Baptists don't believe in Saints?

[aidanbradypop]

They, however, are not God, hence don’t possess all of His abilities, they are still human. Baptists interpret the pertinent scriptures as commanding living physical humans on earth from communicating directly with passed on spiritual humans in Heaven. Rightly or wrongly, that’s the view.

I have no doubt they, such as my beloved grandmothers, pray for us and ask for our good. That’s not the argument.

Just to add a bit to you. A Baptist, well informed, would and should not be against the idea of a person becoming a saint. I suppose they believe we all become saints once we pass to the other side. Their issue would be praying to the saint and wearing metals around your neck. I suppose their issue would also involve placing statues of a saint inside a church.

Those are probably just a few.

 

[Kliska]

Just to add a bit to you. A Baptist, well informed, would and should not be against the idea of a person becoming a saint. I suppose they believe we all become saints once we pass to the other side. Their issue would be praying to the saint and wearing metals around your neck. I suppose their issue would also involve placing statues of a saint inside a church.

Those are probably just a few.

True, and I’d even say most Baptists would believe all living believers are saints as well. It just doesn’t carry the same connotation as the title of “saint” or Saint in RCC belief.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I grew up in the SBC. They believed and taught the all people born again are saints and do not place a greater emphasis on those that have already passed. I think that I counted over 50 times that we (believers) are called saints in the New Testament. So those Baptist ladies should have no problem with saints if placed in that context.

 

[SteveVH]

I grew up in the SBC. They believed and taught the all people born again are saints and do not place a greater emphasis on those that have already passed. I think that I counted over 50 times that we (believers) are called saints in the New Testament. So those Baptist ladies should have no problem with saints if placed in that context.

But they do not believe that we are in communion with the saints in heaven, which is what I think is the thrust of this thread. There seems to be no consideration of the fact that we are changed when we enter heaven and are no longer subject to the weaknesses and limitations we experience here on earth.

 

[Thorolfr]

I’m not Baptist, but someone in my fam is a Baptist preacher; Baptists would believe

1. All believers are saints, those living on earth and also those in Heaven
2. We can, and should, hold up certain people as models of faith
3. We can, and should, pray for each other, but that the saints in Heaven are not to be spoken to in a way that is similar to the way we speak to each other here
4. That those that have passed away are just as much a part of the body of Christ as those living

I was raised Baptist and attended both Southern Baptist and Independent Baptist churches growing up and have lots of Baptist relatives and this sounds pretty accurate to me although I doubt that any Baptists would care if someone spoke to someone in heaven (like a departed relative perhaps). They just wouldn’t think that anyone in heaven had any special powers of intercession, could influence anything here on earth, could perform miracles or anything like that.

 

[Kliska]

But they do not believe that we are in communion with the saints in heaven, which is what I think is the thrust of this thread. There seems to be no consideration of the fact that we are changed when we enter heaven and are no longer subject to the weaknesses and limitations we experience here on earth.

I would say, it turned into the thrust of the thread, but I think the OP was being quite specific when saying the boss lady made a claim of not believing in saints. I do think it is a good example of how someone (boss lady) doesn’t want to “sound Catholic,” but that’s just my bet.

We all agree that the saints in Heaven have changed, they had to to be in Heaven, as they literally shed the mortal coil, and they do have an advantage (they’ve ran the race and have arrived with the Lord). However, the actual issue is that Baptists, and others, think there is a command to not “pray” or talk to those in Heaven the way we talk to living humans embodied on earth. That comes from differences in interpretation and application of scripture.

 

[aidanbradypop]

But they do not believe that we are in communion with the saints in heaven, which is what I think is the thrust of this thread. There seems to be no consideration of the fact that we are changed when we enter heaven and are no longer subject to the weaknesses and limitations we experience here on earth.

Steve it would depend on what is meant by communion. If by communion you mean that we, the departed and the living, are still members of the same Body then yes I am sure no Baptist would disagree. Well maybe a few lol.

I believe it would be hard to find a Christian that would disagree with the change once we enter the the Kingdom of God.

 

[SteveVH]

However, the actual issue is that Baptists, and others, think there is a command to not “pray” or talk to those in Heaven the way we talk to living humans embodied on earth. That comes from differences in interpretation and application of scripture.

And this would be due to their apparent confusion between asking for intercession and necromancy, correct?

 

[aidanbradypop]

And this would be due to their apparent confusion between asking for intercession and necromancy, correct?

Maybe lol

I pray the God through Jesus Christ for my petition. What makes St. Patrick more creditable than me getting on my knees and praying?

 

[Kliska]

And this would be due to their apparent confusion between asking for intercession and necromancy, correct?

From their perspective it would be the RCC’s confusion. And therein lies the difference.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve it would depend on what is meant by communion. If by communion you mean that we, the departed and the living, are still members of the same Body then yes I am sure no Baptist would disagree. Well maybe a few lol.

I believe it would be hard to find a Christian that would disagree with the change once we enter the the Kingdom of God.

By communion I mean that we have no separation as we are all one body in Christ. A part of the body that is separated from the rest of the body is dead. But God is the God of the living, not the dead. So why would one believe that we are one body and at the same time claim that we are separated with no means of communication or interaction?

The reasons I have heard all have to do with human limitations, (how can they hear our prayers, or how can they hear everyone’s prayers) as if there is no change in our abilities.

 

[aidanbradypop]

By communion I mean that we have no separation as we are all one body in Christ. A part of the body that is separated from the rest of the body is dead. But God is the God of the living, not the dead. So why would one believe that we are one body and at the same time claim that we are separated with no means of communication or interaction?

The reasons I have heard all have to do with human limitations, (how can they hear our prayers, or how can they hear everyone’s prayers) as if there is no change in our abilities.

If Patrick, Francis, Paul or any other departed wishes to pray for me then I greatly welcome such prayers. Isn’t it speculation by both parties on if they can hear our prayers?

 

[Techno2000]

They, however, are not God, hence don’t possess all of His abilities, they are still human.

whereby he hath granted unto us his precious and exceeding great promises; that through these ye may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world by lust.

2 Peter 1:4

 

[SteveVH]

If Patrick, Francis, Paul or any other departed wishes to pray for me then I greatly welcome such prayers. Isn’t it speculation by both parties on if they can hear our prayers?

No, not at all. We know they hear our prayers as evidenced by the multitude of miracles that occur through their intercession. It is how we know they are in heaven and are truly saints. It is also how we know they hear us.

Would you not agree that God uses men (and women) in his work of salvation here on earth? Would you not agree that we are to pray for each other and the whole world? If he uses us as his hands and feet here on earth, why would he not allow those who have been perfected and reside in heaven to also participate in his work of salvation?

 

[Kliska]

whereby he hath granted unto us his precious and exceeding great promises; that through these ye may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world by lust.

2 Peter 1:4

We don’t become God, and that is something we agree on. We never become God, we are always human, though changed.

 

[Techno2000]

We don’t become God, and that is something we agree on. We never become God, we are always human, though changed.

We are the children of God, and will have most of the Supernatural abilities as God, and changed just as Jesus was changed from human into spirit.

 

[aidanbradypop]

No, not at all. We know they hear our prayers as evidenced by the multitude of miracles that occur through their intercession. It is how we know they are in heaven and are truly saints. It is also how we know they hear us.

I have witnessed hundreds of miracles all done by prayers of the faithful living on earth. Those prayers were to God through Jesus.

It is not the saint that answers the prayer or performs the miracle. God does 100% of the work. Correct?

I honestly have no problem with someone wanting to ask a saint that has departed to pray for them to get better. I simply knock out the middle man, pray my petition and God’s Will is done.

Would you not agree that God uses men (and women) in his work of salvation here on earth? Would you not agree that we are to pray for each other and the whole world? If he uses us as his hands and feet here on earth, why would he not allow those who have been perfected and reside in heaven to also participate in his work of salvation?

By God’s grace, when I get there I shall ask.

God uses whom He wants, when He wants and how He wants.

 

[Kliska]

We are the children of God, and will have most of the Supernatural abilities as God, and changed just as Jesus was changed from human into spirit.

But again, that isn’t a point most Protestants and Catholics would disagree on, it’s not the crux of the issue under discussion.

 

[SteveVH]

From their perspective it would be the RCC’s confusion. And therein lies the difference.

The Catholic Church has well defined the difference between praying to saints and necromancy and strictly prohibits what we are accused of doing.

“All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to “unveil” the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.”
(CCC par 2116)

Necromancy is conjuring up the dead through wizards and mediums. The motivation is to manipulate the spiritual realm; to replace God’s power with one’s own power. This is completely contrary to asking one to take our prayers to God, just as we do here on earth.

 

[SteveVH]

I have witnessed hundreds of miracles all done by prayers of the faithful living on earth. Those prayers were to God through Jesus.

Have you never asked anyone here on earth to pray for you or someone you know that is in need? And if the prayer is answered have you ever thanked those who prayed on your behalf? If you have, why? Why don’t you just go through Jesus? Anyone who has ever asked for the prayers of another is doing exactly what we do when we pray to the saints.

It is not the saint that answers the prayer or performs the miracle. God does 100% of the work. Correct?

Correct, just as God does 100% of the work when we have others pray for us here on earth. But we believe those prayers are efficacious or we would not ask for them.

I honestly have no problem with someone wanting to ask a saint that has departed to pray for them to get better. I simply knock out the middle man, pray my petition and God’s Will is done.

That is certainly your option, as it is the option of all Catholics as well.

God uses whom He wants, when He wants and how He wants.

Thank you.

Peace.

Steve