Baptists, Evangelicals and the Baptismal Sacrament

[aidanbradypop]

I don’t see that happening. Why would someone use no formula at all? What would be the point of that? No minister is going to baptize someone without doing it in God’s name.

Sure it could happen. I have seen people being baptized by family members. So denominations do not require a minister to do it. My Aunt, who was Pentecostal was baptized in the bath tub by her father who was not a minister.

 

[stewstew03]

No disagreement there.

Great - then we agree on God’s grace in marriage…

 

[stewstew03]

Case by case basis. There would be a difference between someone who refuses baptism, and, say, someone who was baptized as an infant. We would consider the latter to be unbaptized, but only because they believe they are baptized. It would be disobedient and we would call them to be baptized. Someone who says, “I don’t need to be baptized, it’s unnecessary…etc,” , however, we would regard them as non-Christians because they are refusing a command of Christ.

I forgot to ask - do you believe Christian adults who have been baptized as infants are being disobedient by refusing a “believer’s baptism”?

 

[stewstew03]

…

The end result Baptists and Catholics are not that far off-- we both believe that all true Christians should be baptized with water when at all possible, and if not their salvation is called into question. But Baptists believe the saving baptism of the Holy Spirit has already occurred, where apparently Catholics believe the act of water baptism brings about baptism of the Holy Spirit. Baptists believe if one rejects water baptism then it is likely the person has not yet received baptism of the Holy Spirit (otherwise why would he reject?) and without baptism of the Holy Spirit the person is not a true Christian.

Brent

Hi Brent - I’ll ask you the same question I asked Gaelic:

Do you believe Christian adults who were baptized as infants are being disobedient by refusing a “believer’s baptism”? In other words, to baptized infants need to be “re-baptized” when they become older?

.

 

[ltwin]

Sure it could happen. I have seen people being baptized by family members. So denominations do not require a minister to do it. My Aunt, who was Pentecostal was baptized in the bath tub by her father who was not a minister.

I use minister in a very loose sense to mean the one administering the baptism. I believe any Christian has the authority to baptize. All they need is a basic knowledge of what baptism is and what it means.“Baptizing them in the name” is the entire point of baptism. I doubt someone who is as ignorant of baptism that they miss that will be taking it upon themselves to baptize anyone.

 

[ltwin]

Do you support, then, the Oneness Pentecostal’s right to have started their own church/denomination based on this belief? Apparently, to their way of thinking, this doctrine is of such great import that it warranted their starting their own church based on their interpretations of the Bible.

They didn’t originally start their own churches. For a while, there was this struggle between Trinitarians and Oneness. Some sought compromise. In the end, there was this general council and both the Trinitarian doctrine and baptismal formula prevailed. The Oneness were expelled and started their own churches.

Since I think Oneness theology is heresy, of course I don’t think it was right that they formed churches around this belief. However, given the nature of the conflict, division was inevitable.

I think, given the plethora of ostensibly Christian beliefs, each citing Scripture verses to support their views, one cannot say with any certainty, “No minister is going to baptize someone without doing it in God’s name.”

Let me say it this way: No minister or Christian with common sense and basic Bible knowledge will omit a baptismal formula. If someone is ignorant of what baptism looks like in the Bible, they shouldn’t be taking it upon themselves to baptize anyone anyway.

 

[PRmerger]

They didn’t originally start their own churches.

Irrelevant.

Since I think Oneness theology is heresy, of course I don’t think it was right that they formed churches around this belief. However, given the nature of the conflict, division was inevitable.

Right.

It does seem to be the fruit of the “Me, my Bible and the Holy Spirit” model of Scripture interpretation. :sad_yes:

Let me say it this way: No minister or Christian with common sense and basic Bible knowledge will omit a baptismal formula. If someone is ignorant of what baptism looks like in the Bible, they shouldn’t be taking it upon themselves to baptize anyone anyway.

Fair enough.

So there is, in your estimation, a correct way to baptize, and some people do it incorrectly?

 

[kirkdickinson]

Hi. If this is the case, can you point to me earliest time that Christians baptized infants? Or rather point to me (as a Baptised Catholic from infancy) when infant Baptism was “invented”?

Lastly, are you saying that it was only in the early 17th century people realized upon reading the Bible (which had been compiled back in the 4th Century) that infant Baptism was wrong?

Thanks.

MJ

I have not studied the history of infant baptism. I suspect that Infant baptism was a Pegan practice that crept into early Christianity. Quick search turned up this:
jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Doctrines/infant_baptism_exposed.htm

Not going to defend that guy’s writings, I have no idea? I can’t find infant baptism in the new testament though.

Just because man does something contrary to the word of God for a long time doesn’t make that activity correct.

 

[PRmerger]

Just because man does something contrary to the word of God for a long time doesn’t make that activity correct.

Is your argument that infant baptism isn’t found in Scripture, or that it is contrary to Scripture? Those are, of course, 2 different arguments. Which one is yours?

(For it to be the latter you would have to offer us some verses that state that infant baptism is forbidden. Chapter and verse, please.)

 

[aidanbradypop]

I have not studied the history of infant baptism. I suspect that Infant baptism was a Pegan practice that crept into early Christianity. Quick search turned up this:
jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Doctrines/infant_baptism_exposed.htm

Not going to defend that guy’s writings, I have no idea? I can’t find infant baptism in the new testament though.

Just because man does something contrary to the word of God for a long time doesn’t make that activity correct.

Are you seriously going to use a site that is on the hate group list? lol He is not to loving towards baptist either.

Just because man does something contrary to the word of God for a long time doesn’t make that activity correct

Next time you take the symbolic Communion, remember this.

 

[kirkdickinson]

Is your argument that infant baptism isn’t found in Scripture, or that it is contrary to Scripture? Those are, of course, 2 different arguments. Which one is yours?

(For it to be the latter you would have to offer us some verses that state that infant baptism is forbidden. Chapter and verse, please.)

Well, I didn’t say I saw that it was forbidden, I just don’t see it as the new testament model.

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

How can an Infant REPENT? What sins would an infant be seeking remission for?

 

[aidanbradypop]

Well, I didn’t say I saw that it was forbidden, I just don’t see it as the new testament model.

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

How can an Infant REPENT? What sins would an infant be seeking remission for?

Kirk,

Stop taking it out of context. Those were new converts and mostly adults. Entire families were baptized, not just the adults. If you really want to study it then I suggest this site rather than a hate group site.

scripturecatholic.com/baptism.html

 

[ltwin]

So there is, in your estimation, a correct way to baptize, and some people do it incorrectly?

Baptism in the Bible has at least two characteristics: it is done in the name of God (Matt. 28:19 and Acts 2) and with water.

It is not difficult, but it does require basic Christian knowledge.

 

[PRmerger]

Well, I didn’t say I saw that it was forbidden, I just don’t see it as the new testament model.

Ah. So your argument is not that it is CONTRARY to Scripture, but that it’s not found in the Bible.

Of course, that model of “All things we do and believe must be found in the Bible” is, curiously, also not found in the Bible…

so are you not guilty of the same thing you accuse Catholics of?

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

How can an Infant REPENT? What sins would an infant be seeking remission for?

His parents act as his proxy and their repentance is required.

 

[PRmerger]

Baptism in the Bible has at least two characteristics: it is done in the name of God (Matt. 28:19 and Acts 2) and with water.

It is not difficult, but it does require basic Christian knowledge.

And yet, ltwin, there are dozens and dozens of Christian denominations which claim that there are more than 2 characteristics.

Some claim, from reading the same Scriptures you have, that it must be done by immersion.
Some claim that it must be done in a river.
Some claim that it is an ordinance.
Some claim that it must be done in Jesus’ name.
Some claim that it must be done past the age of reason.
Some claim it must be done by a Christian minister.

etc etc etc.

How is it that we should trust your (fallible) judgement of what are the 2 characteristics of baptism that are required, vs another person’s interpretation?

 

[kirkdickinson]

Are you seriously going to use a site that is on the hate group list?

Never been on that site before today. Didn’t see any hate there, did see alot of strong opinion on doctrinal issues. I think “Hate Group” is a term that is thrown around so easily now days that it is becoming meaningless.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Never been on that site before today. Didn’t see any hate there, did see alot of strong opinion on doctrinal issues. I think “Hate Group” is a term that is thrown around so easily now days that it is becoming meaningless.

Ohhh Kirk…If he had a choice word for Baptist I am sure you attitude would change.

 

[ltwin]

And yet, ltwin, there are dozens and dozens of Christian denominations which claim that there are more than 2 characteristics.

Some claim, from reading the same Scriptures you have, that it must be done by immersion.
Some claim that it must be done in a river.
Some claim that it is an ordinance.
Some claim that it must be done in Jesus’ name.
Some claim that it must be done past the age of reason.
Some claim it must be done by a Christian minister.

etc etc etc.

How is it that we should trust your (fallible) judgement of what are the 2 characteristics of baptism that are required, vs another person’s interpretation?

Maybe you should read more carefully. As you can see, I used the word “at least.” I think anyone can agree that the minimum characteristic of a Christian baptism is that it involve water and that it be done in the name of the God that Christians worship.

If I jump in my pool, for example, I could technically say I was baptized in the sense that I got really wet. However, since God was not even mentioned it can hardly be called a baptism in any religious sense. Alternatively, I could pretend to throw imaginary water on someone and recite the baptismal formula but since I didn’t use any actual water it would be fantasy for me to say that a baptism took place.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Never been on that site before today. Didn’t see any hate there, did see alot of strong opinion on doctrinal issues. I think “Hate Group” is a term that is thrown around so easily now days that it is becoming meaningless.

So he states that these are false religions within Christianity.

Church of Christ
Episcopal Church
Greek Eastern Orthodox
Lutherans
Pentecostal / Charismatic
Roman Catholicism
Russian Orthodox
Seventh-Day Adventist
Unitarian Universalism
United Church of Christ

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

Great - then we agree on God’s grace in marriage…

No, we don’t. We agree it’s a permanent relationship between the couple and that it is a covenant that God ratifies and honors. The root disagreement is a disagreement over what grace is.