"Baptize all nations..."

[Adamek]

"Go therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. " This is the command given to the apostles by Lord Jesus. This is the mission given by Jesus to his church.
As I start to read Pope Benedict’s “Dominus Jesus”, written nearly 20 years ago, I wonder if this message still resonates. Is the church still committed to baptizing all nations?

 

[HumbleIOughtToBe]

Church is having a mission trip and confirmation retreat to North Korea. #Joke

Bringing High School kids to North Korea.

 

[adamhovey1988]

Yes, of course. But a lot of people misunderstand that. Pope Francis, for instance says we should not proselytise, but he lays heavy emphasis on evangelisation. I think the problem here, is with the English translations of those words. Generally speaking, when someone says proselytise now, that means the kind of aggressive person, telling you you’re going to hell. Evangelisation, involves sharing Your faith, not condemning the other so much even if you disagree with it. That’s not to say you shouldn’t tell them they’re wrong, that can lead to the sin of indifferentism, but making sure, let people know the truth of yours.

 

[adamhovey1988]

Hey, I would go to North Korea if I could bring Christ to people.

 

[Adamek]

Yes, of course. But

Not to pick on what you wrote, but sometimes I get the impression that the original message left to us by Jesus is “getting lost in translation”.
In today’s world, the difference between “proselytize” and “evangelize” is awfully blurred.

In regards to “hell”, Jesus died for us to save us from that fate. If it is no longer part of the equation, than what is the point of religion? Just being nice to people?

I find many Buddhists and Muslims being much nicer than lots of Christians I know.

 

[Dovekin]

In regards to “hell”, Jesus died for us to save us from that fate. If it is no longer part of the equation, than what is the point of religion? Just being nice to people?

I find many Buddhists and Muslims being much nicer than lots of Christians I know.

God loves us and lives with us. That is the point of Christianity. Hell is, at best, a poor substitute. Hell motivates by fear, rather than building the wonder and joy of knowing and being with God.

 

[Adamek]

God loves us and lives with us. That is the point of Christianity. Hell is, at best, a poor substitute. Hell motivates by fear, rather than building the wonder and joy of knowing and being with God.

Yes, God loves us. And also -

“**He will come again in glory **
to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.”

 

[Dovekin]

“**He will come again in glory **
to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end

Christ’s judgment will be rooted in his love for us. He was willing to die so that our sins will be forgiven. His eternal judgment will affirm that commitment to mercy. It is not something to fear, but a great gift to us. An eternal grace that will have no end.

Our hope for that gift moves us to share it with others. We evangelize by bringing hope to others, by bringing love to others. Without those, the faith we preach will be jangled and harsh.

The meesage of hell, the fear of the final judgment, distract us from the reality of God’s love for us. They may be needed to turn some people toward God, but our religion is not about those things, it is about God who loves us and lives with us.

 

[Adamek]

The meesage of hell, the fear of the final judgment, distract us from the reality of God’s love for us. They may be needed to turn some people toward God, but our religion is not about those things, it is about God who loves us and lives with us.

So, do we believe that everyone goes to heaven, or that there is no hell?
Could we even imagine a heaven if the possibility of hell did not exist?
Is hell one of those inconvenient, unmentionable truths?

 

[Dovekin]

In regards to “hell”, Jesus died for us to save us from that fate. If it is no longer part of the equation, than what is the point of religion?

Just to remind you, this was your original question. I am arrempting to answer that question, by affirming that God loves us and lives, and that is is the “point of religion.”

So, do we believe that everyone goes to heaven, or that there is no hell?
Could we even imagine a heaven if the possibility of hell did not exist?
Is hell one of those inconvenient, unmentionable truths?

In the context of the “point of religion,” I think these questions are largely irrelevant. We try to love and serve God in this world and seek to be happy with God in the next world. What we will one day be, we do not know. What we know is God loves us and lives with us, and we hope is that will continue whatever life is like when this one is over.

Heaven and hell are inconvenient in that some people are distracted by those concepts from recognizing that God loves us and lives with us. They are not particularly “unmentionable.” Many people like to talk about them, speculate on them, often to considerable advantage. I recommend Dante’s Divine Comedy to everyone. Likewise Bosch’s Garden of Earthly Delights. They can contribute to our understanding of how God loves and lives with us, but they are not the “point of religion.”

 

[adamhovey1988]

Thank you for taking what I said out of context , you did that when you decided not to use the entire quote. I’m a former Buddhist, for the record, and one of my closest friends, is a Sunni Muslim, It’s not about being nice, it’s about the truth.

 

[Adamek]

We try to love and serve God in this world and seek to be happy with God in the next world. What we will one day be, we do not know. What we know is God loves us and lives with us, and we hope is that will continue whatever life is like when this one is over.

This is beautifully stated. Getting back to the topic, what happens to Christ’s command to go out and baptize? If all we need is love, than who needs Christ, his sacrifice, salvation history, his commandments and, for that matter, any religion?

 

[Adamek]

Thank you for taking what I said out of context , you did that when you decided not to use the entire quote. I’m a former Buddhist, for the record, and one of my closest friends, is a Sunni Muslim, It’s not about being nice, it’s about the truth.

No disrespect intended. Adding your full quote would not have changed the message. It is the truth that I was trying to get at, and this is something that is being obscured, intentionally or not, by the pope in many of his statements. I can no longer accept the argument that his message is “lost in translation”.

 

[Dovekin]

The wording is from the Baltimore Catechism, adapted a bit for this context. Credit them with any beauty you found.

1. Q. Why did God make you?
   A. God made me to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him forever in the next.

This is what evangelization is about, bringing people to fulfill this purpose.

Religon serves that end, teaching us to live together and to live together with God. The sacraments are a way that God lives with us. It is not all about “You’ll get pie in the sky when you die.”

 

[TheLittleLady]

There is Mass in North Korea.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Is the church still committed to baptizing all nations?

I believe that the Church, itself is but there are those in the Church who are no longer committed to baptizing all nations, mostly in the name of ecumenism or relativism or both.

I get the impression that the original message left to us by Jesus is “getting lost in translation”…In regards to “hell”, Jesus died for us to save us from that fate. If it is no longer part of the equation, than what is the point of religion? Just being nice to people?

I agree. We need let people know that the Catholic church is the fullness of truth and the way to that is through Jesus Christ and if they refuse or reject that, there is a hell and they have a choice, a daily choice to chooses Christ instead.
Just letting people know that God exists and loves us is not enough.

I agree we need to be walking in love and showing God’s love but we need to show why we have that love. In our culture today people talk about love but it is not the love of God. It is a relativistic love. Do what ever you want and I will support you kind of love.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

God loves us and lives with us. … Hell motivates by fear, rather than building the wonder and joy of knowing and being with God.

I agree. I do think people need to hear and be reminded that hell does exist though and that they will spend eternity in one or the other place, with God or without God based on their acceptance or rejection of Christ.

Christ’s judgment will be rooted in his love for us. … It is not something to fear, but a great gift to us. An eternal grace that will have no end.

Yes, this is true for those who choose Christ but for those who reject Christ the judgment is something to fear. Hell is real and He will separate the sheep and the goats and the goats will be sent to eternal punishment. The sheep to eternal joy.

We evangelize by bringing hope to others, by bringing love to others.

Wouldn’t you agree that the hope and love we share needs to be grounded in the message of Christ and His Church. In our society today many people talk about love but it is a false do what ever you want type of love.

The wording is from the Baltimore Catechism ,…

1. Q. Why did God make you?
   A. God made me to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him forever in the next.

I am a huge fan of the Baltimore catechism and appreciate this quote. I like taking it to the next question also:

From whom do we learn to know, love and serve God?

We learn to know, love and serve God from Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who teaches us through the Catholic Church.

and then the next question:

Where do we find the chief truths taught by Jesus Christ through the Catholic Church?

We find the chief truths taught by Jesus Christ throught the Catholic Church in the Apostles Creed.

(which says He shall come to judge the living and the dead)

The sacraments are a way that God lives with us.

Good point. The sacraments are the outward signs instituted by Christ to give us the graces we need and in answer to the OP question we should want and strive that everyone comes to the graces given to us by Christ.

 

[Dovekin]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.) Dovekin:
Christ’s judgment will be rooted in his love for us. … It is not something to fear, but a great gift to us. An eternal grace that will have no end.

We will be judged by Christ, who died so that our sins would be forgiven. This is the truth we learn “from Jesus Christ through the Catholic Church.” This is true whether we choose Christ or reject him. Christ will be our Judge. He will judge with justice, with a loving and merciful heart.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

We will be judged by Christ, who died so that our sins would be forgiven.

Yes I agree with that, for sure. The message just doesn’t stop there. We need to receive that forgiveness and follow Him.

This is true whether we choose Christ or reject him. Christ will be our Judge. He will judge with justice, with a loving and merciful heart.

Yes again. He will be our judge, though he is also clear that there will be those whose judgment will be heaven and those whose judgment will be hell because as you say He will judge with justice.

 

[Dovekin]

He will be our judge, though he is also clear that there will be those whose judgment will be heaven and those whose judgment will be hell because as you say He will judge with justice.

When I affirm that Christ will judge the living and the dead, the imortant part to me is that it is Christ who will judge. It does not matter that much that there will be a judgment; what matters is that Christ will be with us. I actually find it rather odd that you repeatedly assert that someone will be judging rather than that the Judge will be someone who was reviled and repudiated, who was hungry and poor, naked and in prison.