Barrier Method vs. NFP

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But what do you define as “this”? The possibility of a child? Sharing the ability to create?
I don’t see that to be true. The condom is not 100% effective, even with perfect use. It can fail in an individual situation. The possibility is there. A condom signifies that one is ready to share love, but would like to avoid procreation if possible - given living conditons. As is the attitude with NFP in both cases, the possibility of procreation is lessened, but love is still there.
The “this” is the person’s fertility. That is an important God-given trait!
Condoms can fail, but as you have stated, the couple intentionally doesn’t wish to share 100% of themselves; so a discussion about their failure rates is irrelevant. If they will to withhold something, then it is not full unity. Check out various books about the “Theology of the Body.”

Merry Xmas!
 
The “this” is the person’s fertility. That is an important God-given trait!
Condoms can fail, but as you have stated, the couple intentionally doesn’t wish to share 100% of themselves; so a discussion about their failure rates is irrelevant. If they will to withhold something, then it is not full unity. Check out various books about the “Theology of the Body.”

Merry Xmas!
Wouldn’t the willingness to procreate in the future be sufficient? A couple may wish to share those properties in the future (as is the case with those who practice NFP) and would not be giving any less than 100%. The couple can responsibly space their children, and consummate their marriage. A condom’s presence in the marital act does not deem it, the act, selfish. Both methods are equally open to life.
 
What are your justifications for that claim? Procreative, maybe. Unitive? I’d like to see your argument for how condoms obstruct mutual expression of love in a unifying act. Mutual, self-giving love may be present where a condom is involved.
For one thing they block the one flesh union. Flesh to Flesh. For another marital love is a reflection of the Eucharist. If you not take it inside you do not benefit from it. The gift must given and received. Barrier methods block the gift from being given and received.Christ gives himself totally to us and we receive him. Barrier methods prevent this mirroring. You cannot hold back your fertility and say you are giving yourself completely in a unitive way. You are holding something back preventing complete union .
This is also on a spiritual level as well as on a physical level. Marriage is a sacrament with sacramental actions of which lovemaking is one. Marriage is a reflection of the love within the Trinity. The Father and Son give themselves totally, completely so that a third person is created. Married love must mirror that to be sacramental. The gift must be complete so that the character remains procreative/unitive whether procreation is physically possible or not.
 
Wouldn’t the willingness to procreate in the future be sufficient? A couple may wish to share those properties in the future (as is the case with those who practice NFP) and would not be giving any less than 100%. The couple can responsibly space their children, and consummate their marriage. A condom’s presence in the marital act does not deem it, the act, selfish. Both methods are equally open to life.
Sure, a couple can wish to share themselves in the future. But they are not doing so when the condom is there, thus that specific act of intercourse is not unitive.

I didn’t say that the marriage was invalid – that’s a different story, which involves the lack of a willingness from the start to EVER have children. But we’re simply talking about each specific act of intercourse.

Basically, your last sentence is the crux of your misunderstanding.
 
For one thing they block the one flesh union. Flesh to Flesh. For another marital love is a reflection of the Eucharist. If you not take it inside you do not benefit from it. The gift must given and received. Barrier methods block the gift from being given and received.Christ gives himself totally to us and we receive him. Barrier methods prevent this mirroring. You cannot hold back your fertility and say you are giving yourself completely in a unitive way. You are holding something back preventing complete union .
This is also on a spiritual level as well as on a physical level. Marriage is a sacrament with sacramental actions of which lovemaking is one. Marriage is a reflection of the love within the Trinity. The Father and Son give themselves totally, completely so that a third person is created. Married love must mirror that to be sacramental. The gift must be complete so that the character remains procreative/unitive whether procreation is physically possible or not.
I think you’re misinterpreting the “unitive” act that you’re trying to describe. It’s the act between a husband and wife. There are barrier methods that will allow for the penis to enter a woman, as well as touch her flesh. Sperm can still be released into the woman, but depending on the method, there will be some other obstacle in the way for the sperm. They aren’t as effective as a condom, but they’re still there. Anyways, the unitive act itself is a sharing in mutual, self-giving pleasure and love.

If you’re saying that you can’t hold back your fertility and claim spiritual union, then you’re arguing against the NFP method as well, which the Church endorses. The only difference between NFP and a barrier method is which part of the equation they try to subtract. Barrier methods prevent sperm from fertilizing the ovum, and NFP is used to time the moment where fertilization is highly improbable – to the degree where it would be considered an efficient contraception tool. NFP tries to keep the egg out of the equation, and I believe I’ve heard that it may rely on times where the endometrium is thinned, and thus making implantation harder, or impossible.
The gift must be complete so that the character remains procreative/unitive whether procreation is physically possible or not.
With that declaration in mind, what do you have to say about oral contraceptives? Or Nuva Rings? The patch?
 
Sure, a couple can wish to share themselves in the future. But they are not doing so when the condom is there, thus that specific act of intercourse is not unitive.

I didn’t say that the marriage was invalid – that’s a different story, which involves the lack of a willingness from the start to EVER have children. But we’re simply talking about each specific act of intercourse.

Basically, your last sentence is the crux of your misunderstanding.
The union being described is the mutual consent, and self-giving of the husband and wife. The presence of a condom does not make it any less unitive. What a condom does is inhibit the procreative properties of the act to some extent.

Now, before you argue against how that’s wrong, please turn your attention towards the Church’s stance on NFP, a method that also inhibits procreation.

I wasn’t talking about the couple’s marriage, good sir. 🙂 The “marital act” is sexual intercourse between a husband and wife that is seen as the renewal of the couple’s vows to each other.
 
Now, before you argue against how that’s wrong, please turn your attention towards the Church’s stance on NFP, a method that also inhibits procreation.
Please re-read the above posts. Yes, the NFP method also reduces the chance of conception, but the couple is not willfully withholding anything at that time. They are engaging in an act, and nothing in their actions is meant to directly hinder the unitive or procreative aspect.

Condoms are always wrong, because the couple wishes to partake of an act but intentionally takes a direct action to thwart one of the aspects.
 
Please re-read the above posts. Yes, the NFP method also reduces the chance of conception, but the couple is not willfully withholding anything at that time. They are engaging in an act, and nothing in their actions is meant to directly hinder the unitive or procreative aspect.
I’ve read the above arguments, and I’ve found them to be insufficient. Abstaining during fertility and only having sex when it’s determined that there’s little to no chance of procreation hinders the procreative aspect. By separating the egg you seek to do the same thing that a condom does – separate the sperm.

In both cases, there are obstacles to procreation.
Condoms are always wrong, because the couple wishes to partake of an act but intentionally takes a direct action to thwart one of the aspects.
NFP seeks to thwart the aspect of procreation. A couple that practices NFP only has sex during times where they’re infertile, which presents an obstacle to fertilization and implantation. That is a direct action. They knowingly abstain during fertility, and only break abstinence when they know that the wife is in her infertile period.
 
I’ve read the above arguments, and I’ve found them to be insufficient. Abstaining during fertility and only having sex when it’s determined that there’s little to no chance of procreation hinders the procreative aspect. By separating the egg you seek to do the same thing that a condom does – separate the sperm.

In both cases, there are obstacles to procreation.
I’d like to make it clear that in the case of contraceptive-NFP, what is being withheld is the woman’s ovum, and her fertility.
 
I’ve read the above arguments, and I’ve found them to be insufficient. Abstaining during fertility and only having sex when it’s determined that there’s little to no chance of procreation hinders the procreative aspect. By separating the egg you seek to do the same thing that a condom does – separate the sperm.

In both cases, there are obstacles to procreation.

NFP seeks to thwart the aspect of procreation. A couple that practices NFP only has sex during times where they’re infertile, which presents an obstacle to fertilization and implantation. That is a direct action. They knowingly abstain during fertility, and only break abstinence when they know that the wife is in her infertile period.
You really can’t see a difference? You stated above that to avoid sex during fertile periods is a “direct action.” Abstaining is not a direct action to initiate the launch sequence but them rip out the payload. It is an indirect way of keeping the payload from orbit until the weather clears.

You also stated that, “In both cases (NFP and condoms), there are obstacles to procreation.” But the Church would point out: where do those obstacles comes from?

God made the fertile/infertile periods, and the spouses merely decide to abstain – notice that they don’t try to partake of either the unitive OR the procreative aspects during that fertile time. With condoms, however, the spouses embark down the road which has two aspects, but they actively do something to try to allow one aspect but avoid the other.

To repeat: an NFP couple chooses to forego both aspects. The condom couple chooses to forego only one aspect.

Even if we differ about the word “direct,” can you see the difference in the idea of avoiding one aspect vs. avoiding both aspects?
 
You really can’t see a difference? You stated above that to avoid sex during fertile periods is a “direct action.” Abstaining is not a direct action to initiate the launch sequence but them rip out the payload. It is an indirect way of keeping the payload from orbit until the weather clears.

You also stated that, “In both cases (NFP and condoms), there are obstacles to procreation.” But the Church would point out: where do those obstacles comes from?

God made the fertile/infertile periods, and the spouses merely decide to abstain – notice that they don’t try to partake of either the unitive OR the procreative aspects during that fertile time. With condoms, however, the spouses embark down the road which has two aspects, but they actively do something to try to allow one aspect but avoid the other.

To repeat: an NFP couple chooses to forego both aspects. The condom couple chooses to forego only one aspect.

Even if we differ about the word “direct,” can you see the difference in the idea of avoiding one aspect vs. avoiding both aspects?
I don’t understand your claim about abstinence.
Abstinence is very much a direct action to avoid conception. Whether or not you’re waiting for “the weather to clear”, you must keep in mind the intentions involved. When you’re practicing NFP, the role of abstinence isn’t rooted in the spiritual. You’re abstaining until you conditions make it improbable for fertilization and implantation to occur. This is a contraceptive mentality, and it’s a mentality is shared by both those who use condoms, and those who use NFP.

What makes abstinence during fertile times morally acceptable if the only reason for abstinence is rooted in a contraceptive mentality? That is, you’re only abstaining because you’re waiting for your wife to be infertile? By knowingly exploiting the wife’s cycle of fertility, you seek to avoid conception. It’s undeniable that if a couple only wishes to have sex when the wife is infertile, they’re doing so only to avoid conception. Thus, the couple that practices NFP is just as guilty in their avoidance of conception as the couple that practices a barrier method.

Can you defend the idea a couple who practices NFP is still open to life? Yes. A couple can willingly practice contraception while still being open to life, whether they practice the barrier method or not.

Now, with that out of the way, I’d like to also address the nature of fertility.
You say that GOD made it so that a woman is infertile within the cycle. I agree. However, can you say without a doubt in your mind, that GOD created the infertile cycle only to be exploited by man? That is, did he want man to find the infertile portion of the cycle, and only have sex within that portion?

I can’t say that we are to interpret GOD’s Will through observing his creation, but I’d like to point out that if you’re going to argue that it’s right to exploit what GOD has given to us in terms of NFP, then by no stretch of the imagination can you justify condoms.
 
I’m not sure about the stuff regarding whether “God created the infertile cycle only to be exploited by man.” I’ll have to think about that one.
I would say that it’s not terribly relevant to the discussion, since my whole thrust is about the separation of the two aspects, which is not affected by whether we know or do not know about the biology of a woman’s cycle.
 
I think we have two parallel discussions going on here:
  • The morality of avoiding pregnancy
  • The morality of engaging in sex for the unitive aspect while thwarting the procreative aspect
Many of your points are actually directed at the first discussion. And I would agree with you on much of that. If a couple is using NFP to avoid pregnancy for a selfish reason, it is immoral. But this discussion is not about being open to life in a large sense. We are talking about the acceptable methods at each marital act (see the OP).

The Church clearly indicates that there are good reasons to avoid pregnancy at various times. Let’s not focus on that, since the discussion from the start was about the METHODS used to avoid pregnancy, not the motives.

Now, suppose a couple has valid motives to avoid pregnancy (and I never said that avoiding pregnancy was a problem). Do you acknowledge that there are two aspects, unitive and procreative? And do you acknowledge that barrier methods separate the two, while NFP does not?
 
I think we have two parallel discussions going on here:
  • The morality of avoiding pregnancy
  • The morality of engaging in sex for the unitive aspect while thwarting the procreative aspect
Many of your points are actually directed at the first discussion. And I would agree with you on much of that. If a couple is using NFP to avoid pregnancy for a selfish reason, it is immoral. But this discussion is not about being open to life in a large sense. We are talking about the acceptable methods at each marital act (see the OP).

The Church clearly indicates that there are good reasons to avoid pregnancy at various times. Let’s not focus on that, since the discussion from the start was about the METHODS used to avoid pregnancy, not the motives.

Now, suppose a couple has valid motives to avoid pregnancy (and I never said that avoiding pregnancy was a problem). Do you acknowledge that there are two aspects, unitive and procreative? And do you acknowledge that barrier methods separate the two, while NFP does not?
I do not acknowledge that. I’ve been arguing against that notion. They are equally immersed in the properties you describe. The morality of avoiding a pregnancy from Nfp is how I frame my argument for condoms. If NFP does not thwart procreation neither do condoms.
 
OK – at least I know how to try the explanations from my point of view!

Sorry to repeat myself, but the issue is not about the morality of avoiding pregnancy. You are trying to frame the discussion on the mental intentions of a couple. And there is much valid discussion that can be made about that. But the morality of “barrier methods vs. NFP” is on TOTALLY different grounds.

Let’s go back to the example used near the beginning of this thread. By your logic a person who skips a meal to try and lose weight is on the same moral par as someone who eats but then intentionally throws it up!

I’m saying: No, let’s assume the two people have a good reason to lose weight. We must now discuss the proper actions to take in order to lose weight, and obviously it’s moral to skip a meal, while immoral to intentionally puke it up. And it’s not merely because it wastes food or may harm the body. There’s something intuitively wrong about separating the two aspects of food.
 
I think you’re misinterpreting the “unitive” act that you’re trying to describe. It’s the act between a husband and wife. There are barrier methods that will allow for the penis to enter a woman, as well as touch her flesh. Sperm can still be released into the woman, but depending on the method, there will be some other obstacle in the way for the sperm. They aren’t as effective as a condom, but they’re still there. Anyways, the unitive act itself is a sharing in mutual, self-giving pleasure and love.

If you’re saying that you can’t hold back your fertility and claim spiritual union, then you’re arguing against the NFP method as well, which the Church endorses. The only difference between NFP and a barrier method is which part of the equation they try to subtract. Barrier methods prevent sperm from fertilizing the ovum, and NFP is used to time the moment where fertilization is highly improbable – to the degree where it would be considered an efficient contraception tool. NFP tries to keep the egg out of the equation, and I believe I’ve heard that it may rely on times where the endometrium is thinned, and thus making implantation harder, or impossible.

With that declaration in mind, what do you have to say about oral contraceptives? Or Nuva Rings? The patch?
NFP is not contraceptive. It does not hold anything back. It does not prevent anything that could happen from happening. Contraception does that. The church does not object to family planning or birth control for the sake of the family, the church or society. It objects to contraception- acts which destroy the meaning of the marital act which is total giving and receiving.

Read the essay by Professor May to understand what I’m getting at. The question was asked regarding using condoms for prevention of HIV but it gets to the crux of the matter.

fatherjoe.wordpress.com/2006/05/12/condoms-intercourse-aids-among-infertile-couples/
When spouses choose to use condoms they change the act they perform from one of true marital union (the marriage act) into a different kind of act. The ‘language of the body’ [to use Pope John Paul II’s way of speaking] is changed. In the marital act their bodies speak the language of a mutual giving and receiving, the language of an unreserved and oblative gift. Condomistic intercourse does not speak this language; it mutilates the language of the body, and the act chosen is more similar to masturbation than it is to the true marital act.”
Unitive isn’t just the couple making each other feel good. It is forming the one flesh union .It is a sacramental action also.As May says-
Condomistic sex is not unitive. In and through it husband and wife do not become “one flesh.” Husbands and wives have the right to engage in the conjugal or marital act, one not intentionally “closed” to either the unitive or procreative goods of marriage. They have no right to condomistically facilitated sexual activity, which is intentionally closed to the unitive, one-flesh good of marriage. Condoms do not make them one flesh.
 
OK – at least I know how to try the explanations from my point of view!

Sorry to repeat myself, but the issue is not about the morality of avoiding pregnancy. You are trying to frame the discussion on the mental intentions of a couple. And there is much valid discussion that can be made about that. But the morality of “barrier methods vs. NFP” is on TOTALLY different grounds.

Let’s go back to the example used near the beginning of this thread. By your logic a person who skips a meal to try and lose weight is on the same moral par as someone who eats but then intentionally throws it up!

I’m saying: No, let’s assume the two people have a good reason to lose weight. We must now discuss the proper actions to take in order to lose weight, and obviously it’s moral to skip a meal, while immoral to intentionally puke it up. And it’s not merely because it wastes food or may harm the body. There’s something intuitively wrong about separating the two aspects of food.
The analogy doesn’t work at all. Tying bulimia to condom usage from the beginning only serves to put it in an unfavorable position to begin with – and that, sir, is intellectually dishonest. You said it yourself:
obviously it’s moral to skip a meal, while immoral to intentionally puke it up
So, in an argument that seeks to provide truth over persuasion, I’d prefer that you try not to analogize the situation. Analogies, more often than not, tend promote our own biases over the truth. By no means is “Natural Family Planning” the natural way of planning a family, and I do not have the charity to equate it to “skipping a meal”.

So! Persuasiveness aside, let’s try to discuss the nitty-gritty details. Natural Family Planning is exploiting the term of a woman’s ovulation when the egg simply isn’t there, or when the probability of fertilization and implantation are low. How low? According to it’s supporters, low enough to equate it to other birth control methods in the accuracy of pregnancy prevention.
Ovulation-Calculator.com:
Luteal Phase: During the luteal phase, either conception takes place and the fertilized egg (embryo) implants in the uterus (pregnancy), or conception does not occur and the egg simply disintegrates. If pregnancy is achieved, a hormonal signal is sent to the corpus luteum to continue producing progesterone in order to maintain the pregnancy. If pregnancy is not achieved, progesterone levels will gradually fall and a woman’s body will prepare itself for menstruation.
Now, you argue that procreation is the aspect that barrier methods are designed to thwart, no? Well, I would agree, actually. How can a sperm fertilize a non-existent egg that dissolved a day after it was released? NFP can be used for contraception. You’re thwarting the procreative aspect by eliminating the presence of the egg.

How could I make this into an analogy? Let’s say that two people are robbing two stores. One decided the method they’d rob the store because the door was open. The other used a brick. Both are robbing the store. In the case of NFP vs. Birth Control, both are thwarting the procreative aspects of sex.

Now, with whatever reasoning you’ve made for making NFP morally acceptable, take that and apply that to barrier methods. The world’s happy again.
 
The analogy doesn’t work at all. Tying bulimia to condom usage from the beginning only serves to put it in an unfavorable position to begin with – and that, sir, is intellectually dishonest. You said it yourself.

So, in an argument that seeks to provide truth over persuasion, I’d prefer that you try not to analogize the situation. Analogies, more often than not, seek to promote our own biases more than they seek to discover the truth. By no means is “Natural Family Planning” the natural way of planning a family, and I do not have the charity to equate it to “skipping a meal”.

Persuasiveness aside, let’s try to discuss the nitty-gritty details. Natural Family Planning is exploiting the term of a woman’s ovulation cycle when the egg simply isn’t there, or the probabilities of pregnancy are low. How low? According to it’s supporters, low enough to equate it to other birth control methods in the accuracy of pregnancy prevention.

Now, you argue that procreation is the aspect that barrier methods are designed to thwart, no? Well, I would agree, actually. How can a sperm fertilize a non-existent egg that dissolved a day after it was released? NFP can be used for contraception. You’re thwarting the procreative aspect by eliminating the presence of the egg.

How could I make this into an analogy? Let’s say that two people are robbing two stores. One decided the method they’d rob the store because the door was open. The other used a brick. Both are robbing the store. In the case of NFP vs. Birth Control, both are thwarting the procreative aspects of sex.

Now, with whatever reasoning you’ve made for making NFP morally acceptable, take that and apply that to barrier methods. The world’s happy again.
To start with, what makes you think I am a “sir”? 🙂

I’m sorry that you cannot see how to equate NFP with skipping a meal. It’s a very straightforward analogy. You say that it’s unfair to connect it with intentionally throwing up – but I would simply ask you why intentionally throwing up a meal is bad? If you can answer that, then we can see if the leap to birth control is feasible.

Yes, analogies can only go so far, but I again have to point out that you are hung up on the ends while I am discussing the means.

To make use of your analogy of robbing a store: I would say that both people would be arrested and charged with robbery. However, the second person has the additional charge of breaking the window with a brick.

Let’s back that up and plug in contraception: The NFP couple and the condom couple are both “guilty” of wishing to avoid pregnancy. The condom couple has the additional charge of using artificial means to do so.

But here’s the part you continually miss – there is no “crime” in wishing to avoid pregnancy. So again using your analogy, the robbery charges are dropped. Guess what? There’s still the charge of the broken window!

Since we’re hopelessly lost in analogies, yours makes me think of another (sorry).
Suppose two couples are having a little financial trouble, and can’t stand to have any more bills come in the mail. The NFP-style couple will simply avoid buying a few things and skip eating out for a couple of months. The “condom” couple will not change their lifestyle, but they will then have to do something “artificial” to thwart the bills when they come, or at least scramble to pay them with money they barely have.

I’m not saying there’s anything immoral about running up a credit card balance (unless one knows that it will never be paid). But I’m trying to show you a difference between those two choices. You keep trying to say that NFP vs. condoms are essentially the same because of the end result. I agree the result is the same. But HOW you get that result is a critical element of Catholic moral theology.

BTW, did you get a chance to read the items from Seatuck’s post or Mark’s? Since my explanations seem to be falling flat, their links may be very helpful.
 
NFP is not contraceptive. It does not hold anything back. It does not prevent anything that could happen from happening.
NFP, when used as contraception, is contraception. It seeks to eliminate the egg from the equation: Sperm + Egg = Blastocyst ?
The church does not object to family planning or birth control for the sake of the family, the church or society. It objects to contraception- acts which destroy the meaning of the marital act which is total giving and receiving.
Every Pope that has supported NFP supported it as a contraceptive alternative to celibacy. They’ve called on Science to make it perfect.

For the record, the definition for contraception, according to Merriam-Webster is:
"http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/CONTRACEPTION:
deliberate prevention of conception or impregnation
Basically, it’s contra-conception. 🙂 NFP is a sexual practice used to deliberately prevent conception by determining a woman’s place in her cycle of fertility. NFP tries to p(name removed by moderator)oint the times when sexual activity may occur in the absence of an egg. By every definition, NFP is contraception.

What NFP is not, however, is a prophylactic. A prophylactic is a barrier method.
Unitive isn’t just the couple making each other feel good. It is forming the one flesh union .It is a sacramental action also.As May says-
I find that your definition of the “unitive” aspect of procreation to be a degradation of the idea. You’re insisting on the biological, more than the spiritual, symbolic unity of the act. Unity between man and woman is not found when a man’s penis touches the woman’s vagina. That would make the sexual act between a rapist and their victim unitive. The unitive nature is the mutual consent of each partner, and their self-giving pleasure in the act.

As for the interpretation of “one flesh” in Genesis, that depends entirely on the interpretation of your source to fit their argument.

Also, keep in mind that not all barrier methods holistically separate penis from vagina.
 
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