Baptized Eastern woman marrying a baptized Latin rite man -

[catholicbride]

hello everyone. I am newly engaged and planning a wedding in the Latin rite church. I was baptized Eastern rite and was a member of the Byzantine church for most of my childhood. At the end of highschool my family and I left the Byzantine to join a Roman rite church. We have been members there ever since. I was told by many priests that you do not have to actually change rites, just join the church and practice there.

My fiance’ was baptized Latin rite and grew up attending that. Several years ago his family, disgusted with some of the progressive changes being made in the Roman rite church they attended, joined a Byzantine rite church and have been going there ever since. This is also the parish my fiance’ and I will attend after we are married.

I have always been partial to the Roman rite and have always planned to be married in that rite. I have been told that the bride and groom always get married in the bride’s church. BUT THEN, I read on a Byzantine Catholic forum ( much like this one) that the canons of the church state that the couple marry in the Groom’s rite. Help me… what is the laws of the church on this??? I have spoken to my Roman rite officiant of choice and he told me that he has to send a simple letter to the Bishop requesting permission for me to marry in the Latin rite. He also told me not to worry that this is common and that he has never seen a request turned down.

Does anyone out there have any sort of experience in a situation like this? Thanks!!!

 

[Scoobyshme]

I would bet the house that you’ll have no problems. Should be approved, easily.

God bless and congratulations!

 

[catholicbride]

Thank you so much! I was worried because the only nice venue for a reception out here is available one one Saturday we want in Sep.2011 and I have my name on it as of right now but have to place a large deposit on it next week, non-refundable! My pastor told me to go ahead book the venue because he didn’t see a problem either… I was just wondering if anyone else had this pop up before. You relieved me very much…haha Thanks

 

[Scoobyshme]

Thank you so much! I was worried because the only nice venue for a reception out here is available one one Saturday we want in Sep.2011 and I have my name on it as of right now but have to place a large deposit on it next week, non-refundable! My pastor told me to go ahead book the venue because he didn’t see a problem either… I was just wondering if anyone else had this pop up before. You relieved me very much…haha Thanks

I’m sure you’re going to make a lovely bride, and have a wonderful marriage. How do I know this? Because you’re doing things God’s way, as opposed to most folks, doing it their way. God will bless you!

 

[Scoobyshme]

One more thing I would offer you and your finacee.

For both of you: Always, always come as a servant to your spouse. Serve your spouse, always. Put them first, and you last. Always.

If you do this, you will know marital bliss.

 

[5Loaves]

hello everyone. I am newly engaged and planning a wedding in the Latin rite church. I was baptized Eastern rite and was a member of the Byzantine church for most of my childhood. At the end of highschool my family and I left the Byzantine to join a Roman rite church. We have been members there ever since. I was told by many priests that you do not have to actually change rites, just join the church and practice there.

My fiance’ was baptized Latin rite and grew up attending that. Several years ago his family, disgusted with some of the progressive changes being made in the Roman rite church they attended, joined a Byzantine rite church and have been going there ever since. This is also the parish my fiance’ and I will attend after we are married.

…I read on a Byzantine Catholic forum ( much like this one) that the canons of the church state that the couple marry in the Groom’s rite. Help me… what is the laws of the church on this??? I have spoken to my Roman rite officiant of choice and he told me that he has to send a simple letter to the Bishop requesting permission for me to marry in the Latin rite. He also told me not to worry that this is common and that he has never seen a request turned down.

Does anyone out there have any sort of experience in a situation like this? Thanks!!!

… the only nice venue for a reception out here is available one one Saturday we want in Sep.2011 and I have my name on it as of right now but have to place a large deposit on it next week, non-refundable!..

Welcome to the CAF and the Eastern Catholicism section. And congratulations on your future marriage!

You’ve gotten a response from a priest of the Latin Church and from a Catholic, Scoobyshme, who is also of the Latin Church. And you were on a different forum where you got some responses.

I will just offer a couple of thoughts and questions. Hopefully some other Eastern Catholics will respond here before your “deadline”.

From what you have said the groom’s Church is in fact the Latin Chuch, because he never formally made a request for a transfer his canonical status over to an Eastern Catholic Church.

As I understand your posts, both you and your fiancé worship in this EC Church and “This is also the parish my fiance’ and I will attend after we are married.” What has your pastor (in the EC) said when you have talked with him about your plans for marriage? The wedding begins your new vocation of marriage. You plan to worship in this EC parish and raise your children in this EC parish?

(The marriage rite in the EC is different from the Latin Church marriage rite and there are theological differences behind that. )

You’ve asked the priest in the Latin Church a canonical question and he responded with a canonical answer. Your fiancé is a member of the Latin Church. You are a member of an EC Church. You need to have permission to not have the marriage in your EC Church.

It appears from what you say that you yourself are a member of an Eastern Catholic Church by virtue of your Baptism and Chrismation there. You’ve been free as an EC to participate in reconciliation and Holy Eucharist in the Latin Church, or in your own Eastern Church. CCEO Canon 403

Your fiancé it seems from your description was baptized in the Latin Church making him a Latin Catholic. He has never formally changed churches (nor has your family) so you both remain at this time canonically in those separate churches.

As an EC woman you have a unique position with regards to your canonical status

Canon 33 A wife is at liberty to transfer to the Church of the husband at the celebration of or during the marriage; when the marriage has ended, she can freely return to the original Church sui iuris.

So you could choose to join your future husband and become a member of the Latin Church. Personally, I would strongly encourage you not to do thus. All the emphasis especially since the Second Vatican Council and in both codes of Canons and elsewhere encourage in the strongest possible terms that Eastern Catholics maintain their faithful tradition. Since you and your fiance’, and his parents, all have been living as Catholics in an Eastern Catholic parish, and since “This is also the parish my fiance’ and I will attend after we are married.” i strongly encourage you to discuss this with your own EC pastor.

Since your husband remains canonically in the Latin Church, again, your Latin Church pastor is correct that you are the one who needs the permission to marry in the Latin Church. (Bless him he seems to be at least familiar with the procedure of marriage between EC and Latin Catholics. The recording of the marriage wherever it takes place, needs to be done properly.)

But again, since you are actually both practicing your Catholic faith and will be practicing your vocation of marriage and family in an EC church, you say, then this is the time to get some instruction and counsel from the Eastern Catholic priest. It’s not the place of the Latin priest to advocate for preservation of your own patrimony (tho we in the East would hope he would do so). You seem to have asked him a juridical question and he responded to that part.

Again, I hope other ECC here will reply. I’m dashing this off in a hurry. I realize you are feeling many pressures preparing for your wedding and with this deadline for a venue approaching but since you have presented your question in another forum and here I’m hopeful you will be interested not only in the letter of the law but also in what you might learn about the Church in which you plan to live your married life and raise your children.

 

[5Loaves]

Marriage requires recent copies of the baptismal record of both bride and groom so you may want to be sure you have those, which will also clearly state what is your current status as far as which Church* sui iuris* you are a member. Any formal change in Church* sui iuris* after baptism would have formally been recorded on that baptismal record.

 

[catholicbride]

Thank you for the great amount of very detailed info you posted! I greatly appreciated it!

Though a couple places I think you may have gotten confused… I was baptized EC, he was baptized Latin rite. I left the EC to attend Latin rite for the past 5-6 years. He left the Latin Rite to attend EC for the past 5-6 years. My church I belong to ( have been for 3 years) is the Latin rite I want to be married in. My fiance’ wants to also be married in the Latin rite. Though we do plan to attend an EC after we are married, my fiance’ is not interested in actually switching officially from the Latin to the EC. We only chose to attend that church because his entire family attends and it is the most conservative parish in his hometown. I have in the past looked into formally switching rites but my parish priest counseled me not to due to the length of the procedure, the amount of paperwork, and the fact that it could be hard to get approved. EC is not my first choice to attend but I will gladly attend where my fiance( husband by then) wants to and to keep close ties with his family. that, to both of us, is very important. EC is definitely not my first or ideal choice to be married in. Hands down… just a partiality on my part.

So what you are telling me is that it’s probably not a good idea for me to pursue a Latin rite marriage ceremony and nuptial mass, but rather to try and speak to a EC priest and arrange a marriage there? I do not have a EC pastor that i am familiar with as I have left the EC years ago and have been going to Latin rite ever since. I am close with my Latin rite priest and that is why my fiance’ and I want him to perform our marriage. Both my fiance’ and I know this priest and we feel he is the right one to marry us. Mostly, this is what we want.

My question was do any of you foresee a real problem in getting this permission for me to be married in the Latin rite? I may be able to hold onto the venue for an extra week… but that has me greatly worried. Again,

 

[5Loaves]

Thank you for the great amount of very detailed info you posted! I greatly appreciated it!

…I was baptized EC, he was baptized Latin rite. I left the EC to attend Latin rite for the past 5-6 years. He left the Latin Rite to attend EC for the past 5-6 years. My church … ( have been for 3 years) is** the Latin rite I want to be married in. My fiance’ wants to also be married in the Latin rite.**…

I’m sorry I needed to write without a lot of time to edit what I put there. I don’t have much time right now either. I will try to respond clearly to the “legal” part of things which I thought I did cover, tho as you may have seen in my post, my heart also focuses on the way your marriage and family live out your future lives as Catholics.

So** what you are telling me is that it’s probably not a good idea for me to pursue a Latin rite marriage ceremony** and nuptial mass, but rather to try and speak to a EC priest and arrange a marriage there?,

No. I’m not saying that.

According to canon law you have the right to be married in the Latin Church. You both will need to of course go through whatever “pre-Cana” preparations for marriage are required in that Diocese. You will need to get the dispensation to marry outside your own Church sui iuris.

My question was do any of you foresee a real problem in getting this permission for me to be married in the Latin rite? I may be able to hold onto the venue for an extra week… but that has me greatly worried. Again,

Hopefully someone else will chime in here who has direct experience with this particular paperwork. *I see no apparent problem with the dispensation itself. You just need to GET it. ** I have experience in general with the Church and paper work and it can be a challenge to get papers in a timely fashion and get them done correctly. The ability to move paperwork forward varies greatly… Usually the chancery staff isn’t where things bog down.

It’s probably in your favor that your Latin priest actually has some experience with this.

I would be proactive in finding out what needs to be done and *what the time line is *and I would get that from your Latin priest ASAP and then confirm that with the chancery myself.

When you know what is needed and the time line then you can track if something isn’t moving along when it ought to. That is what* I’d *do in your position.

Though we do plan to attend an EC after we are married, my fiance’ is not interested in actually switching officially from the Latin to the EC. We only chose to attend that church because his entire family attends and it is the most conservative parish in his hometown…EC is not my first choice to attend but I will gladly attend where my fiance( husband by then) wants to and to keep close ties with his family. that, to both of us, is very important. EC is definitely not my first or ideal choice to be married in. Hands down… just a partiality on my part.

I know this isn’t where your focus is but indulge me. Have you been to the EC church your husband and his family have as their parish? I would also strongly encourage you to talk with the EC priest, or his wife, or the EC deacon or his wife about your future life ECC parishoners. (Your children follow the Church of the father who is Latin so they would be enrolled in the Latin Church, unless both you and he agree to enroll them in the EC church.)

There are significant differences, some of which you are clearly well aware, some you’re not, between the Latin Church and ECCs. There may well be some “mixed” families already in that EC parish and the priest/deacon or their wives could help you connect with those families and get their perspective on how they have managed these differences. You do have this extra layer of what seems like no big deal now, but when you have children, and those children have grandparents who are active in two very different, very rich traditions, it’s good to be able to connect with families who have experience with this.

Since your fiance and his parents have been active in that EC parish for a number of years then they surely have their EC friends whom they would want to invite to your wedding. If you do talk with the EC priest/deacon and their wives the EC clergy might participate in some way in your Latin Church wedding as well which would I think be a good thing.

*I had to get a copy of my confirmation record a while ago (I was not baptized Catholic) and when I received the document parts were not filled out at all and my mother’s maiden name was spelled wrong. It took several trips to that parish to finally get an accurate document. I had a very hard time tracking down my daughter’s baptismal record. It turned out the baptism had not been recorded in the parish where it took place. It was in the files of the “mission” whose priest did the sacraments. I’ve heard many other stories of paper work issues.

 

[kitkatty]

Hi Catholic Bride, well as Five Loaves just remarked someone with that experience should chime in and here I am,.,Im Byzantine Catholic and married a Latin Rite and I wanted to get married in the Byzantine Catholic Church ,assuming, as you did , that the wedding would take place in the Church of the bride.The priest in the Byzantine Church said that according to Canon Law for Eastern Catholics , which you would still fall under having not changed rites, that the wedding take place in the Cjurch Sui Iurus of the groom. Now granted this was back in the seventies but I really dont think that has changed. In that case you really wouldnt have a problem since your fiance is still canonically Latin Catholic and you want to marry in the Latin Church. In my case, since I wanted the Byzantine wedding, permission had to be gotten from both of our respective bishops but it wasnt a problem.
I m not trying to contradict anything your priest may have said but the canons governing those things are sometimes a little different for Latin than Eastern Catholics.Five Loaves gave you a good piece of advice and I second it, talk to the Byzantine priest in your fiances families parish soon and he may very tell you that you dont have a problem since you are to follow the rite of the groom as to where the marriage takes place. Also this doesnt make you a Latin Catholic but at that time you have a very easy opportunity to enter the Latin Church without all the wait and paperwork if that is what you want.I think all you have to do is make known at the time of the wedding you want to transfer. But I have to ask you to really consider this since you plan on attending an Eastern paris h afterwards anyway. Also as Five Loaves mentioned, the tradition you bring your future children up in should be discussed before anyone does any switching of rites.
Sorry if I have misunderstood the details of your situation or given any incorrect information but this was my actual experience. Again, I would urge you to speak to the Byzantine priest soon and he can give you the correct information on the canons regarding marriage that would govern you. Congratulations on your wedding and I hope all goes smoothly for you.

 

[5Loaves]

Hi Catholic Bride, well as Five Loaves just remarked someone with that experience should chime in and here I am,.,Im Byzantine Catholic and married a Latin Rite ... In my case, since I wanted the Byzantine wedding, permission had to be gotten from both of our respective bishops but **it wasnt a problem.**

I `m not trying to contradict anything your priest may have said but the canons governing those things are sometimes a little different for Latin than Eastern Catholics…
… Again, I would urge you to speak to the Byzantine priest soon and he can give you the correct information on the canons regarding marriage that would govern you. Congratulations on your wedding and I hope all goes smoothly for you.

Good to hear from you. I believe also catholicbride has nothing to worry about as long as the right process is followed and done in due time. This is what tribunals facilitate happening. They know how to do their job. Latin pastor needs to be in touch with them now, and it sounds like he knows this.

Just to add a wrinkle-- I suggested talking with the Chancery (Tribunal/Canon Law office of the Diocese) because they can deal with the particular Churches involved. They will either have EC canon lawyers in house or they will have EC Canon lawyers they go to in these situations.

The EC Church which Catholic Bride and her fiancee are planning to attend is not necessarily the same ECC *sui iuris * she was baptized and chrismated into and is enrolled in at this time. So that priest may be in a different ECC *sui iuris * and not necessarily know for sure the situation. Although there is the overall CCEO, Code of canons of Oriental Churches, some ECC do also have their own codes.

CCEO Canon 28 1. A rite is the liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary patrimony, culture and circumstances of history of a distinct people, by which its own manner of living the faith is manifested in each Church sui iuris. 2. The rites treated in this code, unless otherwise stated, are those which arise from the Alexandrian, Antiochene, Armenian, Chaldean and Constantinopolitan traditions.

The CCEO also frequently give a code which then includes words like “with due regard for particular law”, “according to the norms of the particular law of the each Church sui iuris”, “according to the norm of particular law of his own Church sui iuris”.

I’m able to contact a canonist in my Latin diocese because I had some canon law classes with him and he made himself available. But before I had the classes with him I had called the tribunal and found them very easy to talk with and very used to fielding questions from stressed out people. I think Canon law is best left in the hands of these folks. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t get a clear understanding of what procedure is required and then be able to track how it is progressing. This I think is very wise. I’ve heard too many stories of pastors who say don’t worry and then when push comes to shove they are red in the face (or not) when the time comes and stuff is not in order and they thought they were being “pastoral” by saying don’t worry… I say a little anxiety is a good thing when this stuff needs taking care of.