bartholomew-to-reinvigorate-dialogue-with-catholics

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RKO said:
As a person stuck in the middle between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, I may have a unique perspective. In my opinion what separates both is their individual arrogances.
Universal Papal Supremacy is the catholic arrogance, and the easiest to see.
The orthodox have a more subtle arrogance. That of the feeling that theey have been completely true to the faith created by Jesus and the Apostles while the RC has fallen into error.

In order for the sides to meet, the catholic Church needs to give a little on this idea of absolute supremacy, and the Orthodox need to chill out abou the “we are the faith of the Apostles and you catholics are in serious error, if not outright heresy.”

The political pressure on the heirarchy of both sides NOT to give in may be too great for this to happen anytime soon.

EDIT- Now that I re-read my post, it’s clear to me that my position is not so unique. It’s been said thousands of times before.
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Universal papal supremacy is not arrogance. It is doctrine and it is a true doctrine. Whether or not the Orthodox can accept that I have no idea. I doubt they ever will accept it and I am quite pessimistic about reunion myself.
 
The good thing is Part. Bart wants to talk, to "… seek out ways of approaching full restoration of the unity of the Churches.” The Holy Spirit will guide their hearts and anything can happen. As long as the dialogue continues, hope is always there. Both sides understand the importance of the need to be one as that is the most sensible thing to do. We laymen can talk and argue until we are blue in the face but that amount for nothing. It is still the hierarchies that makes the decision. We all agree that nothing is impossible with God and therefore let’s God be God.

The seemingly differences may not be insurmountable; it only needs better understanding. The biggest barrier to the East West reconciliation is more politic and history rather than theology.
 
Reuben_J said:
The biggest barrier to the East West reconciliation is more politic and history rather than theology.
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I disagree. I think there are some major theological differences… with infallibility/supremacy as the key barrier. There is flowery ecumenical language from the hierarchs on both sides…but the reality is much more complicated.
 
adf417 said:
Micky does this mean you also think the Patriarch is wasting his, yours and my time by entering into dialogue? I don’t understand the pessimism.
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It is not pessimism…it is being a realist. Dialogue has been ongoing for many years. But no movement will happen until the major theological differences are resolved. Also, the Orthodox are a bit weary in trusting Rome.

When the Eastern Catholics were formed…they were promised that they could keep the Orthodox Tradition in its entirety. And yet a slow process of Latinization ocurred. Rome even told them that their priests could be married…and yet that has still not become a complete reality in America (see St Alexis Toth). There are many issues to be resolved.

We can pray for union…but we should not hold our breath.😃
 
I think most pf the pessimism on both sides of this comes from people in the laity who pray and hope for re-unification, but they “hope the other side comes around.”

Hopefully those in charge have a larger, more fraternal perspective.
 
Mickey said:
The Trinity was defined and refined by a Great Council (East and West). I am not going to begin a debate with you regarding Pope Pius IX’s 18th century doctrine of infallibility/supremacy…been there…done that. 😉

I am merely agreeing with IgnatianPhilo that it is highly unlikely that there will be a union any time soon…and the reason can be attiributed mainly to that doctrine (with a special mention of purgatory, IC, and Flioque). 😃
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Hi Mickey - I am not looking to start a debate here but have a question (that you have probably been asked a thousand times before :D)

Don’t the E. Orthodox leaders (patriarchs?) have a similar status to the pope?
 
Eastern Orthodox patriarchs are similar to the Pope of Rome in that they are bishops of patriarchal sees. However, they are different in that there is no Orthodox teaching that a patriarch is infallible. Also, there is no bishop within the Orthodox Churches who has universal jurisdiction. The Ecumenical Patriarch has no more authority over a bishop of the Russian Orthodox Church than the Archbishop of Los Angeles has over the Archbishop of Galveston-Houston.
 
lax16 said:
Hi Mickey - I am not looking to start a debate here but have a question (that you have probably been asked a thousand times before :D)

Don’t the E. Orthodox leaders (patriarchs?) have a similar status to the pope?
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Hello Lax,

The Patriarchs don’t have authority over other Bishops. It is not a chain of hierarchy, the way it is understood in the West – for all of the Bishops are equal. A Patriarch is the “primate” of his entire Church, while the Metropolitan or Bishop is still equal to him but has jurisdiction over his particular Diocese. A Patriarch cannot interfere in the jurisdiction of a Metropolitan or Bishop…
 
RKO said:
I think most pf the pessimism on both sides of this comes from people in the laity who pray and hope for re-unification, but they “hope the other side comes around.”

Hopefully those in charge have a larger, more fraternal perspective.
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Again…it is not about pessimism…it is about theology and reality.
 
lax16 said:
Hi Mickey - I am not looking to start a debate here but have a question (that you have probably been asked a thousand times before :D)

Don’t the E. Orthodox leaders (patriarchs?) have a similar status to the pope?
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No.
 
Mickey said:
Again…it is not about pessimism…it is about theology and reality.
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Mickey, I wasn’t talking about you personally. But there IS pessimism, and with reason…1000 years is a long time for the Church to be fractured. It’s a shame. Or maybe I’m the only person in history who has been pessimistic, but I admit it. 😦
 
RyanBlack said:
…The Ecumenical Patriarch has no more authority over a bishop of the Russian Orthodox Church than the Archbishop of Los Angeles has over the Archbishop of Galveston-Houston.
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Ave Christe 11 posted:
The Patriarchs don’t have authority over other Bishops. It is not a chain of hierarchy, the way it is understood in the West …
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While arguably reflective of the current state of EO ecclesiology as it developed over centuries, these answers do not provide an accurate reflection of the actual historical reality of OC ecclesiology. THE EP has been far, far more intrusive than Rome.
 
RKO said:
1000 years is a long time for the Church to be fractured.
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The Church is not fractured. A Catholic could not accept such an assertion and nor would I expect an Eastern Orthodox to accept it either. The Church is one and indivisible. There can only be those who break away from her, there cannot be a broken Church.

Regarding reunification… it’s very simple. They must accept the primacy of the Roman Pontiff with all the powers and privileges attached to his office as defined by Vatican I and everything that follows from that (the Immaculate Conception for example). We can’t concede on this matter. We have no authority to concede on the Pope’s authority.

I agree and disagree with earlier sentiments expressed in this thread. The Orthodox will not enter into communion with the Church any time soon. But they will in time. They will renounce their schism and accept Papal primacy.

I believe the current method of dialogue that the Holy Father and the Church Fathers have chosen to take isn’t the best. By all means it’s within their authority and I pray for success but I simply don’t believe anything will come of it. For all that the Eastern Orthodox are true particular Churches, with valid sacraments and bishops, priests, etc. they are still in schism. They are not equals to the Holy Roman Church.
 
pablope said:
calledtocommunion.com/2012/12/bartholomew-is-seeking-to-reinvigorate-dialogue-with-roman-catholics/

Bartholomew desires to make a new beginning that it why he proposed that “it is already empirically evident that the conviction has matured in the hearts of both sides, namely that, from this point on the course of our efforts must be reversed. That is to say, we must expend our spiritual energy not in the effort of finding justifications for the strengthening of positions, which we overly defended in the past towards the justification of the schism, but in sincerely endeavoring to find arguments that verify the error of divisive inclinations and that, even more, seek out ways of approaching full restoration of the unity of the Churches.”

The patriarch believes that “the best method for investigating this matter is the continuation and cultivation of inter-ecclesiastical dialogues and relations, as well as especial cultivation of the outcome of the dialogue of love into a substantial and theological dialogue between both of our Churches, Orthodox and Roman Catholic. The personal acquaintance of the members and especially of the representatives of the Churches often leads to the discovery that the people involved are of good will, and that a deeper understanding of the events that provoked the schism based upon objectivity will suffice to dissipate fears, suspicions, distrust, and conflicts of the past.”
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Unity will come for it is contained in our Lord’s prayer in John’s Gospel however it will not come from on high that is Pope and Patriarch but it will come from us the laity. It will be the layperson who in time will bring forth the unity of the Church and the Pope and the Patriarchs will finalize it. The question is then how can the laity bring forth this unity? The Patriarch is correct is stating we need to find “arguements” which will support this unity. It will come in time because it will be the Laity who will find the right words and the right arguements to sustain this unity. As for now the Bishops from both sides cannot do this. Their inability to bring this about comes from the fact they are trying to solve this without us! They need our help and God will soon show the Church the strength He has among His Laity to bring this about. The Laity are part of this Church and their contribution is vitally important and God wishes that they alongside His Bishops will bring this about. If we are struggling these days to bring it about it is because the Laity are just coming into their own. In time you will witness great people who will address this issue with words and theories that will make more sense than what Bishops are proposing and with these same people the Bishops will see more light and clarification and then unity will be just around the corner.
 
dvdjs said:
Ave Christe 11 posted: While arguably reflective of the current state of EO ecclesiology as it developed over centuries, these answers do not provide an accurate reflection of the actual historical reality of OC ecclesiology. THE EP has been far, far more intrusive than Rome.
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I think you will probably agree that historically, that intrusiveness has gone hand-in-hand with civil power, which abets abuses of power. The difference is that canonically, the Ecumenical Patriarch’s mode of jurisdiction over the whole Orthodox Church (at least as far as I am aware) remains appellate, while the jurisdiction of the Roman Pope does not.
 
AveChriste11 said:
Hello Lax,

The Patriarchs don’t have authority over other Bishops. It is not a chain of hierarchy, the way it is understood in the West – for all of the Bishops are equal. A Patriarch is the “primate” of his entire Church, while the Metropolitan or Bishop is still equal to him but has jurisdiction over his particular Diocese. A Patriarch cannot interfere in the jurisdiction of a Metropolitan or Bishop…
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What happens if a particular Metropolitan or Bishop jurisdiction engages in practices that conflicts with Orthodox teachings/traditions?
 
Laudate_Dominum said:
We can’t concede on this matter.
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And neither can we. This why union is not likely.
Laudate_Dominum said:
The Orthodox will not enter into communion with the Church any time soon. But they will in time.
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Perhaps Christ will bring Rome back to Holy Orthodoxy at the end of time. 🙂
Laudate_Dominum said:
They will renounce their schism and accept Papal primacy.
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We believe Rome is in schism. And so we see how difficult the situation really is.
 
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