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stewstew03
Guest
Yes, this is actually more helpful. I’ll take a look this afternoon…
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Anna_Scott
Guest
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stewstew03
Guest
Basically, what this guy Todd Braye (who lets his readers know he has a bachelors in music, and a masters in divinity) says is that baptism is a public display of one’s faith (“To be baptized is to be publically, and intimately, identified with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ”).
The site is also riddled with anti-Catholic sentiment, such as these gems:
The Catholic Church is a cult, like Mormonism and JWs.
“I cautioned you to beware of those who believe that the word of God is incomplete. This is the stuff that the cults are made of. Jehovah’s Witnesses, Roman Catholic Church, and Mormonism all function off the premise that God’s word is not sufficient—that foundational prophecy continues today.”
And we Catholics worship Mary, etc.:
“How is it that the Catholic church could encourage the worship of Mary, prayer to saints, and the weekly recrucifixion of Jesus Christ? Because they believe in the continuation of foundational prophecy. They do not believe that the Scriptures are sufficient standard of all belief and practice. They also look to church tradition, Papal infallibility, and the authority of the RCC. They read and reinterpret the Scriptures in light of these extra teachings that they have received outside the word of God.”
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stewstew03
Guest
True - but the primary character of the eucharistic adoration is not public identification but eternal life through Jesus Christ. If someone is partaking the body/blood of Christ just to be seen doing it, I would caution them to read 1 Cor 11:27.
[BIBLEDRB]John 6:53[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Cor 11:27[/BIBLEDRB]
You (and this Todd Braye fellow) seem to be saying that the primary character of baptism is to be seen doing it, to publicly identify one’s self as a Christian, which, to borrow Mr. Braye’s language, is something “outside the Word of God.”
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Gaelic_Bard
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Gaelic_Bard
Guest
I don’t think that it follows that because it is an identification with Christ it is, therefore, a public testimonynof faith. That element is present. Again, that’s present with any demonstration of Christianity.
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stewstew03
Guest
But it’s not just an identification with Christ - it’s a public identification with Christ.
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Gaelic_Bard
Guest
Yes…but aside from prayer most Christian acts are. Though you believe baptism regenerates, you wouldn’t reduce the public baptism of an adult convert to Catholicism from Islam as only a public profession of faith.
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willitmatter
Guest
hello this might give you more understandingThanks for engaging, Gaelic. It seems others have dropped off the thread…
I’m still struggling with this idea that a command from God can have no bearing on one’s soul. Can you help me out with that? Are there any other Commands that we can ignore with impunity?
Conversation started March 19
3:37pm
Cat Answer
A Teaching on M ikvah/Immersion/Baptism
It simply began by wanting to re-familiarize myself with what I always considered to be one of the first acts of obedience after a new Believer accepts Messiah into their spiritual heart —the act of baptism. I felt that this task should be easy enough to refresh myself during a quiet day of Shabbat! But from the beginning of settling into my spiritual feeding, what I thought I knew began to unravel itself, and what I thought I understood became only a shadow of what should be known. The teaching of baptism has haphazardly been taught throughout many generations of the Church Age. But Yahweh, in His love and concern for this last Church Period, is restoring those who deeply seek out His pure ways of worship. Ahhhh . . . how I love His timely teachings! It began in Hebrews, where I read:
Heb 6:1-3
1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.
What Yahweh permitted on this day was the intrigue that caught my eye concerning the wording of verse two which states, “the doctrine of baptisms.”
e Baptism(s)! —Plural!
At that point a flood of other verses started to come into my head.
Luke 3:16
16 John (the baptizer) answered, saying to all, "I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
1 Cor 12:13
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body — whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free — and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
In those two verses alone, it speaks of four types of baptisms:
e water
e the Holy Spirit
e fire
e identification of Yeshua within the body of Believers
I always considered baptism a one-time event in life. But now I am realizing that there are different baptisms, indeed! Just as Hebrews 6:2 has now revealed in “the doctrine of baptisms.”
“The mikvah/ritual bath was of great importance to the first century Jew. It was understood that if a community or village had only enough money for a synagogue or a mikvah, the mikvah would be built first. The Torah speaks of numerous things that make a person Tomeh/ritually unclean, and a number of processes of purification. The one act required in all purification processes was immersion in the mikvah.
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willitmatter
Guest
In Hebrews 6:2, the Amplified version reads just a bit different referring “the doctrine of baptisms” as being “ teachings about purifying;” having the word ‘teachings’ pluralized. Along with ‘teachings’ was the word, ‘purifying,’ which brought together for me where I needed to begin. For everything taught in the New Covenant will and should have its foundation laid within the Old.
I began my search by looking up all the verses that I could find pertaining to baptism and purification. I then remembered that a writing had already been done for another study on the historical aspect of purification, so I re-read what had been put together years ago. Once I felt satisfied that I could go no further, I then turned my attention toward other Believers who, like myself, have searched this matter out before me.
My first stop was with Michael Rood, a Messianic evangelist, who has done a three-part series of what he collectively calls, “The Mikvah - Doctrine of Baptisms.” His teaching included six types of mikvah-ings:
e Purification
e Repentance
e Identification with Yeshua
e Spirit
e Fire
e Suffering
Yet, I clearly see a seventh that was not mentioned in his teaching: Sanctification
Having had the word mikvah previously introduced in my life, the element that there were many different types took me off guard and still had me a bit puzzled after completing the teaching from Michael Rood. For me, a mikvah was the contained place that pooled the water; whereas, Michael Rood used the word ‘mikvah’ as also the act of being mikvah(ed). I came to accept it to
be similar to the wording that we baptize in a baptismal. I had not ever given thought of the place and the act of mikvah being so similarly used, but it simply became a matter of wording within his teaching. This is not to criticize, but to give a bit of explanation to anyone else researching water purification from the Old Covenant and the elements of ‘types’ that are found within the New Covenant.
Because of the teaching from Michael Rood, a door was opened for me to walk through and the understanding was astounding. Very briefly, let me share with you what was gathered directly from his teaching; along with what I understood prior to this research. The act of Mikvah, as related in the first three, have everything to do with the covering over with water:
e Purification
e Repentant obedience; as in the immersion spoken of in Matthew 28
e Identifying with Messiah through His act of burial and resurrection into a new life
2
The final four have to do with our spiritual walk as we are covered over, immersed, and engulfed with the Holy Spirit sent from both, the Father and the Son! They are:
e Receiving the Holy Spirit; sealing each Believer for the day of redemption
e Being Spirit-filled by holy fire through His teachings, fruit-bearing, and gifts
e Sufferings; as we learn His ways by laying down our own self-will
e Sanctification; being set apart from this world; walking a Spirit-filled life
haydid.org/ledevar.htm
I began my search by looking up all the verses that I could find pertaining to baptism and purification. I then remembered that a writing had already been done for another study on the historical aspect of purification, so I re-read what had been put together years ago. Once I felt satisfied that I could go no further, I then turned my attention toward other Believers who, like myself, have searched this matter out before me.
My first stop was with Michael Rood, a Messianic evangelist, who has done a three-part series of what he collectively calls, “The Mikvah - Doctrine of Baptisms.” His teaching included six types of mikvah-ings:
e Purification
e Repentance
e Identification with Yeshua
e Spirit
e Fire
e Suffering
Yet, I clearly see a seventh that was not mentioned in his teaching: Sanctification
Having had the word mikvah previously introduced in my life, the element that there were many different types took me off guard and still had me a bit puzzled after completing the teaching from Michael Rood. For me, a mikvah was the contained place that pooled the water; whereas, Michael Rood used the word ‘mikvah’ as also the act of being mikvah(ed). I came to accept it to
be similar to the wording that we baptize in a baptismal. I had not ever given thought of the place and the act of mikvah being so similarly used, but it simply became a matter of wording within his teaching. This is not to criticize, but to give a bit of explanation to anyone else researching water purification from the Old Covenant and the elements of ‘types’ that are found within the New Covenant.
Because of the teaching from Michael Rood, a door was opened for me to walk through and the understanding was astounding. Very briefly, let me share with you what was gathered directly from his teaching; along with what I understood prior to this research. The act of Mikvah, as related in the first three, have everything to do with the covering over with water:
e Purification
e Repentant obedience; as in the immersion spoken of in Matthew 28
e Identifying with Messiah through His act of burial and resurrection into a new life
2
The final four have to do with our spiritual walk as we are covered over, immersed, and engulfed with the Holy Spirit sent from both, the Father and the Son! They are:
e Receiving the Holy Spirit; sealing each Believer for the day of redemption
e Being Spirit-filled by holy fire through His teachings, fruit-bearing, and gifts
e Sufferings; as we learn His ways by laying down our own self-will
e Sanctification; being set apart from this world; walking a Spirit-filled life
Code:
Introduction to Mikvah/Immersion
Part 1: Immersion for Ritual Purity
Part II: Immersion in the Holy Temple
Part III: Customs of Immersion
Part IV: Immersion Into Messiah
Part V: A Mikvah/Immersion Service
Part VI: The complete book in one file for downloading
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
What does being born of water mean? And how can we be born again of water?
What does being born of spirit mean? And how can we be born again of spirit?
And why are the words: Truly, truly in there?
And why is the imperative: unless in there?
Further:
Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
This is a command, there is no symbolism anywhere. How can some people make anything else out of this???
I just can’t comprehend it :banghead:
What does being born of water mean? And how can we be born again of water?
What does being born of spirit mean? And how can we be born again of spirit?
And why are the words: Truly, truly in there?
And why is the imperative: unless in there?
Further:
Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
This is a command, there is no symbolism anywhere. How can some people make anything else out of this???
I just can’t comprehend it :banghead:
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brentAL
Guest
I have never felt there is a ritualistic sinner’s prayer that automatically saves a person. Saying a particular prayer does not save a person. It is all about the heart (the spirit), which our good works later prove. Jesus said we will know the true Christians by their fruit. There are all kinds of people attending Baptist, Methodist and Catholic churches who will not go to Heaven. Jesus said that will be many to whom he will say, “I never knew you.” They may have said a sinner’s prayer, they may have been baptized as a baby by a Catholic priest or baptized in a Baptist church, but there are no magic words or a magic ritual. Jesus said the time had come when we worship in spirit and in truth. And the truth is in the faith that we have in Christ Jesus, that we trust in him and not of our works to enter Heaven. That he died for our sins, and rose again on the third day. Then our works will demonstrate that we do in fact have that faith and belief in him. Without the works, there is no faith because works are a natural product of genuine faith in Christ Jesus.
The thief on the cross is a great example. He didn’t say, “Jesus, I am lost. I repent of my sins, please enter my heart and be Lord of my life.” He just said “Remember me when you come into your kingdom.” But he was saved. He also would have been saved had he said the sinner’s prayer I just mentioned. The test was his spirit- his internal belief in the eternal Christ. He worshiped right there on the cross in spirit and in truth. He didn’t go to a temple, or a church. He was not baptized. He simply worshiped in spirit and in truth.
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aidanbradypop
Guest
We really have no clue if he went to Temple or was baptized, but we do know for sure that while hanging beside Christ, he asked Christ to remember him. Christ granted the man his request. How beautiful is that?
When I was Southern Baptist, many believed in OSAS and works were of no issue. Sadly we read in Scripture that they do matter. Glad to see you state as much.
We are called to be faithful and acts of charity. I did a charitable act by baptizing my two sons when they were infants. I gave them to God just as the Blessed Mother did with Christ. By the water, they were washed clean of original sin and allowed to be born again in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit throught their water baptism. As a faithful Catholic and follower of Christ, I will raise them to be just and moral boys with hope that they carry those values on to manhood.
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4Squarebaby
Guest
And this is where the Baptist and Evangelics meet, the exception being many Evangelical organizations do not require a believer’s baptism by immersion before accepting a full member
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Anna_Scott
Guest
Brent and everyone,
Will be a while before I get back to the discussion. Took a hard fall and have a concussion and other injuries. Woman vs. concrete. I think the concrete got the best of me.
Peace and blessings to all,
Anna
Will be a while before I get back to the discussion. Took a hard fall and have a concussion and other injuries. Woman vs. concrete. I think the concrete got the best of me.
Peace and blessings to all,
Anna
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Gaelic_Bard
Guest
Prayers for your recovery, Anna.Brent and everyone,
Will be a while before I get back to the discussion. Took a hard fall and have a concussion and other injuries. Woman vs. concrete. I think the concrete got the best of me.
Peace and blessings to all,
Anna
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PRmerger
Guest
Yipes! Mental rest is definitely a must after a concussion!Brent and everyone,
Will be a while before I get back to the discussion. Took a hard fall and have a concussion and other injuries. Woman vs. concrete. I think the concrete got the best of me.
Peace and blessings to all,
Anna
God’s blessings for a speedy recovery!
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
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adf417
Guest
May the healing touch of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you Anna!Brent and everyone,
Will be a while before I get back to the discussion. Took a hard fall and have a concussion and other injuries. Woman vs. concrete. I think the concrete got the best of me.
Peace and blessings to all,
Anna
Hope you are back with us soon!
M
Miriam1947
Guest
Anna, prayers for your rapid healing.
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