bartholomew-to-reinvigorate-dialogue-with-catholics

[GaryTaylor]

A nice article that looks at all the numbers (up to 80) and gives a reality check on thinking “that it is Russia who will convert the rest of the world”.

windowoneurasia2.blogspot.com/2012/12/window-on-eurasia-80-41-or-5-what.html

Ah Universal Orthodoxy in full effect. Who said like thinking doesn’t exist.

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

Hmm. After careful thought and re-reading my posts in this thread (as well as certain other materials) I must conclude that I have been uncharitable to posters in my attitude towards them and sometimes in my words. And for that I apologise wholeheartedly. I believe I was making valid points but my own emotional zeal made it so that I put it forth in an uncharitable manner.

With all of the above said I’ll try now to restate my opinion.

I personally feel that because of the lack of emphasis on proselytism in the Eastern-Western (and I am using the designation Western broadly in application to all those Churches in communion with Rome) current dialogue is doomed to failure because I do not see how re-union can be accomplished in any other way except for a conversion of one or another to the other Church’s teaching and the abandoning of one’s own current position.

For the Roman Catholic Church papal infallibility and universal authority must be accepted. And all that flows from the papal exercising of that infallibility and authority (for example the Marian dogmas) must be accepted likewise. There can be absolutely no concession on this from a Catholic perspective. In reply to an early comment which quoted the then-Cardinal Ratzinger… I am not proposing that the Eastern Orthodox accept any more than they would have known in the first millennium. Saint Peter’s Chair was just as infallible then as it is now. Simply because the Pope has exercised his office post-schism does not mean that everything that occurred post-schism should not be obligatory on the Eastern Orthodox because the principle that allowed the Pope to exercise his teaching and judicial authority was in existence then.

I view it very simply. For there to be full-communion then the Eastern Orthodox must believe exactly the same that a Spanish peasant, French lawyer or Roman nobleman—all professing the Catholic Faith as taught by the Magisterium of the Holy Roman Church—believes.

In other words… I am bound to believe that the Pope can exercise his teaching office infallibly. If I dissent from this then I would be a heretic. I believe this with every faculty in my possession. And Rome can never relax this stricture without turning back on everything that she is (and hence adopting the Orthodox position). Yet we’re to expect that the same rule will not apply to a Russian Orthodox?

 

[KathleenGee]

I heard about the terrible sufferings the Russian Orthodox went through during the reign of communism.

Then in this past decade I read about the sufferings of the Orthodox and the fall of Constantinople to Islam.

I have prayed for the conversion of Russia as a young person, and have always carried the burden of sufferings the Orthodox have gone through since childhood. I read over the years inspirations by Catholics that some day Russia of faith would help the West, the same future offering of help by Hebrew Catholics to the Gentile Church. I read a mystic’s writing that adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, in contemporary context, would begin in America. I also read later on that Russia would adore Christ like no other in future times.

I heard a Catholic say that Western Christianity has Christ without the cross, and communist countries the cross without Christ.

All of us need to spend much more time constantly praying and doing penance for Christianity in this world and for the reunification of the Latin and Orthodox Churches with faith, hope, and love.

 

[CopticChristian]

Hmm. After careful thought and re-reading my posts in this thread (as well as certain other materials) I must conclude that I have been uncharitable to posters in my attitude towards them and sometimes in my words. And for that I apologise wholeheartedly. I believe I was making valid points but my own emotional zeal made it so that I put it forth in an uncharitable manner.

With all of the above said I’ll try now to restate my opinion.

For the Roman Catholic Church papal infallibility and universal authority must be accepted. I view it very simply. For there to be full-communion then the Eastern Orthodox must believe exactly the same that a Spanish peasant, French lawyer or Roman nobleman—all professing the Catholic Faith as taught by the Magisterium of the Holy Roman Church—believes.

In other words… I am bound to believe that the Pope can exercise his teaching office infallibly. If I dissent from this then I would be a heretic. I believe this with every faculty in my possession. And Rome can never relax this stricture without turning back on everything that she is (and hence adopting the Orthodox position). Yet we’re to expect that the same rule will not apply to a Russian Orthodox?

LD,

Since we are Catholic, Christian and seeking unity, I suggest that we model the behavior of the Pope, you believe has authority you profess. If we model that then dialogue is fruitful. Expressing sorrow is an expression of thought and feeling while it is humbling to ask forgiveness and in asking recognizing that in that request it is an admonition to ask that there is acceptance of a change of heart of the one asking.

I suggest reading and referencing Ut UNUM SINT as well for the proper mode of dialogue so as to model the ecumenical thought process where I see no request, as you put forth, or demand of anything…we all as you know are called to repent and all are called to be transformed…it was known to Paul and John the Baptist…

Repent…Metanoia…change your mind…

Do not be conformed to the world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind…

We all need constant formation of conscience to be faithful, we all need recollection of what we thought we knew, what we thought we understood, and what our best intentions may have been and constantly

renew or mind so that we can be transformed and conform ourselves to the living Christ so that we may be made new in Him…and as you ponder your reflection and response…

What would Jesus Do…may serve you and to model our Pope in asking nothing but forgiveness would serve all…

Note that Our Pope says that the papacy should be studied…I see no reference to what anyone must accept.

IOANNES PAULUS PP. II
UT UNUM SINT
On commitment to Ecumenism

dogpile.com/info.dogpl.t6.2/search/web?fcoid=417&fcop=topnav&fpid=27&q=et+unum+sint&ql=

1. Among all the Churches and Ecclesial Communities, the Catholic Church is conscious that she has preserved the ministry of the Successor of the Apostle Peter, the Bishop of Rome, whom God established as her “perpetual and visible principle and foundation of unity” 146 and whom the Spirit sustains in order that he may enable all the others to share in this essential good. In the beautiful expression of Pope Saint Gregory the Great, my ministry is that of servus servorum Dei. This designation is the best possible safeguard against the risk of separating power (and in particular the primacy) from ministry. Such a separation would contradict the very meaning of power according to the Gospel: “I am among you as one who serves” (Lk 22:27), says our Lord Jesus Christ, the Head of the Church. On the other hand, as I acknowledged on the important occasion of a visit to the World Council of Churches in Geneva on 12 June 1984, the Catholic Church’s conviction that in the ministry of the Bishop of Rome she has preserved, in fidelity to the Apostolic Tradition and the faith of the Fathers, the visible sign and guarantor of unity, constitutes a difficulty for most other Christians, whose memory is marked by certain painful recollections. To the extent that we are responsible for these,** I join my Predecessor Paul VI in asking forgiveness.147**89.

**It is nonetheless significant and encouraging that the question of the primacy of the Bishop of Rome has now become a subject of study which is already under way or will be in the near future. It **is likewise significant and encouraging that this question appears as an essential theme not only in the theological dialogues in which the Catholic Church is engaging with other Churches and Ecclesial Communities, but also more generally in the ecumenical movement as a whole. Recently the delegates to the Fifth World Assembly of the Commission on Faith and Order of the World Council of Churches, held in Santiago de Compostela, recommended that the Commission “begin a new study of the question of a universal ministry of Christian unity”.148 After centuries of bitter controversies, the other Churches and Ecclesial Communities are more and more taking a fresh look at this ministry of unity.149

I would ask you to consider referencing modeling your thoughts as the Catechism outlines…

We Believe…
We Live our Sacaramental Life
We Model Christ and seek Morality looking towards Holiness as our God is Holy
and
We ask for Help, we pray…

Now I suggest you consider that when looking at Orthodox unity

They Believe…
They live the Sacramental life
They Model Christ and seek Morality looking towards Holiness as our God is Holy
and
They ask for Help and pray

What is believed can be something to squabble about does not change the other three and to focus on one beyond the others is to lose focus…

 

[RKO]

Hmm. After careful thought and re-reading my posts in this thread (as well as certain other materials) I must conclude that I have been uncharitable to posters in my attitude towards them and sometimes in my words. And for that I apologise wholeheartedly. I believe I was making valid points but my own emotional zeal made it so that I put it forth in an uncharitable manner.

With all of the above said I’ll try now to restate my opinion.

I personally feel that because of the lack of emphasis on proselytism in the Eastern-Western (and I am using the designation Western broadly in application to all those Churches in communion with Rome) current dialogue is doomed to failure because I do not see how re-union can be accomplished in any other way except for a conversion of one or another to the other Church’s teaching and the abandoning of one’s own current position.

For the Roman Catholic Church papal infallibility and universal authority must be accepted. And all that flows from the papal exercising of that infallibility and authority (for example the Marian dogmas) must be accepted likewise. There can be absolutely no concession on this from a Catholic perspective. In reply to an early comment which quoted the then-Cardinal Ratzinger… I am not proposing that the Eastern Orthodox accept any more than they would have known in the first millennium. Saint Peter’s Chair was just as infallible then as it is now. Simply because the Pope has exercised his office post-schism does not mean that everything that occurred post-schism should not be obligatory on the Eastern Orthodox because the principle that allowed the Pope to exercise his teaching and judicial authority was in existence then.

I view it very simply. For there to be full-communion then the Eastern Orthodox must believe exactly the same that a Spanish peasant, French lawyer or Roman nobleman—all professing the Catholic Faith as taught by the Magisterium of the Holy Roman Church—believes.

In other words… I am bound to believe that the Pope can exercise his teaching office infallibly. If I dissent from this then I would be a heretic. I believe this with every faculty in my possession. And Rome can never relax this stricture without turning back on everything that she is (and hence adopting the Orthodox position). Yet we’re to expect that the same rule will not apply to a Russian Orthodox?

I for one appreciate your apology and offer you mine for my own lack of charity.
However, in all honesty, you have demonstrated an absolute inability to have a rational discussion with anyone whose opnion may differ from yours in the slightest. I read your last post and while it’s more polite, it’s more of the same.

I think that you and I can just probably not have any sort of meaningful discussion.
Peace.

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

I for one appreciate your apology and offer you mine for my own lack of charity.
However, in all honesty, you have demonstrated an absolute inability to have a rational discussion with anyone whose opnion may differ from yours in the slightest. I read your last post and while it’s more polite, it’s more of the same.

I think that you and I can just probably not have any sort of meaningful discussion.
Peace.

May I humbly ask what you disagree with in my above post?

 

[CopticChristian]

May I humbly ask what you disagree with in my above post?

LD,

Post #55 in this thread reads…

The Church is not fractured. A Catholic could not accept such an assertion and nor would I expect an Eastern Orthodox to accept it either. The Church is one and indivisible. There can only be those who break away from her, there cannot be a broken Church.

Regarding reunification… it’s very simple. They must accept

the primacy of the Roman Pontiff with all the powers and privileges attached to his office as defined by Vatican I and everything that follows from that (the Immaculate Conception for example). **We can’t concede **on this matter. We have no authority to concede on the Pope’s authority.

I agree and disagree with earlier sentiments expressed in this thread. The Orthodox will not enter into communion with the Church any time soon. But they will in time. They will renounce their schism and accept Papal primacy.

I believe the current method of dialogue that the Holy Father and the Church Fathers have chosen to take isn’t the best. By all means it’s within their authority and I pray for success but I simply don’t believe anything will come of it. For all that the Eastern Orthodox are true particular Churches, with valid sacraments and bishops, priests, etc. they are still in schism. **They are not equals to the Holy Roman Church./**QUOTE]

As a layman, Scot, as someone that prays the Rosary, answers questions and posits opinion routinely in all your posting, never really asking any questions, you believe that your opinion supersedes the Magesterium and the Theologians of the Orthodox.

your next posting…

**I personally feel **

that because of the lack of emphasis on proselytism in the Eastern-Western (and I am using the designation Western broadly in application to all those Churches in communion with Rome) **current dialogue is doomed to failure **because I do not see how re-union can be accomplished in any other way except for a conversion of one or another to the other Church’s teaching and the abandoning of one’s own current position.

For the Roman Catholic Church papal infallibility and universal authority must be accepted. And all that flows from the papal exercising of that infallibility and authority (for example the Marian dogmas) must be accepted likewise. There can be absolutely no concession on this from a Catholic perspective. In reply to an early comment which quoted the then-Cardinal Ratzinger… I am not proposing that the Eastern Orthodox accept any more than they would have known in the first millennium. Saint Peter’s Chair was just as infallible then as it is now. Simply because the Pope has exercised his office post-schism does not mean that everything that occurred post-schism should not be **obligatory **on the Eastern Orthodox because the principle that allowed the Pope to exercise his teaching and judicial authority was in existence then.

**I view it very simply. For there to be full-communion then the Eastern Orthodox must believe exactly the same that a Spanish peasant, French lawyer or Roman nobleman—all professing the Catholic Faith as taught by the Magisterium of the Holy Roman Church—believes./**QUOTE]
Your personal feelings and beliefs rerpresent a recalcitrant view of what it is you think and believe to the detriment of unity. I suggest that as you say you routinely partake of the Sacrament of Reconcilliation every Saturday, you visit and ask your confessor about your feelings, beliefs and your notion of apology, forgiveness and charity.

After that get back to me…

 

[jrtrent]

current dialogue is doomed to failure because I do not see how re-union can be accomplished in any other way except for a conversion of one or another to the other Church’s teaching and the abandoning of one’s own current position.

I would have to agree, and the differences are many. Maybe I shouldn’t join the conversation, not being either Orthodox or Catholic, but when I was investigating the Orthodox faith, I was introduced to the work of Andrew Stephen Damick, pastor of an Orthodox church in Pennsylvania. He offered a list of changes needed by the Roman Catholic Church that he saw as essential for union with Orthodoxy. I don’t fully understand all the terms, but below is the list from his book Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy: Exploring Belief Systems through the Lens of the Ancient Christian Faith.

items that Roman Catholics must repudiate and reject (not merely brush aside or theologize around):

papal universal jurisdiction
papal infallibility
papal Petrine exclusivism (i.e., that only the pope is Peter’s successor)
development of doctrine
the Filioque
original sin understood as guilt transmitted via “propagation”
the immaculate conception of Mary
absolute divine simplicity
merit and satisfaction soteriology
purgatory and indulgences
created grace

items that Roman Catholics would have to accept and fully confess:

the authority of the Ecumenical Councils over the pope
the essence/energies distinction

practices Roman Catholics would need to restore:

reconnect confirmation/chrismation to baptism rather than delaying it
give Holy Communion to all church members, including infants

 

[CopticChristian]

I would have to agree, and the differences are many. Maybe I shouldn’t join the conversation, not being either Orthodox or Catholic, but when I was investigating the Orthodox faith, I was introduced to the work of Andrew Stephen Damick, pastor of an Orthodox church in Pennsylvania. He offered a list of changes needed by the Roman Catholic Church that he saw as essential for union with Orthodoxy. I don’t fully understand all the terms, but below is the list from his book Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy: Exploring Belief Systems through the Lens of the Ancient Christian Faith.

items that Roman Catholics must repudiate and reject (not merely brush aside or theologize around):

papal universal jurisdiction
papal infallibility
papal Petrine exclusivism (i.e., that only the pope is Peter’s successor)
development of doctrine
the Filioque
original sin understood as guilt transmitted via “propagation”
the immaculate conception of Mary
absolute divine simplicity
merit and satisfaction soteriology
purgatory and indulgences
created grace

items that Roman Catholics would have to accept and fully confess:

the authority of the Ecumenical Councils over the pope
the essence/energies distinction

practices Roman Catholics would need to restore:

reconnect confirmation/chrismation to baptism rather than delaying it
give Holy Communion to all church members, including infants

Jr,

This is just what I would expect from any Mormon/Lutheran/Anglican.

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

LD,

Post #55 in this thread reads…

As a layman, Scot, as someone that prays the Rosary, answers questions and posits opinion routinely in all your posting, never really asking any questions, you believe that your opinion supersedes the Magesterium and the Theologians of the Orthodox.

your next posting…

Your personal feelings and beliefs rerpresent a recalcitrant view of what it is you think and believe to the detriment of unity. I suggest that as you say you routinely partake of the Sacrament of Reconcilliation every Saturday, you visit and ask your confessor about your feelings, beliefs and your notion of apology, forgiveness and charity.

After that get back to me…

If I may ask in which part of my statements have I contradicted the teachings of the Church? If you would kindly condescend to answer me I have some questions…

• Is it an article of the Catholic faith that the Bishop of Rome, the Pope, under determined conditions, exercises an infallible teaching authority?
• Is it required for Catholics to believe and assent to that article of the Catholic faith?
• Is it an article of the Catholic faith that the Church of Rome has a primacy over all other Churches?
• Is it required for Catholics to believe and assent also to this article of the Catholic faith?

Thank you.

And may I further ask please that you also highlight my following statement in regards to my personal feelings on the matter of current dialogue? That is to say… “By all means it’s within their [Rome’s] authority and I pray for success.”

 

[CopticChristian]

If I may ask in which part of my statements have I contradicted the teachings of the Church? If you would kindly condescend to answer me I have some questions…

• Is it an article of the Catholic faith that the Bishop of Rome, the Pope, under determined conditions, exercises an infallible teaching authority?
• Is it required for Catholics to believe and assent to that article of the Catholic faith?
• Is it an article of the Catholic faith that the Church of Rome has a primacy over all other Churches?
• Is it required for Catholics to believe and assent also to this article of the Catholic faith?

Thank you.

And may I further ask please that you also highlight my following statement in regards to my personal feelings on the matter of current dialogue? That is to say… “By all means it’s within their [Rome’s] authority and I pray for success.”

LD,

First, I ask you to read the entirety of what John Paul II says here…compare and contrast your thoughts and feelings, should, shouldn’t, must, have to, concede…and show me where the Pope outlines these obligatories that you have put forth…

Then we can dialogue…Ok…

Concerning what we believe, the deposit of Faith in the Catechism, first part, We Believe is accepted by all Catholics…you are not in teaching session with me…save your pointed questions for later…

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25051995_ut-unum-sint_en.html

IOANNES PAULUS PP. II
UT UNUM SINT
On commitment to Ecumenism

INTRODUCTION

1. Ut unum sint! The call for Christian unity made by the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council with such impassioned commitment is finding an ever greater echo in the hearts of believers, especially as the Year 2000 approaches, a year which Christians will celebrate as a sacred Jubilee, the commemoration of the Incarnation of the Son of God, who became man in order to save humanity.

The courageous witness of so many martyrs of our century, including members of Churches and Ecclesial Communities not in full communion with the Catholic Church, gives new vigour to the Council’s call and reminds us of our duty to listen to and put into practice its exhortation. These brothers and sisters of ours, united in the selfless offering of their lives for the Kingdom of God, are the most powerful proof that every factor of division can be transcended and overcome in the total gift of self for the sake of the Gospel.

Christ calls all his disciples to unity. My earnest desire is to renew this call today, to propose it once more with determination, repeating what I said at the Roman Colosseum on Good Friday 1994, at the end of the meditation on the Via Crucis prepared by my Venerable Brother Bartholomew, the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople. There I stated that believers in Christ, united in following in the footsteps of the martyrs, cannot remain divided. If they wish truly and effectively to oppose the world’s tendency to reduce to powerlessness the Mystery of Redemption,** they must profess together the same truth about the Cross.1 The Cross!** An anti-Christian outlook seeks to minimize the Cross, to empty it of its meaning, and to deny that in it man has the source of his new life. It claims that the Cross is unable to provide either vision or hope. Man, it says, is nothing but an earthly being, who must live as if God did not exist.

1. No one is unaware of the challenge which all this poses to believers. They cannot fail to meet this challenge. Indeed, how could they refuse to do everything possible, with God’s help, to break down the walls of division and distrust, to overcome obstacles and prejudices which thwart the proclamation of the Gospel of salvation in the Cross of Jesus, the one Redeemer of man, of every individual?

I thank the Lord that he has led us to make progress along the path of unity and communion between Christians, a path difficult but so full of joy. Interconfessional dialogues at the theological level have produced positive and tangible results: this encourages us to move forward.

**Nevertheless, besides the doctrinal differences needing to be resolved, Christians cannot underestimate the burden of long-standing misgivings inherited from the past, and of mutual misunderstandings and prejudices. **Complacency, indifference and insufficient knowledge of one another often make this situation worse. Consequently, the commitment to ecumenism must be based upon the conversion of hearts and upon prayer, which will also lead to the necessary purification of past memories. With the grace of the Holy Spirit, the Lord’s disciples, inspired by love, by the power of the truth and by a sincere desire for mutual forgiveness and reconciliation, are called to re-examine together their painful past and the hurt which that past regrettably continues to provoke even today. All together, they are invited by the ever fresh power of the Gospel to acknowledge with sincere and total objectivity the mistakes made and the contingent factors at work at the origins of their deplorable divisions. What is needed is a calm, clear-sighted and truthful vision of things, a vision enlivened by divine mercy and capable of freeing people’s minds and of inspiring in everyone a renewed willingness, precisely with a view to proclaiming the Gospel to the men and women of every people and nation.

Tomorrow is Saturday and I pray you have a good visit…

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

First, I ask you to read the entirety of what John Paul II says here…compare and contrast your thoughts and feelings, should, shouldn’t, must, have to, concede…and show me where the Pope outlines these obligatories that you have put forth…

Then we can dialogue…Ok…

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25051995_ut-unum-sint_en.html

Tomorrow is Saturday and I pray you have a good visit…

The late Holy Father in the above quoted passage referred to doctrinal differences that must be resolved. Those doctrinal differences and how to resolve them concern the nature of my posts and others’ posts.

Would you kindly answer my above questions?

 

[CopticChristian]

The late Holy Father in the above quoted passage referred to doctrinal differences that must be resolved. Those doctrinal differences and how to resolve them concern the nature of my posts and others’ posts.

Would you kindly answer my above questions?

LD,

This is the first of any postings, and I have read them all, that you have made where you actually asked a question. This is progress.

Next, I shall go through UT UNUM SINT, over the next few days and point out where the Holy Father uses absolutes like Should, Should not, Must, etc and then you can compare and contrast your thinking with the Holy Father. Modeling excellence is the path to improvement.

This may take a few days, I will get back to you so we can both repent, metnoia, change our minds. It will be a good exercise for both of us…

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

LD,

This is the first of any postings, and I have read them all, that you have made where you actually asked a question. This is progress.

Next, I shall go through UT UNUM SINT, over the next few days and point out where the Holy Father uses absolutes like Should, Should not, Must, etc and then you can compare and contrast your thinking with the Holy Father. Modeling excellence is the path to improvement.

This may take a few days, I will get back to you so we can both repent, metnoia, change our minds. It will be a good exercise for both of us…

I shall save you the time.

1. Taking up an idea expressed by Pope John XXIII at the opening of the Council,31 the Decree on Ecumenism mentions the way of formulating doctrine as one of the elements of a continuing reform.32 Here it is not a question of altering the deposit of faith, changing the meaning of dogmas, eliminating essential words from them, accommodating truth to the preferences of a particular age, or suppressing certain articles of the Creed under the false pretext that they are no longer understood today. The unity willed by God can be attained only by the adherence of all to the content of revealed faith in its entirety. In matters of faith, compromise is in contradiction with God who is Truth. In the Body of Christ, “the way, and the truth, and the life” (Jn 14:6), who could consider legitimate a reconciliation brought about at the expense of the truth? The Council’s Declaration on Religious Freedom Dignitatis Humanae attributes to human dignity the quest for truth, “especially in what concerns God and his Church”,33 and adherence to truth’s demands. A “being together” which betrayed the truth would thus be opposed both to the nature of God who offers his communion and to the need for truth found in the depths of every human heart.

In light of the above from the late Holy Father Bl. John Paul II in his Encylical Ut Unum Sint… and that the Catholic Church teaches that Petrine primary and teaching authority, etc. as is understood and formulated by the Magisterium of the Catholic Church… is held to be revealed truth… please, kindly point out where I have been wrong in my above statements regarding the necessity for the adoption of Roman doctrine and dogma by the Orthodox as a necessity for unity…

Seeing as the late Holy Father himself has said there there can be no compromise in this regard…

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

How’s that workin for ya?

Quite well.

 

[CopticChristian]

I shall save you the time.

Seeing as the late Holy Father himself has said there there can be no compromise in this regard…

LD,

This is very Protestant of you cherry picking…

What follows is this…

1. Even so, doctrine needs to be presented in a way that makes it understandable to those for whom God himself intends it.

and was preceeded by this…

1. In the teaching of the Second Vatican Council there is a clear connection between renewal, conversion and reform. The Council states that “Christ summons the Church, as she goes her pilgrim way, to that continual reformation of which she always has need, insofar as she is an institution of human beings here on earth. Therefore, if the influence of events or of the times has led to deficiencies … these should be appropriately rectified at the proper moment”.23 No Christian Community can exempt itself from this call.

By engaging in frank dialogue, Communities help one another to look at themselves together in the light of the Apostolic Tradition.

and the must and shoulds up to section 23 are here…

There I stated that believers in Christ, united in following in the footsteps of the martyrs, **cannot **remain divided.

they **must **profess together the same truth about the Cross.1

Christians cannot underestimate the burden of long-standing misgivings inherited from the past, and of mutual misunderstandings and prejudices.

Consequently, the commitment to ecumenism** must** be based upon the conversion of hearts and upon prayer, which will also lead to the necessary purification of past memories.

This is the basis not only of the duty, but also of the responsibility before God and his plan, which falls to those who through Baptism become members of the Body of Christ, a Body in which the fullness of reconciliation and communion** must **be made present.

“This sacred Synod exhorts all the Catholic faithful to recognize the signs of the times and to participate actively in the work of ecumenism”.7

1. Jesus himself, at the hour of his Passion, prayed “that they may all be one” (Jn 17:21). This unity, which the Lord has bestowed on his Church and in which he wishes to embrace all people, is not something added on, but stands at the very heart of Christ’s mission. Nor is it some secondary attribute of the community of his disciples. Rather, it belongs to the very essence of this community. God wills the Church, because he wills unity, and unity is an expression of the whole depth of his agape.

The Council’s Decree on Ecumenism, referring to the Orthodox Churches, went so far as to declare that “through the celebration of the Eucharist of the Lord in each of these Churches, the Church of God is built up and grows in stature”.16 Truth **demands that **all this be recognized.

The Council calls for personal conversion as well as for communal conversion. The desire of every Christian Community for unity goes hand in hand with its fidelity to the Gospel. In the case of individuals who live their Christian vocation, the Council speaks of interior conversion, of a **renewal of mind.**22

In a corresponding way, there is an increased sense of the need for repentance: an awareness of certain exclusions which seriously harm fraternal charity, of certain refusals to forgive, of a certain pride, of an unevangelical insistence on condemning the “other side”, of a disdain born of an unhealthy presumption.

Thus, the entire life of Christians is marked by a concern for ecumenism; and they are called to let themselves be shaped, as it were, by that concern.

1. With regard to other Christians, the principal documents of the Commission on Faith and Order 28 and the statements of numerous bilateral dialogues have already provided Christian Communities with useful tools for discerning what is necessary to the ecumenical movement and to the conversion which it **must **inspire. These studies are important from two points of view: they demonstrate the remarkable progress already made, and they are a source of hope inasmuch as they represent a sure foundation for further study.

1. All this is extremely important and of fundamental significance for ecumenical activity. Thus it is absolutely clear that ecumenism, the movement promoting Christian unity, is not just some sort of “appendix” which is added to the Church’s traditional activity. Rather, ecumenism is an organic part of her life and work, and consequently **must **pervade all that she is and does; it must be like the fruit borne by a healthy and flourishing tree which grows to its full stature.

1. Finally, fellowship in prayer leads people to look at the Church and Christianity in a new way. It must not be forgotten in fact that the Lord prayed to the Father that his disciples might be one, so that their unity might bear witness to his mission and the world would believe that the Father had sent him (cf. Jn 17:21).

“Ecumenical” prayer is at the service of the Christian mission and its credibility. It** must **thus be especially present in the life of the Church and in every activity aimed at fostering Christian unity.

 

[Mickey]

I am glad and happy for you.

Thank you. I am happy for you also. Slava Isusu Christu!

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

This is very Protestant of you cherry picking…

Compared to what you have repeatedly attempted to do. You have completely removed all of the below from the context given in UUS 18. By the way I strongly suggest you look into a little something called the hermeneutic of continuity.

What follows is this…

I fail to see where this is in contradiction with what I have asserted. In fact I find no contradiction with anything I’ve said in this thread with Ut Unum Sint.

Let me ask you a very clear question with which you only need to answer yes or no.

Is it your contention that the Roman Catholic Church can, for example, drop Her teaching of Papal infallibility and remove it from the deposit of the faith so as it is not longer binding on the faithful to believe?

 

[Mickey]

These countries are a far better example to the world.

You are entitled to your opinion (you have made it no secret that you are not fond of Russia…so your continued attacks do not surprise me).

Russia is a wonderful example for me. They were brutalized for many decades. Their Churches and monasteries were destroyed and the godless communists tried to erase their faith…and yet they pevailed and are making a great come back. More Churches and monasteries are being built…and the people are rediscovering their holy faith.

Holy New Martyrs of Russia pray for us.

 

[ConstantineTG]

But one thing is for certain. Russia certainly does not need to be converted to anything…except maybe a return to a stronger practice of Holy Orthodoxy.

Of course the message of Fatima has always been interpreted to mean the conversion of Russia to Roman Catholicism. Why do you think Traditionalists to this day keep calling for the “Consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary”? Russia, I believe from what I observe, is more Christian than the entire North America. In Canada you can abort a baby at 40 weeks prior to being born. In fact you can abort the baby even when the mom is in labor. In Russia, they have scaled down on abortion that only specific cases are allowed after 12 weeks.

The problem with democracy is that we haven’t realized that our government is atheistic. As much as the communists in Russia.