Bargaining with God?

[Lee1]

it is written that Gods thoughts are not our thoughts.

If I asked God for something, which sometimes I do, I always finish by saying “thy will be done.”

If Theo2’s wife is made aware of the pitfalls involved in this and submits it all to Gods will then what has she to lose? God knows our thoughts even without prayer I’m sure and we are told this too. He I’m sure would forgive her for asking.

 

[Theo2]

We have done everything. She takes 3 Norco a day and that is all the doctor will prescribe. They are less effective. They can"t operate. She has an implanted stimulator and we haven’t found a setting that does the job.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Time to find a new pain clinic!! There are many many other therapies for those of us with chronic pain.

 

[Theo2]

And I take your point, but I think she would have to ‘speak’ with God about that herself and yes I can see how that might be an attempt to do a ‘deal’ with our Heavenly Father.

My wife has the belief that she shouldn’t ask God for something for herself. I have not suggested the deal yet.

Does your wife have faith in God?

Yes.

And He’s deliberately leaving her in pain until she does?

Possible.

God doesn’t work that way theo. You are looking to blame God for your wife’s pain. it does work that way. Forgive God for creating your wife, be at peace with God.

Beg to differ. I am not sure what you think that God doesn’t work that way. To know how God works, we would have to be God. He is very complex and beyond our comprehension. I am not blaming God for anything. Pain comes from our sins or the sins of others. God may allow pain so he can bring about good.

Jesus wasn’t really into people making bargains

Well. Thomas said he would not believe unless he could put his hand in the side of Jesus. Is than not a deal?

 

[Theo2]

That is a thought but the guy we go to, comes highly recommended. Even the surgeon who said he would not recommend an operation said our pain management guy was one of the best.

 

[Theo2]

I do not know the workings of God. I think He deals with each of His children according to what is best for them.

 

[Theo2]

Sorry, Jesus was speaking to the devil not one of His children who loves Him. IMO, you are taking this out of context.

 

[Lee1]

The God I worship, respect and try to love is benign (gentle and kind) I can’t conceive of a problem of asking as long as you’re sure that your prayer is directed to Him by adequate preparation.

Is there something I’m missing about this? Seriously, if there’s some mysterious reason why we shouldn’t ask God to heal us please enlighten me, by private message if necessary.

 

[Lee1]

Judges 11:29, that was a dumb thing to do in my opinion.

It’s not necessary to offer to do a deal with God, anything we can offer Him He already has no? A bit like my neighbour gifting me my back lawn.

So I’m not suggesting a deal, getting back to the original great title, ‘bargaining with God’ I’m suggesting asking for healing.

 

[Theo2]

Judges 11:29, that was a dumb thing to do in my opinion.

It’s not necessary to offer to do a deal with God, anything we can offer Him He already has no? A bit like my neighbour gifting me my back lawn.

So I’m not suggesting a deal, getting back to the original great title, ‘bargaining with God’ I’m suggesting asking for healing.

Well I pray daily that I will do whatever the Lord ask of me.
What I suggest be given to the Lord is something He wants but does not have. Another true believer. God does not force Himself on us.

 

[Lee1]

I believe that the child recognises the Father and beneath our organic exterior our souls are made in the image of God. Belief from that point of view is a problem the ego has not the soul.

I cannot be sure about these things and they are a matter for each of individually to decide guided by the teachings of scripture and of the Church to which we belong.

 

[UpUpAndAway]

I completely agree with that. I just don’t believe He can be swayed by “I’ll do this if you heal me.” If healing is what He intends, it will be granted without conditions on the part of the requester. Ask for healing, yes. I don’t think anyone is saying she your wife shouldn’t ask. But just ask. Ask again and again, with faith in His goodness. But simply ask.

I’m praying for you and your wife. God bless.

 

[Theo2]

I believe that the child recognises the Father and beneath our organic exterior our souls are made in the image of God. Belief from that point of view is a problem the ego has not the soul.

I don’t get the second sentence. From what point of view?

 

[Lee1]

My possibly misguided and erroneous point is that since the soul is made in the image of God, which I take to mean more than just looking like God, it, the soul, does not disbelieve, however our worldly interface so to speak, the conscious mind may well have such problems believing due to the illusions we are surrounded with and the constant reliance on the five senses.

But, as I say, I may have completely misunderstood and be wrong. The fact that I sin daily is testament to my Fallability, (misspelt in honour of @lisaandlena).

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Beg to differ. I am not sure what you think that God doesn’t work that way. To know how God works, we would have to be God. He is very complex and beyond our comprehension. I am not blaming God for anything. Pain comes from our sins or the sins of others. God may allow pain so he can bring about good.

you are discussing the problem of evil now.

why is there evil in the world, why is my wife, sister, mother daughter, father suffering.
St Augustine had some great things to say on the problem of evil.

however we cannot say well God is ok with my wife’s pain. He allows her to suffer.
that is attributing human bias and prejudice to God. its a form of idolisation. because as you say, God is well beyond our comprehension.

we cannot say pain comes from our sins and the sins of others. I cannot say my sister is in pain and suffering because of her sins and those of others,
its simply just not true

 

[Theo2]

we cannot say pain comes from our sins and the sins of others. I cannot say my sister is in pain and suffering because of her sins and those of others,
its simply just not true

I am afraid we are 180 deg. different on that. When Adam and Eve were thrown out of paradise God said they would have to work by the sweat of their brawl, have children in pain and they would die. Therefore all pain, sickness, because it brings death and suffering come from sin.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Adam and Eve were thrown out of the garden for the sin of disobeying God.
Eve was punished by the pain of childbirth being increased. now if you have ever had a child, you will know mankind describes this pain as the greatest we know.

Adam was punished with toiling in weedy poor ground all the days of his life.

it does not mean therefore pain and sickness comes from sin.

 

[Seagull]

I’m so sorry about you and your wife’s situation.
54 years of marriage- how wonderful !
I’m also humbled by how you’re opening your heart to us.
I recently read a Catholic book - about acceptance.
Written in the 1600’s.
Not my will - but Thy will - be done.

It’s a mighty tough philosophy to live by -
Padre Pio said a famous quote ‘ pray , hope, and don’t worry ‘
May the faith of your love for each other - and God -
sustain the both of you - through this ‘

 

[Theo2]

I recommend you reread the account.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

ok well first, we are free to not take the first 11 chapters of Genesis literally.

Our literal history starts with Abraham. even then, in the New Testament, in the Gospels, the writers are not concerned with history, they are concerned with the theology of what it all means.

Genesis was written while the Jews were in exile and taken into Babylon.

sin does not come from original sin. we as finite, imperfect creatures are free to live good lives and move towards God, or to move away from God and be corrupted in evil. Adam and Eve already had the propensity to sin, they were created imperfect. They chose disobedience.

from the catechism
Sin is an offense against God: "Against you, you alone, have I sinned, and done that which is evil in your sight."122 Sin sets itself against God’s love for us and turns our hearts away from it. Like the first sin, it is disobedience, a revolt against God through the will to become "like gods,"123 knowing and determining good and evil. Sin is thus "love of oneself even to contempt of God."124 In this proud self- exaltation, sin is diametrically opposed to the obedience of Jesus, which achieves our salvation.125

The root of sin is in the heart of man, in his free will, according to the teaching of the Lord: "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a man."128 But in the heart also resides charity, the source of the good and pure works, which sin wounds.
1873 The root of all sins lies in man’s heart. The kinds and the gravity of sins are determined principally by their objects.