Baptists & Salvation - Inaugurated Eschatology

[taylormcbee]

Here was my problem with the SBC how they think that you get saved by saying a prayer and that is it, and there is no need for the sacraments, however over half of the people that “pray that Prayer” go out and sin and think they are “saved” forever , (That is not in the bible!) They think they know the bible but what the bible says is to work out your salvation with fear and trembling (saint Paul said it i am not sure in what epistle though)
God Bless You

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . .What he was essentially saying in his sermon was - yes, you’ve been saved (past event), but you must walk with God (present event) in order to be saved (future event); hence, the comparison to “inaugurated eschatology.” Is what he said entirely different than the Catholic position? . . .

The Southern Baptist minister you are quoting is in the SBC I used to attend (what are the odds?) His predecessor, who was the Senior Pastor from 1978-2005, would never have taught any such thing. Preaching against the security of the believer is against the core beliefs of the Southern Baptist Church/Convention.

If you look under “Our Beliefs” on the same website, as the pastor’s sermon you are quoting, it states,

"Salvation

We believe that Jesus, through His death on the cross, provided salvation for all. However, to receive salvation one must repent of sin and trust Jesus Christ alone. The true believer is eternally secure and cannot lose his salvation. He may, however, lose his joy by sin and bring the loving discipline of the Father upon himself.

All who have received Christ will at death depart to be with Christ in their spirits and at Christ’s return receive a new body which will be like His glorious body." Link: championforest.org/about/beliefs/

So, if this pastor is saying that one can lose their salvation; he is preaching against the beliefs posted on the website of his church, and against the Baptist Faith and Message, which states, “Salvation involves the redemption of the whole man, and is offered freely to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, who by His own blood obtained eternal redemption for the believer.” Link: sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp#i

Peace,
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . .For a Baptist, salvation is not a process. Salvation occurs in a moment as a result of praying the Sinner’s Prayer and can never be lost. . . .

. . .That’s not entirely true Anna. The Southern Baptist – well, at least at the SBC Pastor that leads the church near my home – would disagree with you, and has even said as much.

Stew,
A Southern Baptist is expected to adhere to The Baptist Faith and Message and the Southern Baptist Convention’s beliefs regarding salvation. The Sinner’s Prayer is the way to salvation according to the Southern Baptist Convention.

Keep in mind that the Southern Baptist Convention and the Southern Baptist Church are one and the same.

However, there is a trend among some Southern Baptists pastors and theologians to question some long held beliefs of the Southern Baptist Church/Southern Baptist Convention. For as long as I can remember, the Sinner’s Prayer was the way to salvation according to the SBC. Some Baptists are beginning to question this and other things. Perhaps this pastor is one of them. I think this is partly why we are seeing so many non-denominational Churches. In fact the son of the former senior pastor, at the church you are referencing, started a non-denominational church of his own.

Peace,
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Isn’t there some variance in Southern Baptist beliefs? As I understand it, SBC churches are completely independent, but have to maintain certain core beliefs.

They are expected to adhere to The Baptist Faith and Message.
Link: sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp#i

But not all SB’s are happy about the current BFM:
An Analysis of the Baptist Faith and Message 2000 by Russell Dilday (April 2001)
Link: centerforbaptiststudies.org/hotissues/dildayfm2000.htm

. . . .Would it be possible for one SBC church to be OSAS and another to teach that salvation could be lost?

Not if they want to remain in the Southern Baptist Convention, which is one and the same as the Southern Baptist Church.

Anna

 

[IggyAntiochus]

As you know the SBC doesn’t have a concept, per se, of mortal sin (they would make the point that ALL sin is sin). Viewed through the SBC lens, when a believer commits a “mortal sin” (e.g., murder) he or she is still expected to repent and turn away. If not, then (through the lens of the SBC) he or she was never a “true believer.” It’s sorta like Monday morning quarterbacking, but the concept is still the same.

Yes, but this is still a completely different understanding of salvation than the Roman Catholic viewpoint. It may work out to a similar scenario for practical reasons (that is, some obedience to God’s law is a necessary part of salvation), but not when exploring it at a deeper theological level. The Baptist would say that the individual was never justified in God’s sight. The Roman Catholic would say he lost his justification and turned away from the grace of his baptism.

I understand. As I said in my previous response to you, please provide documentation/evidence of your claims about SBC beliefs. If you were a Southern Baptist, I would take your words at face value. Given that you’re not…

 

[Anna_Scott]

Yes, but this is still a completely different understanding of salvation than the Roman Catholic viewpoint. It may work out to a similar scenario for practical reasons (that is, some obedience to God’s law is a necessary part of salvation), but not when exploring it at a deeper theological level. The Baptist would say that the individual was never justified in God’s sight. The Roman Catholic would say he lost his justification and turned away from the grace of his baptism. . .

IggyAntiochus,

Exactly right. Though I do give stewstew03 credit for at least looking for common ground.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . .As a former SBC-follower, my firm belief is that Southern Baptists actually subscribe to many Catholic beliefs (or at the very least are much closer to Catholic doctrine than Reformed doctrine), but out of spite for “Rome,” Baptists desperately cling to the Reformation in an effort to distance themselves from their Catholic brethren.

Stew,
Would you list the many SB beliefs that are closer to Catholic doctrine than Reformed doctrine?

Anna

 

[stewstew03]

Stew,
Would you list the many SB beliefs that are closer to Catholic doctrine than Reformed doctrine?

Anna

On second thought, “many” was an overstatement. (Note to Anna: please stop pointing out those occurrences when I overstate my point!)

Bottom line: the sermon delivered by this SBC pastor was a very “Catholic” sermon… though I doubt he (or any of his congregants) would acknowledge it.

 

[stewstew03]

Stew,
A Southern Baptist is expected to adhere to The Baptist Faith and Message and the Southern Baptist Convention’s beliefs regarding salvation. The Sinner’s Prayer is the way to salvation according to the Southern Baptist Convention.

Keep in mind that the Southern Baptist Convention and the Southern Baptist Church are one and the same.

However, there is a trend among some Southern Baptists pastors and theologians to question some long held beliefs of the Southern Baptist Church/Southern Baptist Convention. For as long as I can remember, the Sinner’s Prayer was the way to salvation according to the SBC. Some Baptists are beginning to question this and other things. Perhaps this pastor is one of them. I think this is partly why we are seeing so many non-denominational Churches. In fact the son of the former senior pastor, at the church you are referencing, started a non-denominational church of his own.

Peace,
Anna

Perhaps we have an SBC pastor who has “gone rogue” here in NW Houston…

 

[Anna_Scott]

Perhaps we have an SBC pastor who has “gone rogue” here in NW Houston…

stewstew03,
Keep in mind I was not able to hear the sermon you were quoting. I did run in to a friend awhile back who said she left that particular church, because she didn’t like the direction it was taking. She didn’t give me any specifics. So, I don’t really know what this particular pastor is teaching now.

Anna

 

[stewstew03]

stewstew03,
Keep in mind I was not able to hear the sermon you were quoting. I did run in to a friend awhile back who said she left that particular church, because she didn’t like the direction it was taking. She didn’t give me any specifics. So, I don’t really know what this particular pastor is teaching now.

Anna

Well, I can only tell you that Pastor Fleming is not a Calvinist. I actually correspond with him on occasion because although he is not a Calvinist, on occasion he reveals his anti-Catholic prejudices and I have to call him on it…

 

[Anna_Scott]

On second thought, “many” was an overstatement. (Note to Anna: please stop pointing out those occurrences when I overstate my point!)

I doubt I can promise that.
stewstew03;9105904:

Bottom line: the sermon delivered by this SBC pastor was a very “Catholic” sermon… though I doubt he (or any of his congregants) would acknowledge it.

Actually, the congregants would probably try to lead a Catholic to salvation, if given the chance to proselytize.

Peace,
Anna

 

[stewstew03]

I doubt I can promise that.

Booooo!

Actually, the congregants would probably try to lead a Catholic to salvation, if given the chance to proselytize.

Oh, I can promise you that!

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . .(Note to Anna: please stop pointing out those occurrences when I overstate my point!)
Anna Scott;9106005:

I doubt I can promise that.

Booooo!

This makes me think of my son coming home from grade school with a note from his teacher outlining the number of times he had to sign the “conduct book.” Of course as a Mom, I was very concerned. When I asked my son about it, he said, “Mom. . .signing the conduct book is who I am.” Not exactly the words a mother wants to hear. lol. This is the long way of saying, pointing out “those occurrences” (such as in your posts) is part of who I am–at least in an online debate/discussion. I just can’t seem to help myself. Maybe I need to sign the “forum conduct book.”

Peace,
Anna

 

[IggyAntiochus]

Actually, the congregants would probably try to lead a Catholic to salvation, if given the chance to proselytize.

Peace,
Anna

Baptists have a tendency to try to lead every non-Baptist to salvation (and even some other Baptists who don’t belong to their Baptist church body lol)

 

[Anna_Scott]

Baptists have a tendency to try to lead every non-Baptist to salvation (and even some other Baptists who don’t belong to their Baptist church body lol)

IggyAntiochus,
True.

Sometimes they convince Baptized members of their own congregation that they really weren’t “saved/born again” when they thought they were, and they Baptize them again after they are really and truly “born again.”…

Anna

 

[IggyAntiochus]

IggyAntiochus,
True.

Sometimes they convince Baptized members of their own congregation that they really weren’t “saved/born again” when they thought they were, and they Baptize them again after they are really and truly “born again.”…

Anna

Yes. This is a horible consequence of a system of salvation divorced from the sacraments of Christ. There is, frankly, no objective standard of determining your standing with the Lord in reformed church theology (both Baptist and non-Baptist). When preaching the gospel, evangelical churches are very good of speaking of the free gift of grace through faith in Christ. Unfortunately, however, there is no way to determine that you have received that gift other than your own internal, subjective feelings.

Believe me, I, and countless others within revivalistic churches have suffered from a conscience which cannot find any rest in Christ because we did not know whether we were objectively benefitting from His sacrifice.

It’s even worse in Calvinistic reformed churches where Christ’s atonement is seen as pertaining only to the elect…which, aside from subjective faith, now also adds an even more subjective predestination which we have no way of determining other than our own feelings.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Yes. This is a horible consequence of a system of salvation divorced from the sacraments of Christ. There is, frankly, no objective standard of determining your standing with the Lord in reformed church theology (both Baptist and non-Baptist). When preaching the gospel, evangelical churches are very good of speaking of the free gift of grace through faith in Christ. Unfortunately, however, there is no way to determine that you have received that gift other than your own internal, subjective feelings.

Believe me, I, and countless others within revivalistic churches have suffered from a conscience which cannot find any rest in Christ because we did not know whether we were objectively benefitting from His sacrifice.

It’s even worse in Calvinistic reformed churches where Christ’s atonement is seen as pertaining only to the elect…which, aside from subjective faith, now also adds an even more subjective predestination which we have no way of determining other than our own feelings.

IggyAntiochus,

Very insightful commentary. And I certainly identify with this struggle. Yet, on the flip side, many cling to belief in the “security of the believer” and demonstrate no struggle at all. The attitude is I’m saved. That’s it. Nothing more to worry about.

However, the belief that one can actually lose salvation, which I have come to believe, presents a new set of anxieties. I worry about salvation of others (and myself) far more than I did as a Baptist clinging to the “security of the believer” doctrine.

I identify with Paul saying, “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” I’ve definitely got the fear and trembling part down. It’s salvation that concerns me.

Anna

 

[IggyAntiochus]

IggyAntiochus,

Very insightful commentary. And I certainly identify with this struggle. Yet, on the flip side, many cling to belief in the “security of the believer” and demonstrate no struggle at all. The attitude is I’m saved. That’s it. Nothing more to worry about.

However, the belief that one can actually lose salvation, which I have come to believe, presents a new set of anxieties. I worry about salvation of others (and myself) far more than I did as a Baptist clinging to the “security of the believer” doctrine.

I identify with Paul saying, “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” I’ve definitely got the fear and trembling part down. It’s salvation that concerns me.

Anna

The possibility of losing our justification can cause problems spiritually. It can sometimes be a healthy anxiety because it makes us more vigilant to repent when we’ve sinned and seek His forgiveness. In such cases where anxiety leads to despair or a troubled conscience, Christ must be placarded before our eyes as the one who has reconciled us to God fully, and our efforts and failings can neither add or subtract from His mercy. I think it is not so much losing our salvation that causes the worry, but many times that when we believe it is us that must be the ones to restore ourselves before God, it compounds it.

 

[CopticChristian]

I recently listened to a local Southern Baptist pastor describe salvation as akin to “inaugurated eschatology.” His point was that although we are already justified by the blood of Christ, the born-again believer must continue to walk with God and serve in obedience to Him. Is this any different than the Catholic position?

Where Southern Baptists say that we may differ is on the issue of whether we can lose our salvation. The faithful SBC-follower claims we can’t. But at the same time, they question the salvation of those who have received Christ and yet continue to backslide in their sin (hence the suspicion of Catholics - who say they are Christians, but yet worship idols, worship Mary, etc.). The Catholic would say those who continue to sin are separated from God. The SBC-follower would say those who continue to sin lose their joy and bring discipline upon themselves. Is there really a difference here? If someone loses their joy, are they not separated from God?

Isn’t this just semantics?

As a former SBC-follower, my firm belief is that Southern Baptists actually subscribe to many Catholic beliefs (or at the very least are much closer to Catholic doctrine than Reformed doctrine), but out of spite for “Rome,” Baptists desperately cling to the Reformation in an effort to distance themselves from their Catholic brethren.

The humor in this whole thing is “getting saved”…OK now you got saved…

Do you got to a Bible Study? Well I am saved…why do I need to do that?
Do you go to a Bible believing Church? Well I just got saved, aren’t I saved?

Well you may be in Fellowship but you don’t have a relationship!!! SBC say what? Now listen here, I got saved, you told me that I could know if I was going to heaven, and all I had to do was accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. What is this Fellowship/Relationship stuff. This kinda sounds like bait and switch…aren’t I just saved?

Well now, you gotta go to Bible study, Bible believing Church, then you gotta get involved be an elder, then of course there is Wednesday Church and the Potluck on Friday. Now the mens group meets on Friday…wait a minute…you didn’t tell me nothin about this when you told me that I could go to heaven and get saved…well then maybe you’re not saved…SBC say what?