused on how scripture support them.

Forgive us as we forgive others

That is what we are asking in the Lords Prayer?

I am a former Baptist and now I am a Catholic, and I have the most personal relationship with Christ that I have ever had.

I struggle today on forgiving the Baptist Church, to me there is no difference in your Baptist church than a LDS church (no offense Mormons)

 

[JSmitty2005]

ExpectAMiracle:

Did the priests guilty of those horrible actions towards children give the sacraments and communion? Why would God work the Miracle of converting the body and blood of Christ through pedophiles? Were those null and void or did God overlook the actions of the priest conduit to work his Miracles? Seriously, I am totally clueless about the sacraments in scripture. I know what they are - but I am confused on how scripture support them.

Donatism was condemned a long time ago, my friend. A priest’s sinfulness does NOT alter the efficacy of the sacraments.

 

[Pjs2ejs]

ExpectAMiracle,

After reading your posts here, I can tell you that the only thing I can really do is to pray for you. To come on a Forum with the anger that you bring doesn’t seem healthy or Christian-like. In this one forum thread (entitled “Baptists can trace their history to NT Times”), I believe you have managed to mention every problem you have with the Catholic Church.

Now if you really want to learn about why the Church does the things they do (which I have to question from your replies), then be civil about it. Research the individual topics. Don’t just say, “Where in the Bible does it say this…” and then when you are given an answer, move on to another subject.

Thanks

 

[Texan_in_DC]

Correct me if i am wrong but it looks like expectamiracle is no longer with us, his profile now says resigned?

It looks like he just mixed it up and could not take a friendly talk about Christian history.