bartholomew-to-reinvigorate-dialogue-with-catholics

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CopticChristian said:
Chimo,

This is a rational approach to difference. We are one and need only wait for the ability for all to admit what is already there.

From the Orthodox Catechism…
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That may come in time when better educated men and women will discover this. Yes I believe we are one as well. The Lord Jesus will accomplish this when we will lower our own defences and ignorances to discover what is actually there. But to get there we cannot just let God handle it for we need to work together at this with Him to arrive to what you said earlier that we are one. We need not only to educate ourselves but to educate others. Probably this is the century when this will be possible. It took time for those to believe in the Lord when He began His three year ministry and in this same light it will take time to confirm the brethren so that we will act to accept and love each other as brothers and sisters.
 
SteveVH said:
Very beautifully put. I’ve just always wondered why the Pope’s authority and even primacy is such an issue. If we are to truly have one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church, we must have unity under one leader of that Church. The Pope is a sign of unity. I thank God for the beautiful Eastern liturgies and the adherence to the Apostolic faith. But I think the separation even between the various Eastern Orthodox Churches, along ethnic and nationalistic lines for the most part, is not what Christ intended for his Church. Can anyone imagine the power of the two coming together; the influence it would have on the rest of Christianity and the world? It is certainly something for which to pray and strive.
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Thank you, it will come and I believe the Pope will have his primacy probably not in the way that it is defined today but more in a pastoral way. His primacy I believe must be a primacy that will accept him in His pastoral roll as chief shepherd. This I believe may be acceptable to the Orthodox. Soon may be another Pope will come to accept this and define his role with better understandings towards his pastoral service rather than his political service for instance his appointment of local bishops. His primacy must be a pastoral primacy and for that the Pope will be an invalulable service for the whole Church.

The Eastern Orthodox Churches while they wrestle under ethnic lines and even nationalistic lines do not constitute an obstacle for what Christ intended for His Church. Rather they help serve Him until the Church can gather together to seperate these ethnic and nationalistic lines. These issues from the East are quite normal and they are growing to understand this but they do not make things impossible for the Church to become united otherwise Jesus would not have allowed it to happen.

The Eastern Church operates from a different set of principles and government that was guided by the same Holy Spirit who guided Rome and hopefully these two will understand these differences as correct patterns which will be solved through their mutual understanding and admiration of each other. We really do not the other I mean the average layperson. Even most of the clegy have not the slightest knowledge of who the other is. This ignorance is the real cause of our disunity. Once we discover for ourselves who the other is so does our ignorance disappear and so does our seperation. God is waiting for the laity to come to know who the other is. Popes and Patriarchs cannot do it for they need our help. One of the reasons why we did not accomplish this is the Bishops are trying to do this on their own. God showing their weaknesses wants us the Laity to contribute and become that necessary ingredients to bring forth this unity.
 
chimo said:
Thank you, it will come and I believe the Pope will have his primacy probably not in the way that it is defined today but more in a pastoral way. His primacy I believe must be a primacy that will accept him in His pastoral roll as chief shepherd. This I believe may be acceptable to the Orthodox. Soon may be another Pope will come to accept this and define his role with better understandings towards his pastoral service rather than his political service for instance his appointment of local bishops. His primacy must be a pastoral primacy and for that the Pope will be an invalulable service for the whole Church.

The Eastern Orthodox Churches while they wrestle under ethnic lines and even nationalistic lines do not constitute an obstacle for what Christ intended for His Church. Rather they help serve Him until the Church can gather together to seperate these ethnic and nationalistic lines. These issues from the East are quite normal and they are growing to understand this but they do not make things impossible for the Church to become united otherwise Jesus would not have allowed it to happen.

The Eastern Church operates from a different set of principles and government that was guided by the same Holy Spirit who guided Rome and hopefully these two will understand these differences as correct patterns which will be solved through their mutual understanding and admiration of each other. We really do not the other I mean the average layperson. Even most of the clegy have not the slightest knowledge of who the other is. This ignorance is the real cause of our disunity. Once we discover for ourselves who the other is so does our ignorance disappear and so does our seperation. God is waiting for the laity to come to know who the other is. Popes and Patriarchs cannot do it for they need our help. One of the reasons why we did not accomplish this is the Bishops are trying to do this on their own. God showing their weaknesses wants us the Laity to contribute and become that necessary ingredients to bring forth this unity.
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Chimo,
I’m so glad you have joined this forum and in particular, this thread. Your deep understanding and reason are much needed.
By the way, you spoke of “teaching” at your Church. Are you by chance a priest?
 
CopticChristian said:
Have you read the Catechism…
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Many of them.
The USA Catechism for Adults says this…
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But not this one. I am not an American.
So according to the deposit of Faith/Catechism…The Orthodox are real Churches…and the unity is not perfect…
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I’ve already noted in this thread that the Orthodox Churches are real Churches. I actually made that distinction between the true Churches of the Orthodox and the ecclesial communities of the Protestants.

Yes they are in an imperfect and substandard communion with the True Church of Rome. That’s their problem. That’s what must be reconciled.
The Orthodox are urged to respect the discipline of their own Churches and yet are welcome at the wedding supper of the lamb in the Roman/Latin Church…
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Canon 844 § 3 as explained by Cardinal Burke is not a law imposing intercommunion between the Eastern Orthodox with the True Church. And you do realise that the Orthodox discipline forbids their members from participating in the sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church?
and by inference if the Orthodox are asked to respect the discipline of their own Churches, then we should respect it as well and in turn ask that they respect the discipline of the Latin Church as you and I respect our Latin discipline…
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That’s quite a leap you just made there if I read you right. By calling to respect their disciplines… you’re actually trying to say that the Canons call for us to accept the legitimacy of their schism? No…
So have you read the Catechism in its entirety?
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Yes I have. Perhaps you yourself should revisit it and touch up on such doctrines concerning the Pope that you seem to believe are easily dismissed…

I’ll just note that this post you’ve made here has absolutely nothing to do with your original post and my response to it…
 
CopticChristian said:
Supreme and infallible within the Patriarchy of Rome…🙂
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No. Supreme and infallible in all of the particular Churches. Whether Roman or Russian. This is not negotiable for the Catholic Church. That’s what you do not understand. We Catholics believe that the Pope’s authority is not limited solely to his local Church. His authority is universal. We can’t concede on this point.
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
God forbid.
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Is it just me or is this seen as a prayer for disunity? :confused: I don’t understand this kind of response. We speak and pray in trems of unity on one hand but on the other hand WE pray and hope the HS does NOT do His work.:confused::confused::confused:
 
adf417 said:
Is it just me or is this seen as a prayer for disunity? :confused: I don’t understand this kind of response. We speak and pray in trems of unity on one hand but on the other hand WE pray and hope the HS does NOT do His work.:confused::confused::confused:
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I very strongly suspect that the response of “God forbid” was not to the idea of restoration of communion, but to the idea of restoration of communion according to the terms being set out by Laudate Dominum, which involves all of the concessions being made by the Orthodox Church, and none by the Catholic Church. If I were Orthodox, I too would respond with “God forbid.”
 
Laudate_Dominum said:
What, in your opinion, should the Catholic Church concede on?
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Crux of the problem, that. For both Churches. for the average but well schooled laity, which I think is most people on this thread, it comes down to “Which of my ‘truths’ would you have me concede in the interest of unity?”

That discussion is a non-starter if you want to talk about re-communing. IF it is to progress, the heirarchy of both Churches must determine which, if any, parts of these doctrines are unchangeable “truths,” and which are doctrines that can be redefined, or more clearly defined.

So ultimately, it’s up to people who are in a position to make those determinations. I think sometimes we laity in our fervor to be good Catholics or Orthodox cling to things that may or may not be subject to interpretation.

If every single aspect of catholicism and Orthodoxy is absolute, then we and the Churches are wasting our time.
 
Laudate_Dominum said:
No. Supreme and infallible in all of the particular Churches. Whether Roman or Russian. This is not negotiable for the Catholic Church. That’s what you do not understand. We Catholics believe that the Pope’s authority is not limited solely to his local Church. His authority is universal. We can’t concede on this point.
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LD,

Show me where Benedict says this and that the issue is concession. We be me.
 
SteveVH said:
But I think the separation even between the various Eastern Orthodox Churches, along ethnic and nationalistic lines for the most part, is not what Christ intended for his Church.
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You are mistaken. We are not separated along ethnic lines. We are united by our common Orthodox faith…just as Christ intended. I can walk into any Orthodox Church (Russian, ROCOR, OCA, Antiochian, Serbian, Greek, etc) and be warmly excepted…receive communion (if prepared), and have wonderful fellowship with the people after Liturgy. Having different ethnicities does not equate to separation. Your Eastern Catholic Churches also have various ethnic jurisdictions.
 
Mickey said:
You are mistaken. We are not separated along ethnic lines. We are united by our common Orthodox faith…just as Christ intended. I can walk into any Orthodox Church (Russian, ROCOR, OCA, Antiochian, Serbian, Greek, etc) and be warmly excepted…receive communion (if prepared), and have wonderful fellowship with the people after Liturgy. Having different ethnicities does not equate to separation. Your Eastern Catholic Churches also have various ethnic jurisdictions.
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I guess another way to look at that is that Holy Orthodoxy unites people from various ethnicities and nationalities through a common faith. As does the catholic Church, I reckon.
 
Cavaradossi said:
I think you will probably agree that historically, that intrusiveness has gone hand-in-hand with civil power, which abets abuses of power. The difference is that canonically, the Ecumenical Patriarch’s mode of jurisdiction over the whole Orthodox Church (at least as far as I am aware) remains appellate, while the jurisdiction of the Roman Pope does not.
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I am not sure about which non-canonical actions would be considered abuse, and which would be considered a wise exercise of economy.

I am also not sure that the EP has had a canonical appellate role. It has a long history of working to consolidate a privileged position, and in asserting privilege, however such actions flout the canons. The Papacy has taken a strong position on the canons, but, in contrast to the EP, has been very restrained about the exercise of its authority.
 
CopticChristian said:
LD,

Show me where Benedict says this and that the issue is concession. We be me.
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From the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Genitum 22:
But the college or body of bishops has no authority unless it is understood together with the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter as its head. The pope’s power of primacy over all, both pastors and faithful, remains whole and intact. In virtue of his office, that is as Vicar of Christ and pastor of the whole Church, the Roman Pontiff has full, supreme and universal power over the Church. And he is always free to exercise this power.
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For some reason I don’t think the Church was talking about the particular Church of Rome… I don’t need to give you a specific quote from the current Holy Father. He is not in contradiction with the constant teaching of Holy Mother the Church. LG should suffice.
 
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