bartholomew-to-reinvigorate-dialogue-with-catholics

[RyanBlack]

My question is still: doesn’t every Church go-er follow someone they believe to be teaching the truth infallibily even if the priest/minister doesn’t claim to be infallible?

No, absolutely not. Neither the Orthodox nor Protestants think in such terms. Do they approach someone for counsel believing that they will most likely be given good advice? Of course, otherwise, they would not have sought out the advice in the first place. However, infallibility does not allow for the possibility of error, and the Orthodox and Protestants simply have no such expectation from a****ny mere human.

 

[RyanBlack]

I am not making any assumptions or accusations - I am just asking “don’t we all have a leader that we trust and follow without question?”

Not in a manner that corresponds to Catholic faith in papal infallibility.

 

[dvdjs]

You are sadly mistaken and I see this as an attack on holy Russia.
If there are better examples…there surely are not many. The Russian Church and the people overcame unspeakable brutality. The metanoia continues to this day. The return to holy Orthodoxy is inspiring to see after decades of atheistic communism and an attempt to completely eliminate the fath.
You know quite well (in your continuing attack) that some were weak…and could not bear martydom…others gave their lives.
There were tens of thousands of holy martyrs. And I believe there was a great metanoia which continues to this day.
Ah…if only America could emulate some of what you call this “same business as usual.”
I think you are showing a great bias and misunderstanding of holy Russia.
Nonsense. They continue to deal with their past and the great teaching they have to offer does not miraculously disappear. There are many new holy Russian martyrs who are praying for the world…they even pray for you as you continue your calumny.
It will be glorious when they all completely embrace the holy faith.
You are the one who is whitewashing the situation in your anger and bias…this saddens me greatly. Russia will truly convert the world.
I think that you worship at an OCA Church. I will pray that your heart becomes less hardened.

This is great.
Do you write here: theoniondome.com/?

 

[dvdjs]

Just because in one case the outcome is good and in the other it is bad, it does not change the fact that an abuse of power is an abuse of power, and that the ends do not always justify the means. Economia is a Christian concept, not Machiavellian.
No, that’s not what I wrote. I am only affirming that using the civil authorities to settle ecclesiastical disputes ought not to be done, as the Scriptures teach us.
Nor is it your call what qualifies as an abuse, so I suppose we are at an impasse. But seeing as you are not an Orthodox bishop, or even Orthodox, your opinion matters even less than what you appraise mine to be worth on this matter.

It is fine that we disagree on this. I give the EO bishops more of the benefit of the doubt.

No question is being sidestepped. Bishops are all equal in power, but not in practice. You are trying to spring this line of questioning up as if it were some sort of earth-shattering problem for the affirmation that all bishops are equal, but that is clearly not what the Orthodox mean by the affirmation that all bishops are equal.

I think the question is illuminating. It leads to “Bishops are all equal in power, but not in practice.”, which I don’t think answers the question at all.

What does this mean, except to say that since Constantinople abused its position of primacy, people should not be so uncomfortable with an imperial papacy.

It means multiple things. First, imperial elements associated with some authority are neither necessary nor sufficient for the abuse of power. Second, that the fear of abuse by Rome is, historically, overblown - perhaps as you suggest by projecting onto Rome the troubling experiences with the EP.

This again presupposes some sort of teleological model which sees the development of the Ecumenical Patriarchate as some sort of motion towards a purpose or end. This is why you seem to treat (erroneously in my opinion) the weaker Ecumenical Patriarchate of today as being an aberration, against the historical trend, while I do not, because I reject this sort of thinking where there is an ideal (or even “historical”) model of primacy towards which the Ecumenical Patriarchate develops over time.

Institutions do evolve - but that does not imply some sort of intelligent design of the instituion, it’s just the historical imprint of those in a position to make history.

I do not see the EP of today as an aberration, rather I see its trend from inception to its apex, its growth in power and influence, and particularly its contention with Rome as the aberration.

 

[lax16]

No, absolutely not. Neither the Orthodox nor Protestants think in such terms. Do they approach someone for counsel believing that they will most likely be given good advice? Of course, otherwise, they would not have sought out the advice in the first place. However, infallibility does not allow for the possibility of error, and the Orthodox and Protestants simply have no such expectation from a****ny mere human.

Not in a manner that corresponds to Catholic faith in papal infallibility.

RyanBlack - Thanks for your responses!

 

[ConstantineTG]

Can an Orthodox answer this for me please?

If a priest counsels a couple and tells them it is okay to stop at two children and also tells them due to their very busy work schedule they don’t have to attend Sunday Church on a regular basis, is the priest speaking with authority?

What are the official teachings on these two matters?

thanks!

This matter is hard to discuss. Either it is fictional, or a story of an actual event and lacks a lot of other details. A good spiritual father will have to ask many questions and understand the complete situation of a spiritual child to give them advice on such matters. Is it impossible for the person to not work on a Sunday? Are they financially burdened that they cannot afford not to take that job? So many other questions need to be asked before anyone can even give a good advice on this matter. If the priest is a good spiritual father to his flock, then he will understand as much as he can the entire situation and advice accordingly. If he exempts anyone from Sunday Liturgy for any amount of time, then it should be trusted that it is justified and that every avenue have been explored to get the person to church on Sunday before settling for this option. I highly doubt that such conversations as simplistic as you presented it would take place, though also it wouldn’t surprise me if there is. The priesthood is not magic, it doesn’t instantly transform a man into a great spiritual father. In fact, true spiritual fathers are rare, even among monks they are rare. So a priest himself can make mistakes, they are human beings after all.

 

[Mickey]

Didn’t Jesus Christ leave authority with His Church on earth?

And He is with us unto the end of time.

 

[Mickey]

Yo Mick,
This be what the CCC is…

Yo Copt…I know what it be. And I know what it is not.

 

[Mickey]

This is great.

Not really.

Do you write here:

No. Do you?

 

[lax16]

This matter is hard to discuss. Either it is fictional, or a story of an actual event and lacks a lot of other details. A good spiritual father will have to ask many questions and understand the complete situation of a spiritual child to give them advice on such matters. Is it impossible for the person to not work on a Sunday? Are they financially burdened that they cannot afford not to take that job? So many other questions need to be asked before anyone can even give a good advice on this matter. If the priest is a good spiritual father to his flock, then he will understand as much as he can the entire situation and advice accordingly. If he exempts anyone from Sunday Liturgy for any amount of time, then it should be trusted that it is justified and that every avenue have been explored to get the person to church on Sunday before settling for this option. I highly doubt that such conversations as simplistic as you presented it would take place, though also it wouldn’t surprise me if there is. The priesthood is not magic, it doesn’t instantly transform a man into a great spiritual father. In fact, true spiritual fathers are rare, even among monks they are rare. So a priest himself can make mistakes, they are human beings after all.

Hello Constantine - I only know what was said to me. I asked no questions of my friend at the time because I didn’t feel it was my place to question her personal choices.

The wife stated that their reason for stopping at two children was because “our priest told us it was okay”. (I am guessing she brought it up because we were expecting #4 in our early 40’s).
She then made a comment about her resting on Sundays because her priest says she works so much during the week (and she is a very hard working woman and mother) that she can miss sometimes. She would often entertain on the weekends and brought it up at dinner one night.

I know that there are many kinds of priests. Honestly, my questions go back to: where are the teachings to be found in Orthodoxy, does one need to consult a priest on such matters (as opposed to reading a catechism, for example), and by following a priest’s direction on such matters does it make the priest the absolute authority?

 

[Reuben_J]

I know that there are many kinds of priests. Honestly, my questions go back to: where are the teachings to be found in Orthodoxy, does one need to consult a priest on such matters (as opposed to reading a catechism, for example), and by following a priest’s direction on such matters does it make the priest the absolute authority?

Hi lax16. That is a very tough question. There were no birth control pills, no euthanasia, no stem cell technology, etc., one thousand years ago. And yet these are very important aspects and parts of our lives today that would touch on our belief and spirituality. They should not be taken lightly though because their usage would have to face the word of God itself. So, it is a tough question.

The thousands of Christian churches we have today do have variable stands and teachings on these issues on which their followers have to follow respectively. Other churches perhaps would leave it to their followers’ discretion on what to do when faced with these dilemmas.

If priests are given discretion to give advice, they would invariably give varieties of advices if they have no official church teaching as guideline on how to deal with these modern phenomena. And if that is so, then each priest is like a church of his own.

 

[Mickey]

and by following a priest’s direction on such matters does it make the priest the absolute authority?

Again, Christ is the absolute authority.

The spiritual father in the Orthodox Church is also usually one’s confessor. Direction is given based on Sacred Scripture, Councils, Synods, Church Fathers, Sacred Tradition, etc.

This question has been answered for you.

 

[CopticChristian]

Again, Christ is the absolute authority.

The spiritual father in the Orthodox Church is also usually one’s confessor. Direction is given based on Sacred Scripture, Councils, Synods, Church Fathers, Sacred Tradition, etc.

This question has been answered for you.

Yo Mick,

What think ye of this here site with Catechism postings about Orthodoxy?

orthodoxeurope.org/page/10/1.aspx#33

 

[Mickey]

Yo Mick,

What think ye of this here site with Catechism postings about Orthodoxy?

Yo Copt…me thinks it is a nice little site…what’s your point?

 

[CopticChristian]

Yo Copt…me thinks it is a nice little site…what’s your point?

Yo Mick

Point was, what think ye, and ye have thought, it is a reference that you find acceptable…

 

[Mickey]

Yo Mick

Point was, what think ye, and ye have thought, it is a reference that you find acceptable…

Yo Copt,

Me thinks it seems like nice reading…but I have not read the entire site.

But my spiritual father is awesome!

 

[lax16]

Again, Christ is the absolute authority.

The spiritual father in the Orthodox Church is also usually one’s confessor. Direction is given based on Sacred Scripture, Councils, Synods, Church Fathers, Sacred Tradition, etc.

This question has been answered for you.

Mickey - I am not sure why you intercept other people’s posts and answer for them…however, I don’t think it has been answered to tell you the truth.

If I have a question about birth control, I can pray about it, but I can’t ask Jesus what he thinks. So, it is difficult to use Him as an absolute authority since he never spoke about birth control.

I understand, sort of, that an Orthodox person with these questions must obviously seek out a confessor (since you are telling me so) and give an informed answer based on Sacred Scripture, Councils, etc.

I can also see that there seems to be no absolute teachings on certain things and that the Orthodox people must seek advice instead of looking it up in a catechism otherwise my friend would have done so.

 

[lax16]

Hi lax16. That is a very tough question. There were no birth control pills, no euthanasia, no stem cell technology, etc., one thousand years ago. And yet these are very important aspects and parts of our lives today that would touch on our belief and spirituality. They should not be taken lightly though because their usage would have to face the word of God itself. So, it is a tough question.

The thousands of Christian churches we have today do have variable stands and teachings on these issues on which their followers have to follow respectively. Other churches perhaps would leave it to their followers’ discretion on what to do when faced with these dilemmas.

If priests are given discretion to give advice, they would invariably give varieties of advices if they have no official church teaching as guideline on how to deal with these modern phenomena. And if that is so, then each priest is like a church of his own.

Exactly. Thank you.
Excellent response. These are new topics that we must find the answers to and that is what I was wondering about - who calls the shots if there isn’t a pope/catechism etc.?

I am not saying that the Orthodox don’t have this and don’t do this - I was asking how they handle it.

 

[Mickey]

I don’t think it has been answered to tell you the truth.

It has been answered multi[ple times by multiple posters…and yet the answer does not seem good enough for you.

If I have a question about birth control, I can pray about it, but I can’t ask Jesus what he thinks. There is a plethora of information regarding abortifacients…including quotes from the holy Church Fathers. Non-abortifacient forms are sometimes tolerated due to economia…but this has already been explained to you. NFP is sometimes used to refrain from having another child due to financial hardships. I once knew a case where the wife had two different medical conditions. The first condition made it likely that if she had another child…the pregnancy would likely kill her…at the same time…she needed to have marital relations because of a condition that caused atrophy and fusion of the genitalia. Each situation is different…and one’s spiritual father weighs each one according to Scripture, Tradition and the Holy Spirit.
lax16;10184968:

So, it is difficult to use Him as an absolute authority since he never spoke about birth control.

Really? Christ cannot be used as an absolute authority?!?!

I understand, sort of, that an Orthodox person with these questions must obviously seek out a confessor (since you are telling me so) and give an informed answer based on Sacred Scripture, Councils, etc.

The Latin Church is not very familiar with the concept of a spiritual father…he is more than a confessor. Since I am not getting the message through to you…perhaps you could talk to an Eastern Catholic…although Ryan has already tried to explain this to you.

I can also see that there seems to be no absolute teachings on certain things and that the Orthodox people must seek advice instead of looking it up in a catechism otherwise my friend would have done so.

There are infinite teachings on infinite subjects.

 

[Mickey]

who calls the shots if there isn’t a pope/catechism

Is that what this is all about…a pope and a catechism? Sheesh.

I will let others attempt to explain it to you going forward.