Barrier Method vs. NFP

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vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

This part of Humanae Vitae explains periodic abstainance in a clear and beautiful way!
Recourse to Infertile Periods
  1. Now as We noted earlier (no. 3), some people today raise the objection against this particular doctrine of the Church concerning the moral laws governing marriage, that human intelligence has both the right and responsibility to control those forces of irrational nature which come within its ambit and to direct them toward ends beneficial to man. Others ask on the same point whether it is not reasonable in so many cases to use artificial birth control if by so doing the harmony and peace of a family are better served and more suitable conditions are provided for the education of children already born. To this question We must give a clear reply. The Church is the first to praise and commend the application of human intelligence to an activity in which a rational creature such as man is so closely associated with his Creator. But she affirms that this must be done within the limits of the order of reality established by God.
If therefore there are well-grounded reasons for spacing births, arising from the physical or psychological condition of husband or wife, or from external circumstances, the Church teaches that married people may then take advantage of the natural cycles immanent in the reproductive system and engage in marital intercourse only during those times that are infertile, thus controlling birth in a way which does not in the least offend the moral principles which We have just explained. (20)
Neither the Church nor her doctrine is inconsistent when she considers it lawful for married people to take advantage of the infertile period but condemns as always unlawful the use of means which directly prevent conception, even when the reasons given for the later practice may appear to be upright and serious. In reality, these two cases are completely different. In the former the married couple rightly use a faculty provided them by nature. In the later they obstruct the natural development of the generative process. It cannot be denied that in each case the married couple, for acceptable reasons, are both perfectly clear in their intention to avoid children and wish to make sure that none will result. But it is equally true that it is exclusively in the former case that husband and wife are ready to abstain from intercourse during the fertile period as often as for reasonable motives the birth of another child is not desirable. And when the infertile period recurs, they use their married intimacy to express their mutual love and safeguard their fidelity toward one another. In doing this they certainly give proof of a true and authentic love.
The church does not teach that every act of intercourse must result in a pregnancy. Every act of intercourse does not result in a pregnancy, this is not biologically possible. The Church understands there atre times when a couple need to avoid having a child. How does one achieve that goal? By periodically abstaining…and nothing else.

A couple using a condom is HAVING SEX REGARDLESS OF A WOMAN’S FERTILITY. THEY WANT THE SEX WITHOUT ANY CONSEQUENCES. THEY WANT SEX DURING THE TIME WHEN A BABY CAN COME ABOUT AND DON’T WANT THE BABY. THEY ARTIFICIALLY REMOVE THE POSSIBILITY OF A BABY.

A couple that are using NFP to avoid ARE NOT HAVING SEX. THEY ARE NOT FORCING THE WOMAN TO BE INFERTILE. IF THEY HAVE RELATIONS ON NON-FERTILE DAYS…SHE IS NATURALLY INFERTILE. NATURALLY!

How is that so hard to understand??. Knowledge of NFP has been around in a rudimentary way. for DECADES. The Church has never condemned it.

The Church has said it is legitamate means to space children. It’s one thing to not understand it. Another to say the Church is wrong.

THE CHURCH IS NOT WRONG! Even if many disagree, the Church on this issue is correct.
 
Yes, it is easy to grasp. The problem is not about particular arguments. The problem is about authority. The Church has the authority in this matter and She presents logical and clear explanations. The point is that the explanation, no matter how clear, will not be accepted by those who refuse to be convinced. See, it is not about sexual ethics or devices, or charts. It is about docile submission to Christ through His Church.
‘My arguments are solid, people are just jerks.’

Ya, no fallacy there. Ever think to read the responses to your posts- where people outline their objections?
 
‘My arguments are solid, people are just jerks.’

Ya, no fallacy there. Ever think to read the responses to your posts- where people outline their objections?
No one said jerks and it is not my opinion in this thread but Church teaching. Now, either Christ is the authority behind the Church or He is not. Plenty of logical, cogent, reasons have been given to explain Church teaching. People reject that teaching. That is not proof the teaching is invalid.

People can object to 2+2=4, but that is no evidence it is incorrect.
 
[85](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/85.htm’)😉 "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

[86](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/86.htm’)😉 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."48

[87](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/87.htm’)😉 Mindful of Christ’s words to his apostles: “He who hears you, hears me”,49 the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.

**2037 **The law of God entrusted to the Church is taught to the faithful as the way of life and truth. The faithful therefore have the *right *to be instructed in the divine saving precepts that purify judgment and, with grace, heal wounded human reason. They have the *duty *of observing the constitutions and decrees conveyed by the legitimate authority of the Church. Even if they concern disciplinary matters, these determinations call for docility in charity.
 
No one said jerks and it is not my opinion in this thread but Church teaching. Now, either Christ is the authority behind the Church or He is not. Plenty of logical, cogent, reasons have been given to explain Church teaching. People reject that teaching. That is not proof the teaching is invalid.

People can object to 2+2=4, but that is no evidence it is incorrect.
People give logical justifications for lots of things, and lots of people reject those things. This could mean, among other things, that the proof is insufficient or that the listener is biased against the speaker. You seem to have decided that there is no way the arguments aren’t solid- so those who reject it must be biased.
 
People give logical justifications for lots of things, and lots of people reject those things. This could mean, among other things, that the proof is insufficient or that the listener is biased against the speaker. You seem to have decided that there is no way the arguments aren’t solid- so those who reject it must be biased.
Truth cannot contradict truth. Either one side is correct and one side wrong or both are wrong. Seeing as how Christ founded His Church and promised the keys to Peter I find it hard to reconcile your position with His.
 
Truth cannot contradict truth. Either one side is correct and one side wrong or both are wrong. Seeing as how Christ founded His Church and promised the keys to Peter I find it hard to reconcile your position with His.
Why do you even bother engaging in debate if you’re going to throw out "lulz infallibility’?
 
You find truth by examining claims, not deciding “these claims over here can’t be wrong”
So, there is a truth but you cannot know it?

Truth is a person, He founded a Church, His authority rests with the magisterium.

Who is your authority?
 
It is not about likelihood of conception. It is about having the act correctly ordered. It is always a life offering act if it is not altered.
This is an excellent comment. NFP does not alter. It uses the knowledge – and Questionful, that use could even be for a sinful purpose, such as a couple from the very start always wanting to be child-free. But barrier methods by their very nature are sinful because of the direct separation of love-giving and life-giving.

My continual point in discussion has been about the intrinsic nature of the act or method, not the motivation behind it. Another thread should be started if we want to discuss the contraceptive mentality and whether it is always sinful.
 
This is an excellent comment. NFP does not alter. It uses the knowledge – and Questionful, that use could even be for a sinful purpose, such as a couple from the very start always wanting to be child-free. But barrier methods by their very nature are sinful because of the direct separation of love-giving and life-giving.

My continual point in discussion has been about the intrinsic nature of the act or method, not the motivation behind it. Another thread should be started if we want to discuss the contraceptive mentality and whether it is always sinful.
HV says:
The Church, nevertheless, in urging men to the observance of the precepts of the natural law, which it interprets by its constant doctrine, teaches that each and every marital act must of necessity retain its intrinsic relationship to the procreation of human life. (12)
I think this point is missed often. It is not that conception must be likely to happen each time. It is that the act is oriented toward life even if one is infertile through no fault of their own.
 
So, there is a truth but you cannot know it?
There is a truth, but you have to determine it.
Truth is a person, He founded a Church, His authority rests with the magisterium.
Really now? That’s the subject of a separate debate.
Who is your authority?
You need authority to make ‘self evident’ proclamations (those with no justification.) The Church does not claim this power. Neither do I.
 
Please, let’s try to keep the thread on subject, gentlemen. I’d rather not have this discussion be derailed, and then locked. We are not having arguing whether the Church has the Authority to teach what it does, but we’re arguing on the morality of the means of contraception. So please, if you’d like to discuss what infallibility means, and how it functions within the Church, then please open another thread for that discussion.

Fix, you made a quote earlier about the Bible and Contraception, and I’d like to try to tie it into this discussion on the morality of barrier methods. You say:
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Fix:
Contraception has always been seen as evil. Even the bible states this.
Before I say anything else about your claim on the Bible’s stance of contraception, I’d like to point out that NFP is a method of contraception. The methodology behind it prevents conception (life), and for that reason, it falls under your definition of contraception.
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Fix:
Contraception means against life or against the beginning.
The couple using NFP as a contraceptive do not want life coming from the planned sexual act.

Back to your claim regarding the Bible and contraception:
Where in the Bible does it state that GOD is against contraception? Are you going to quote Onan’s story for me to read? Or will you talk to me about how men who’ve had their testicles crushed will not enter the Kingdom of GOD?

If you’re going to argue from Onan, I’d just like to point out that the method employed there was Coitus Interruptus, not a barrier method. I’d also like to point out that Onan probably wasn’t killed because he’d pulled out before ejaculation. If that were the case, many more men would have died in the past, and would continue to die today at the hands of GOD for pulling out before they climaxed.

There is no explicit condemnation of Onan’s means of contraception warranting his punishment. Most people, and theologians would probably agree that his punishment was due to his grave disrespect for Judah, Er, and Tamar.

If a point were to be made about contraception in the Bible, don’t you think GOD would also turn his judgment towards those who used herbal abortificiaents, and barrier methods as well? Especially since pennyroyal and silphium were so widely used for their abortive properties in the time of Jesus? Wouldn’t the Old Testament make some mention of GOD’s displeasure with the Egyptians when they used stem pessaries as a barrier method? Especially when we can date the use of those objects back to 1850 BC?

I think that you should place more emphasis on describing the Tradition of the Church on the morality of contraception. Show me where the Tradition on the morality of contraception began, and the reasoning behind it. The Bible does nothing to address the issue of contraception.
 
No, it has not been acknowledged as an infallible by the Ordinary and Universal Magesterium, and it has not always been taught within the Church hierarchy.

The Winnipeg Statement, and various debates amongst Bishops, Priests, Theologians, etc. demonstrate that there is no consensus among all Bishops that the teaching on contraception is unchangable truth.

Always? How far back does “always” date? Castii Connubii, to my knowledge, is the earliest encyclical to address the issue of birth regulation, and it was only promulgated by Pope Pius XI on 12/31/1930. So, I think it’d be closer to say that this position on birth regulation has only been circulated since 1931. The next encyclical of the subject was Humanae Vitae, which was promulgated by Pope

Would I be wrong to assume that by CCC, you mean the Catechism of the Catholic Church? If that’s true, then that only represents the current moral teachings observed by the of the Church. Whether they’re taught, or believed to be true by the Laity, and all Priests/Bishops/etc. is a different matter entirely. But if you meant something else by CCC, feel free to correct me.
The problem with the “progressive” interpretation is typical in how it completely eviscerates Catholic teaching. If there is to be such a thing as the infallible teaching of the universal and ordinary magisterium, then it must somehow be able to function. But the typical progressive throws out objections, which if they are of the right sort, would totally obliterate the very possibility that, when a doctrine becomes controversial, that the Church could appeal to the universal magisterium. We all have heard the typical objections, including the facile objection (which boils down to such a statement) that if one bishop currently dissents to doctrine X, that doctrine X can’t possibly be infallible by means of the universal and ordinary magisterium. But if the infallibility of the Church cannot function in cases of controversy, then the doctrine is simply pointless and wrong.

But the simple fact is that the Church does teach that there is such a thing as the infallibility of the ordinary magisterium-- and it did so officially during Vatican II. There is no option to reject it, and so we need to reject these ridiculous attempts to explain away Church doctrine.

What is really at the root of almost all contemporary dissident theology is the overwhelming urge to reject traditional Catholic teaching on contraception. John Finnis in his book on “Moral Absolutes” tells a very convincing story about how an entire revolution in Catholic ethics was made simply to accommodate a willful move to reject the teaching on contraception.

And so at the root of most dissident theology is the rejection of infallibility period, and not just of the infallibility of the ordinary magisterium. Rejecting the latter is bad enough, but rejecting the former is plain insane. In order to be consistent, the person in favor of contraception needs to throw out far too much of Christianity to justify the “cost” or the “purchase price” of contraception.

As to where it is marked as infallible-- it seems that the successor of Peter has confirmed that the teaching is infallible in Humanae Vitae, and indeed, the CDF backed this interpretation. The infallibility of the ordinary magisterium must work in some way. The typical progressivist wants to object that we need some sort of infinite regress of infallible definitions-- in effect, to say that no doctrine can be defined as infallible by the ordinary magisterium, because ultimately we would need an extraordinary act of infallibility in order for it to be binding. Like I said above, this is all absurd because it refuses to play with the rules of the game. For if the infallibility of the ordinary magisterium requires an infallible act of the extraordinary magisterium, then there simply is no such thing as the infallibility of the ordinary magisterium. It is merely a fiction.

God bless you, Questionful. Feel free to keep questioning, but please also commit this to serious pray, and read serious philosophical and theological sources in favor of the Church’s doctrine before you decide definitely against it.

In Christ,
Rob
 
Before I say anything else about your claim on the Bible’s stance of contraception, I’d like to point out that NFP is a method of contraception. The methodology behind it prevents conception (life), and for that reason, it falls under your definition of contraception.
This is true, which is why in this thread we should be saying artificial contraception. The Church is not against the desire to avoid conception. The Church is against direct actions which are meant to thwart conception while allowing the sexual act.
 
The church does not teach that every act of intercourse must result in a pregnancy. Every act of intercourse does not result in a pregnancy, this is not biologically possible. The Church understands there atre times when a couple need to avoid having a child. How does one achieve that goal? By periodically abstaining…and nothing else.
I’m not saying that it must, and I’m not asking for what is impossible. What I’m saying is that deliberately planning sex so that sex only occurs during a woman’s infertility. The reason why we had faulted condoms in the first place is because it was a deliberate action against the fertility of the act. Planning your sex so that you can have sex outside of the fertile phases of a woman’s cycle is a deliberate action against the fertility of the act.
A couple using a condom is HAVING SEX REGARDLESS OF A WOMAN’S FERTILITY. THEY WANT THE SEX WITHOUT ANY CONSEQUENCES. THEY WANT SEX DURING THE TIME WHEN A BABY CAN COME ABOUT AND DON’T WANT THE BABY. THEY ARTIFICIALLY REMOVE THE POSSIBILITY OF A BABY.
A couple using NFP is having sex deliberately during infertility. The want sex without any consequences. They are having sex during the time when a baby can’t/shouldn’t possibly come, and do not want the baby that may come of their errors. They, by sexual behavior, and by technology, do what is unnatural, and determine whether sex is fertile or not. By doing this, they remove the possibility of a baby.
A couple that are using NFP to avoid ARE NOT HAVING SEX. THEY ARE NOT FORCING THE WOMAN TO BE INFERTILE. IF THEY HAVE RELATIONS ON NON-FERTILE DAYS…SHE IS NATURALLY INFERTILE. NATURALLY!
A couple using NFP to avoid pregnancy are having sex. Neither NFP nor condoms force a woman to be infertile, but they do cause the act to be infertile. In both cases, a woman is naturally infertile when she is infertile.
How is that so hard to understand??. Knowledge of NFP has been around in a rudimentary way. for DECADES. The Church has never condemned it.
How is it so hard to understand that they’re both methods of manipulating the properties of life, and no matter how different the means are physically, they are both of the same gravity because of what they as acts symbolize? To quote Cardinal Konig on the matter “Here [on birth regulation] we have ended up in a bottleneck above all because of the distinction (cast into doubt even by medicine) between ’artificial’ and ’natural,’ as if even from the moral viewpoint what is important is the ’trick’ of cheating nature.”

The Church as a a whole may not condemn NFP, but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t those in the Church who do. Just because a Church does not condemn something for a while doesn’t make it right, or more right than what it has condemned in the past.

If you want to reflect on evils that the Church did not actively condemn, or speak out against what was morally wrong, then here’s are two things you should consider: Holocaust, and the Spanish Inquisition. Whether the Church speaks against it or not, that’s not the question. We’re talking about intrinsic neutrality, and intrinsic evil. We’re not discussing the Authority of the Church. So, if you’d like to discuss that, please do so in another thread.

I apologize to Surriter, and others whose posts I have not been able to properly address at the moment. Please keep in mind that the majority of you are responding to me, and that I only have two hands to respond to you with. 😛
 
This is true, which is why in this thread we should be saying artificial contraception. The Church is not against the desire to avoid conception. The Church is against direct actions which are meant to thwart conception while allowing the sexual act.
Surriter, I’m sorry that I haven’t been able to respond to your other post yet. I may or may not be able to get to it tonight. 😛 I didn’t want to come off as negligent, so I figured I’d just give you a heads up.

But since I have enough time and space to address this post with the time I do have…
I’d have to disagree with your point there. By saying artificial, you’re making the argument way too complex for me, and I’d rather not have to argue the morality of hormonal birth control, IUDs, spermicides, sterilization, etc.

I’d prefer that we stick to barrier methods just for the time being.

I also have to disagree with your last point in this post. The Church does allow for direct actions that are meant to thwart conception while allowing the sexual act. If that weren’t the case, NFP would not be allowed. Please don’t misunderstand my disagreement as a game of semantics, as I really don’t mean for it to have that purpose. Rather, I’m trying to assert a point that I’ve been trying to make all along: NFP is being directly used to thwart conception, and the fertility of the sexual act.

In my previous post, I quoted the deceased Cardinal Konig on his stance on the matter: that this is just an argument for which method of tricking nature is the most moral.
 
I think this point is missed often. It is not that conception must be likely to happen each time. It is that the act is oriented toward life even if one is infertile through no fault of their own.
So you’re saying that, even though a person doesn’t want to have children sooo~ much that they are taking precautions to avoid conception, they still have to act like they’re still trying to conceive?

And that’s what is supposed to make NFP moral? In light of all that you’ve done to thwart conception, you have to pretend that you’re trying to have a child? The intrinsic morality of having a child is ejaculation? That can’t be right, because then hormonal birth control would be valid in the eyes of the Church.

I’d love to see this reasoning applied to develop a pro-active stance on artificial insemination, though. What a grand old play that would be.

Also, 2+2=4, but it can also equal 5 for extremely large values of two. So, people could object, and still be right. Both quantities have been rounded down to two, but quantitatively, they still equal 5 when combined.
 
Just something to think about:

Are you aware that NFP is also used by those who are TRYING to get pregnant, and I knew a few girls in college that used it simply to keep track of the regularity of their cycles because their menstrual periods were often irregular… they were not sexually active at all.

NFP allows people to be aware of the natural fertility cycle given to us by God. So NFP in an of itself CANNOT be (and isn’t) immoral, whereas barrier methods are.

I’m unsure how you think knowing one’s cycle and abstaining from sex for a couple days is taking a direct action…? It’s actually a lack of action.
 
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