bartholomew-to-reinvigorate-dialogue-with-catholics

[CopticChristian]

And nothing will come of it.

Ip,

I disagree.

I believe that if we consider that Bishops have equality of their Bishoprics and authority of their Bishoprics then all that is needed is an understanding of this…

The Bishop of Rome is representative of one Bishopric and within that Bishopric all fellow Bishops acknowledge the infallibility of that Bishop for the Bishopric of Rome…

The Bishops/Patriarchs of the Orthodox are organized differently and can unite in Eucharistic celebration…

This would be a way of looking at the understanding of unity…without infringing on Patriarch/Bishop…of other geographic areas…

Commencing with Eucharistic beliefs there can be dialogue that would follow…

 

[Mickey]

I also think that it is unlikely that any of us on this forum will see union in our lifetime. But hey…our ways are not God’s ways.

However, I would like to know what Pope Benedict meant when he said this as a Cardinal:

“Rome must not require more from the East with respect to the doctrine of primacy than had been formulated and was lived in the first millennium.”
[Joseph Ratzinger, Principles of Catholic Theology (San Francisco, CA: Ignatius Press]***

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Ip,

I disagree.

I believe that if we consider that Bishops have equality of their Bishoprics and authority of their Bishoprics then all that is needed is an understanding of this…

The Bishop of Rome is representative of one Bishopric and within that Bishopric all fellow Bishops acknowledge the infallibility of that Bishop for the Bishopric of Rome…

The Bishops/Patriarchs of the Orthodox are organized differently and can unite in Eucharistic celebration…

This would be a way of looking at the understanding of unity…without infringing on Patriarch/Bishop…of other geographic areas…

Commencing with Eucharistic beliefs there can be dialogue that would follow…

The problem with that statement is that the Pope can without the consent of the Patriarchate act in that church all by himself as is the papal claim (as I understand it, correct me if I am wrong). Orthodox cannot accept this. Perhaps this dialogue might start something, but unless one side concedes there will never be true unity.

 

[CopticChristian]

The problem with that statement is that the Pope can without the consent of the Patriarchate act in that church all by himself as is the papal claim (as I understand it, correct me if I am wrong). Orthodox cannot accept this. Perhaps this dialogue might start something, but unless one side concedes there will never be true unity.

IP,

The Patriarch acts without their district without interference. The Pope as the Bishop of Rome acts within the Bishopric of Rome that includes the 23 Rites…they respect each others districts

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

IP,

The Patriarch acts without their district without interference. The Pope as the Bishop of Rome acts within the Bishopric of Rome that includes the 23 Rites…they respect each others districts

and thats the point, Orthodox will not accept the Pope being a patriarch of the patriarch.

 

[CopticChristian]

and thats the point, Orthodox will not accept the Pope being a patriarch of the patriarch.

IP,

I am not suggesting that the Pope/Patriarch of Rome is the Patriarch of Patriarchs…

The OHCAC is formed by Bishops/Patriarchs in unity of the Eucharist…

Patriarch of Rome if you will respects the Patriarch of Constantinople not acknowledging the infallibillity that is accepted by all in the Patriarch of Rome and the Patriarch of Constantinople accepts that the Patriarch of Rome is respected as infallible within the Patriarchy of Rome…

 

[Schism_hater]

At this time I am convinced that reunion between us in this life is impossible. The Patriarchs will not recognise the Pope’s claim to universal authority and power and the Pope will not concede his claim to universal power and authoirty. And I doubt the creed in the west will ever have teh fillioque taken from it.

As a “convert” from Roman Catholicism to Orthodoxy, I disagree with your conclusion. I think it is possible in the next, say, 50 years, if God wills. There are certainly dogmatic issues to be resolved, and I agree there are big concessions that will have to come from Rome, since, not to offend anyone, but in all truth most of the doctrinal disagreements come from Roman definitions in the second millenium. But I think up until now Orthodoxy has been guilty, for its part, of exaggerating some of the differences or not trying to understand the Roman viewpoint more accurately, and I see the EP’s statement as an attempt to reverse that.

 

[CopticChristian]

As a “convert” from Roman Catholicism to Orthodoxy, I disagree with your conclusion. I think it is possible in the next, say, 50 years, if God wills. There are certainly dogmatic issues to be resolved, and I agree there are big concessions that will have to come from Rome, since, not to offend anyone, but in all truth most of the doctrinal disagreements come from Roman definitions in the second millenium. But I think up until now Orthodoxy has been guilty, for its part, of exaggerating some of the differences or not trying to understand the Roman viewpoint more accurately, and I see the EP’s statement as an attempt to reverse that.

SH,

I disagree with you in that you look at who should conceed. I would say that Arizona is behind the times when compared with California or living in Arizona is like living in California when California was in the 60’s.

To say that there must be concessions from one or the other is to suggest that whatever Rome has done in the millenium is counter to what may be considered explanation of Revelation or percieved of as invention. To conceed anything is to acknowledge one or the other. It would be perhaps better to conceed nothing and accept difference in progression of explanation of Revelation to the Patriarchs in question as the millenium and the Holy Spirit allowed.

Each Patriarchy, Rome, Constantinople, etc is responsible for explanation of Revelation to their Patriarchy without interference.

 

[adf417]

But I don’t exclude a divine miracle happening, if it be the will of God, **but I still think it will not happen **and is near impossible.

Respectfully I pray you are worng, at least on the definitive statment part…

Peace brother!!!

 

[KathleenGee]

I am getting ready for Mass and the reunification of both Churches will be my intention.

What will it take for both to get on their knees and find the way back to true communion?

Once we have full communion restored, this will be a tremendous witness to the world…so that it may believe.

 

[Mickey]

What will it take for both to get on their knees and find the way back to true communion?

Actually, I think it is quite simple. East and West were in communion for the first 1000 years. Both Churches would need to see what that communion looked like 1000 years ago.

The difficulty that the East faces…is that the West added some doctrines after the Churches split…first and foremost the doctrine of papal infallibility/supremacy.

There can be no reunion unless this 18th century doctrine is eliminated. Frankly, I do not see the West ever doing such a thing…and I am certain that the East cannot consider reunion unless the doctrine gone.

That is why IgnatianPhilo is so skeptical regarding reunion…and I must say that I agree with him. But again…with God…all things are possible.

 

[CopticChristian]

Actually, I think it is quite simple. East and West were in communion for the first 1000 years. Both Churches would need to see what that communion looked like 1000 years ago.

The difficulty that the East faces…is that the West added some doctrines after the Churches split…first and foremost the doctrine of papal infallibility/supremacy.

There can be no reunion unless this 18th century doctrine is eliminated. Frankly, I do not see the West ever doing such a thing…and I am certain that the East cannot consider reunion unless the doctrine gone.

That is why IgnatianPhilo is so skeptical regarding reunion…and I must say that I agree with him. But again…with God…all things are possible.

Mickey,

The Trinity was not doctrine until the 3rd Century I believe.

Was this added or defined?

 

[Mickey]

The Trinity was not doctrine until the 3rd Century I believe.

The Trinity was defined and refined by a Great Council (East and West). I am not going to begin a debate with you regarding Pope Pius IX’s 18th century doctrine of infallibility/supremacy…been there…done that.

I am merely agreeing with IgnatianPhilo that it is highly unlikely that there will be a union any time soon…and the reason can be attiributed mainly to that doctrine (with a special mention of purgatory, IC, and Flioque).

 

[CopticChristian]

The Trinity was defined and refined by a Great Council (East and West). I am not going to begin a debate with you regarding Pope Pius IX’s 18th century doctrine of infallibility/supremacy…been there…done that.

I am merely agreeing with IgnatianPhilo that it is highly unlikely that there will be a union any time soon…and the reason can be attiributed mainly to that doctrine (with a special mention of purgatory, IC, and Flioque).

Mickey,

I don’t debate. I just define. Added vs Declared, defined, refined…we are now Ok…

Purgatory I believe can exist as defined or refined by either Patriarchy Rome or Eastern whatever.

Filioque I believe can exist as defined or refined by either Patriarchy Rome or Eastern whatever.

Respect of the views of either Patriarchy is all that is needed…We can agree that we see the same doctrines through different lenses in time and look back at what united the OHCAC for progress to take place…

I believe that if Rome and The East can agree that we can share in the Eucharist in whichever Patriarchy that would be all the progress we need…

 

[Mickey]

I don’t debate.

Sure you do. That’s why you are here.

Purgatory I believe can exist as defined or refined by either Patriarchy Rome or Eastern whatever.

Purgatory is a Western doctrine…it was not defined by the East…nor will it ever be because of some of the language problems over the centuries…you know…that punishment and fire stuff.

Filioque I believe can exist as defined or refined by either Patriarchy Rome or Eastern whatever.

Disagree. If you mean “through the Son”…then say “through the Son.”

Respect of the views of either Patriarchy is all that is needed…

No. The elimination of the Latin innovations is all that is needed. Let us go back about 1000 years.

We can agree that we see the same doctrines through different lenses in time

No. If it is only barriers of perspective… it would have been solved long ago. There are concrete issues that will be very difficult to resolve.

I believe that if Rome and The East can agree that we can share in the Eucharist in whichever Patriarchy that would be all the progress we need…

To be in Communion takes much more than ecumenism and compromise…in my opinion.

 

[CopticChristian]

Sure you do. That’s why you are here.
Purgatory is a Western doctrine…it was not defined by the East…nor will it ever be because of some of the language problems over the centuries…you know…that punishment and fire stuff.
Disagree. If you mean “through the Son”…then say “through the Son.”
No. The elimination of the Latin innovations is all that is needed. Let us go back about 1000 years.
No. If it is only barriers of perspective… it would have been solved long ago. There are concrete issues that will be very difficult to resolve.
To be in Communion takes much more than ecumenism and compromise…in my opinion.

Mickey,

You are making it difficult when it does not have to be difficult.

What happens after death only one person that left earth knows for sure.

While you say let us go back 1000 years, how does it ring in your ears for me to ask you to come forward 1000 years? Neither view is respectful. Where the Orthodox are and Rome is has relevance today and there is nothing that can be done about the past except learn from it.

What we believe is a matter of Faith as defined and believed and neither views in my opinion prevent me from saying “Oh I see the Orthodox point of view” and I don’t understand your insistence that things go away.

Concerning how you choose to speak of the Trinity there is nothing that the Son has that the Father does not have and the same is true for the Trinity in general…how you choose to speak of it and believe it should not detract from the Trinity…I don’t see either view as a contradiction…I believe that if allowed to be in an Orthodox setting and celebrate the Eucharist that I would have no problem saying the Orthodox view as I don’t see it as contradictory to my view…

People are people. They do the same things in different ways all over the world. They speak different languages, have different customs and if there can be mutual respect and understanding and then it is possible to visit and enjoy the time spent together…whether here or there…without demanding that when there they do what is done here…

We see things differently however we agree that Marijuana is a drug…

 

[Mickey]

You are making it difficult when it does not have to be difficult.

LOL. It is not me making it difficult. The situation involves many difficult issues. The schism has been going on now for over 1000 years.

What happens after death only one person that left earth knows for sure.

Ah…we agree here.

What we believe is a matter of Faith as defined and believed and neither views in my opinion prevent me from saying “Oh I see the Orthodox point of view” and I don’t understand your insistence that things go away.

Purgatory does not cause me to lose sleep. As I said, it is the infallibility/supremacy issue that is the main issue from preventing union.

I believe that if allowed to be in an Orthodox setting and celebrate the Eucharist that I would have no problem saying the Orthodox view as I don’t see it as contradictory to my view…

I have heard many times that the Latins really mean “From the Father through the Son” when they say “From the Father and Son”. Let’s see the good faith effort and change it in the Mass.

People are people. They do the same things in different ways all over the world. They speak different languages, have different customs and if there can be mutual respect and understanding and then it is possible to visit and enjoy the time spent together…whether here or there…without demanding that when there they do what is done here…

Agreed. But doctrine is not the same as local customs or language differences. It is sad to me that Rome felt it necessary to proclaim a few things as doctrine after the schism…thereby locking themselves into a corner. This will make union very difficult.

We see things differently however we agree that Marijuana is a drug…

 

[CopticChristian]

LOL. It is not me making it difficult. The situation involves many difficult issues. The schism has been going on now for over 1000 years.
Ah…we agree here.
Purgatory does not cause me to lose sleep. As I said, it is the infallibility/supremacy issue that is the main issue from preventing union.
I have heard many times that the Latins really mean “From the Father through the Son” when they say “From the Father and Son”. Let’s see the good faith effort and change it in the Mass.
Agreed. But doctrine is not the same as local customs or language differences. It is sad to me that Rome felt it necessary to proclaim a few things as doctrine after the schism…thereby locking themselves into a corner. This will make union very difficult.

Mickey,

The infallibility is only an issue if you believe that it must be accepted by all Bishops. It, like Purgatory is Doctrine only for the Roman Patriarchy and you are correct it cements the Roman Patriarchy for what it is. This I believe will be the unity, in accepting each Patriarchy for what it is and coming to some agreement on something that all Patriarchies can agree on…what that will be remains to be seen…

I believe that if there is to be unity then it must begin by uniting and declaring something not old but new in unity…and that would be the beginning…

 

[Mickey]

The infallibility is only an issue if you believe that it must be accepted by all Bishops.

Are there Latin bishops who can deny the doctrine of infallibility/supremacy?

It, like Purgatory is Doctrine only for the Roman Patriarchy and you are correct it cements the Roman Patriarchy for what it is.

All the Eastern Catholic Churches must also adhere to these doctrines.

I believe that if there is to be unity then it must begin by uniting and declaring something not old but new in unity…and that would be the beginning…

The new would be a return to the old…for example…about 1000 years ago?

However, I am not here to argue with you on this glorious Feast of the Nativity of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. I leave you with these words:

Behold, the Child Who is coming to us in the cave to die for us; is reminding us that He is with us, talking to us, and entrusting us with conveying the message of peace and love, which He addressed to each and every one of us and to the whole world. He is coming to us as a humble one, knocking at the door of our heart with gentility as if He wanted to be born in it. The feast of Nativity is not a mere remembrance of Jesus’ birth in a cradle from the Virgin Mother of God; it was meant to be the feast of His birth in us, a birth that can only occur if we seek the purity that distinguished the Virgin Mary. The Birth of Jesus in us will invite us to renew our commitment to His teachings, and our struggle to become His unblemished Church, a Church that is free of weaknesses, pure in everything, and shining with the Holy Spirit.

Newly elected Patriarch of Antioch Johanna X

 

[Paul_theApostle]

Patriarch Barth…

"That is to say,** we must expend our spiritual energy NOT in the effort of finding justifications for the strengthening of positions, which we overly defended in the past towards the justification of the schism, **but in sincerely endeavoring to find arguments that verify the error of divisive inclinations and that, even more, seek out ways of approaching full restoration of the unity of the Churches.”