Baptists & Salvation - Inaugurated Eschatology

[Anna_Scott]

The possibility of losing our justification can cause problems spiritually. It can sometimes be a healthy anxiety because it makes us more vigilant to repent when we’ve sinned and seek His forgiveness. In such cases where anxiety leads to despair or a troubled conscience, Christ must be placarded before our eyes as the one who has reconciled us to God fully, and our efforts and failings can neither add or subtract from His mercy. I think it is not so much losing our salvation that causes the worry, but many times that when we believe it is us that must be the ones to restore ourselves before God, it compounds it.

IggyAntiochus,

I think you are right. Also, when I think of the unimaginable Sacrifice of our Lord, it feels terrible to think I have failed Him. I realize that I cannot save myself; and as you said, when we are in a place of despair, we must see Christ as the one who has reconciled us to God. I think this very issue makes clear how vital confession and partaking of the Holy Eucharist are in our journey as Christians. This is something I never understood in my years as a Southern Baptist.

Peace,
Anna

 

[IggyAntiochus]

The humor in this whole thing is “getting saved”…OK now you got saved…

Do you got to a Bible Study? Well I am saved…why do I need to do that?
Do you go to a Bible believing Church? Well I just got saved, aren’t I saved?

Well you may be in Fellowship but you don’t have a relationship!!! SBC say what? Now listen here, I got saved, you told me that I could know if I was going to heaven, and all I had to do was accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. What is this Fellowship/Relationship stuff. This kinda sounds like bait and switch…aren’t I just saved?

Well now, you gotta go to Bible study, Bible believing Church, then you gotta get involved be an elder, then of course there is Wednesday Church and the Potluck on Friday. Now the mens group meets on Friday…wait a minute…you didn’t tell me nothin about this when you told me that I could go to heaven and get saved…well then maybe you’re not saved…SBC say what?

You’re absolutely spot on in this, Coptic. When you’re an unbeliever, evangelicals will preach much about grace, mercy, how our works don’t save us, etc, then when you do the altar call thing and sign the card saying you accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior, prepare for the rest of your Christian life to be nothing but law, law, law, legalism, fundamentalism, and doing stuff to make sure you’re really saved.

 

[IggyAntiochus]

IggyAntiochus,

I think you are right. Also, when I think of the unimaginable Sacrifice of our Lord, it feels terrible to think I have failed Him. I realize that I cannot save myself; and as you said, when we are in a place of despair, we must see Christ as the one who has reconciled us to God. I think this very issue makes clear how vital confession and partaking of the Holy Eucharist are in our journey as Christians. This is something I never understood in my years as a Southern Baptist.

Peace,
Anna

Yes. In my years in evangelicalism, there was never any assurance that I was saved. I heard week after week that if I REALLY believed, I was secure in my salvation. Of course, there was never any assurance that I really believed, because I was quite aware of the umpteen hundreds of sins I had committed on any given day. Ultimately, I had to have faith in my faith. For all of the criticism that Baptists lay on Rome for teaching works salvation, reformed church teaching is far more insidious. As you said, I’m sure there are some that don’t wrestle with whether they’re really saved or not, however, they are simply ignoring the fact that their faith being the measure of whether they are right with God or not is much more uncertain than works salvation. Oddly enough, the only measuring stick they have to determine if they really believe is their works.

At least Rome has Baptism, the Supper, absolution. Concrete, tangible means by which we know that Christ has promised to save us. When those words of absolution bounce off of your ear drums, when you remember your incorporation into the very name of God in Holy Baptism, when you taste the wine and chew on the bread that is the flesh of Christ, you know that your salvation is outside of yourself, not dependent on your performance but on the surety of Christ’s promise to save you.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Yes. In my years in evangelicalism, there was never any assurance that I was saved. I heard week after week that if I REALLY believed, I was secure in my salvation. Of course, there was never any assurance that I really believed, because I was quite aware of the umpteen hundreds of sins I had committed on any given day. Ultimately, I had to have faith in my faith. For all of the criticism that Baptists lay on Rome for teaching works salvation, reformed church teaching is far more insidious. As you said, I’m sure there are some that don’t wrestle with whether they’re really saved or not, however, they are simply ignoring the fact that their faith being the measure of whether they are right with God or not is much more uncertain than works salvation. Oddly enough, the only measuring stick they have to determine if they really believe is their works.

At least Rome has Baptism, the Supper, absolution. Concrete, tangible means by which we know that Christ has promised to save us. When those words of absolution bounce off of your ear drums, when you remember your incorporation into the very name of God in Holy Baptism, when you taste the wine and chew on the bread that is the flesh of Christ, you know that your salvation is outside of yourself, not dependent on your performance but on the surety of Christ’s promise to save you.

IggyAntiochus,

Beautifully written.

Peace and blessings,
Anna

 

[onemangang]

Yes. This is a horible consequence of a system of salvation divorced from the sacraments of Christ. There is, frankly, no objective standard of determining your standing with the Lord in reformed church theology (both Baptist and non-Baptist). When preaching the gospel, evangelical churches are very good of speaking of the free gift of grace through faith in Christ. Unfortunately, however, there is no way to determine that you have received that gift other than your own internal, subjective feelings.

Believe me, I, and countless others within revivalistic churches have suffered from a conscience which cannot find any rest in Christ because we did not know whether we were objectively benefitting from His sacrifice.

It’s even worse in Calvinistic reformed churches where Christ’s atonement is seen as pertaining only to the elect…which, aside from subjective faith, now also adds an even more subjective predestination which we have no way of determining other than our own feelings.

Well stated my friend!
The notion of Assurance of Salvation in communities that lack a Sacramental Economy is such a farce.

Yes. In my years in evangelicalism, there was never any assurance that I was saved. I heard week after week that if I REALLY believed, I was secure in my salvation. Of course, there was never any assurance that I really believed, because I was quite aware of the umpteen hundreds of sins I had committed on any given day. Ultimately, I had to have faith in my faith. For all of the criticism that Baptists lay on Rome for teaching works salvation, reformed church teaching is far more insidious. As you said, I’m sure there are some that don’t wrestle with whether they’re really saved or not, however, they are simply ignoring the fact that their faith being the measure of whether they are right with God or not is much more uncertain than works salvation. Oddly enough, the only measuring stick they have to determine if they really believe is their works.

At least Rome has Baptism, the Supper, absolution. Concrete, tangible means by which we know that Christ has promised to save us. When those words of absolution bounce off of your ear drums, when you remember your incorporation into the very name of God in Holy Baptism, when you taste the wine and chew on the bread that is the flesh of Christ, you know that your salvation is outside of yourself, not dependent on your performance but on the surety of Christ’s promise to save you.

Again Great post!
I found this to be true when I was a “Non-denominational Evangelical”
I take that you have been called to a closer union in Christ from your time on this forum and prayer, bible studies, etc, etc.

Glad to see the title Lutheran near your name now. Much Easier to communicate with someone who has a systematic theology to reference, and defined tenets of faith!

God bless you on the Journey called life!
Peace and love in Christ!

 

[stewstew03]

Well stated my friend!
The notion of Assurance of Salvation in communities that lack a Sacramental Economy is such a farce.

Again Great post!
I found this to be true when I was a “Non-denominational Evangelical”
I take that you have been called to a closer union in Christ from your time on this forum and prayer, bible studies, etc, etc.

Glad to see the title Lutheran near your name now. Much Easier to communicate with someone who has a systematic theology to reference, and defined tenets of faith!

God bless you on the Journey called life!
Peace and love in Christ!

I agree with all sentiments above (more or less). The reason for the post was that this particular SBC pastor seemed to be moving away from the traditional evangelical tenets (OSAS, etc.). In fact, lately he has been emphasizing the importance of “works” in the Christian’s life.

Of course, he didn’t call it works - he called it obedience.

 

[CopticChristian]

I agree with all sentiments above (more or less). The reason for the post was that this particular SBC pastor seemed to be moving away from the traditional evangelical tenets (OSAS, etc.). In fact, lately he has been emphasizing the importance of “works” in the Christian’s life.

Of course, he didn’t call it works - he called it obedience.

Sounds like he was referring to Paul and the book of Romans Obedience of Faith.

Romans 1

5through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake, 6among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;

Romans 16

25Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; 27to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen

Faith requires obedience. Obedience is action thus Faith and James/Works.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I agree with all sentiments above (more or less). The reason for the post was that this particular SBC pastor seemed to be moving away from the traditional evangelical tenets (OSAS, etc.). In fact, lately he has been emphasizing the importance of “works” in the Christian’s life.

Of course, he didn’t call it works - he called it obedience.

Stew,

"The Church, the Kingdom, and Contemporary Evangelical Ecclesiology: A Baptist Reassessment, By Robert E. Sagers, Assistant to the Senior Vice President for Academic Administration, The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary

. . . .The contention of this paper is that understanding the church as a colony of the Kingdom in this “already/not yet” framework makes sense best within a Baptist ecclesiology. The church, then, in its relationship to the Kingdom of Christ, is made up of subjects of the Kingdom, is ruled by the Words of the King, proclaims the gospel of the Kingdom, practices the ordinances of the Kingdom, and lives out the values and ethics of the Kingdom. . . .

. . . The church as a Kingdom colony is the focus of the “now” aspect of the now but not yet, and is therefore a model of the coming Kingdom of Christ, when Jesus’ rule extends from his church to the entire cosmos… . . " Link: russellmoore.com/documents/russellmoore/Sagers-Kingdom-and-Church.pdf

I just haven’t found a Southern Baptist view of Inaugurated Eschatology that involves the possibility of losing one’s salvation.

Is the pastor actually saying one can lose their salvation?

Peace,
Anna

 

[stewstew03]

Stew,

"The Church, the Kingdom, and Contemporary Evangelical Ecclesiology: A Baptist Reassessment, By Robert E. Sagers, Assistant to the Senior Vice President for Academic Administration, The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary

. . . .The contention of this paper is that understanding the church as a colony of the Kingdom in this “already/not yet” framework makes sense best within a Baptist ecclesiology. The church, then, in its relationship to the Kingdom of Christ, is made up of subjects of the Kingdom, is ruled by the Words of the King, proclaims the gospel of the Kingdom, practices the ordinances of the Kingdom, and lives out the values and ethics of the Kingdom. . . .

. . . The church as a Kingdom colony is the focus of the “now” aspect of the now but not yet, and is therefore a model of the coming Kingdom of Christ, when Jesus’ rule extends from his church to the entire cosmos… . . " Link: russellmoore.com/documents/russellmoore/Sagers-Kingdom-and-Church.pdf

I just haven’t found a Southern Baptist view of Inaugurated Eschatology that involves the possibility of losing one’s salvation.

Is the pastor actually saying one can lose their salvation?

Peace,
Anna

Essentially, yes.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Essentially, yes.

O.K.

Anna

 

[Pastor_Augie]

I recently listened to a local Southern Baptist pastor describe salvation as akin to “inaugurated eschatology.” His point was that although we are already justified by the blood of Christ, the born-again believer must continue to walk with God and serve in obedience to Him. Is this any different than the Catholic position?

Where Southern Baptists say that we may differ is on the issue of whether we can lose our salvation. The faithful SBC-follower claims we can’t. But at the same time, they question the salvation of those who have received Christ and yet continue to backslide in their sin (hence the suspicion of Catholics - who say they are Christians, but yet worship idols, worship Mary, etc.). The Catholic would say those who continue to sin are separated from God. The SBC-follower would say those who continue to sin lose their joy and bring discipline upon themselves. Is there really a difference here? If someone loses their joy, are they not separated from God?

Isn’t this just semantics?

As a former SBC-follower, my firm belief is that Southern Baptists actually subscribe to many Catholic beliefs (or at the very least are much closer to Catholic doctrine than Reformed doctrine), but out of spite for “Rome,” Baptists desperately cling to the Reformation in an effort to distance themselves from their Catholic brethren.

Catholicism teaches
Salvation is the lifelong process whereby God and men cooperate in securing of forgiveness of sin. This is achieved only after death (and/or cleansing from sin in purgatory), and is dependant on man’s personal securing of objective righteousness before God; otherwise there would be no salvation.

The Bible Teaches
Salvation is an instant event upon ones admission that he is a sinner and believes (acknowledges) that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior at which time God lays one’s sins on Him (imputation) and He lays on us His merited favor (grace).

 

[JustaServant]

The Bible Teaches
Salvation is an instant event upon ones admission that he is a sinner and believes (acknowledges) that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior at which time God lays one’s sins on Him (imputation) and He lays on us His merited favor (grace).

Where in the Bible do you find salvation as an “instant event”?

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . . .The Bible Teaches Salvation is an instant event upon ones admission that he is a sinner and believes (acknowledges) that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior at which time God lays one’s sins on Him (imputation) and He lays on us His merited favor (grace).

Hello Pastor Augie,
Where does the Bible say salvation is an instant event?

 

[IggyAntiochus]

Hello Pastor Augie,
Where does the Bible say salvation is an instant event?

’

Hezekiah 2:14

 

[jhookjoe]

My SB friend says all Christians on judgment day will enter “A White Throne Judgment”. When asked to expand explanation of that SB doctrine, he described Catholic Purgatory.
I explained Catholic doctrine of Purgatory as best I could and said we both believe in Purgatory, he insisted his was different.
Of course, he will always believe once saved, always saved. We parted ways there but the problem with SB is the next SB church will teach something different on judgment. This is the problem with no magisterial authority like us Catholics rest on. I asked him, "if your preacher, who is a full time pharmacist, teaches SB doctrine that is incorrect, what teaching authority can your church members turn to correct false doctrine? He said they don’t have to worry about that as he studies scripture always. But if he is wrong, there only recourse if “the Church Elders” in his church. I asks, "What if they agree with the false teaching? He had no answer but I see SB change from church to church and that is the reason for changes.
I explained that if a Catholic priest does this, we try to change internally with the priest. If he refuses, we contact higher authority, the Arch Dioceses or the Bishop. They have recalled the priest back to the seminary for more training.

 

[JustaServant]

’

Hezekiah 2:14

When I was a Baptist I saw a preacher do that once. Then he would just smile at the number of people flipping through their Bibles trying to find it.

 

[Anna_Scott]

’

Hezekiah 2:14

IggyAntiochus,

Very helpful. Not! lol

Anna

 

[IggyAntiochus]

IggyAntiochus,

Very helpful. Not! lol

Anna

Hehehe…

On a more serious note, I suppose we all believe that justification is, more or less, an instant event. A child is instantly justified when he or she is baptized (both in Catholic and Lutheran theology). I think the disagreement between reformed Christians and Catholic Christians is more whether that instant event can be lost.

 

[Hat4]

I’m curious about a few things and this looks like the thread to ask, sorry if I’m derailing it. I’ve always wondered what the “sinner’s prayer” is. Can anyone let me know where in the bible it is? Also, can you have an alter call without an alter? One last question; I think I missed the part in the bible were everyone signed cards to show they were saved, can someone point out where that is? I know they have to be in the bible and can’t be traditions.

 

[stewstew03]

I’m curious about a few things and this looks like the thread to ask, sorry if I’m derailing it. I’ve always wondered what the “sinner’s prayer” is. Can anyone let me know where in the bible it is? Also, can you have an alter call without an alter? One last question; I think I missed the part in the bible were everyone signed cards to show they were saved, can someone point out where that is? I know they have to be in the bible and can’t be traditions.

’

Hezekiah 2:14