Basic Problems with the Standard Christian Doctrine of God

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The doctrine of the Incarnation is a straightforward contradiction because God is made subject to limitations and finitude. The idea that God is even capable of being a human person violates everything one means when they say God is the One, or Absolute, etc.
Just one clarification. Christianity does not teach that God became a human person, but that he took on a human nature. Jesus is only one Person, and that Person is the divine Word, who possesses the divine nature. He is a divine person, not a human person. But he does fully possess a human nature. To put it succinctly, Jesus is a human being (i.e. fully man) but not a human person.

Analogically, it would be as if I as a human person decided to assume a dog nature in order to save dogs.
I would still be a human person with a human nature, but also have a canine nature assumed by me. (I cannot do that because my personhood is embodied, and this would require me to have two bodies. But God is pure spirit, and can assume a human nature without contradiction.)
 
Granted that Christians intend to worship God, the One, who is Absolute and in no way finite or limited…

Christians compromise and undermine the One on several fronts…
  1. They make distinction within God between God’s nature and God’s person (i.e., between ousia and hypostasis).
  2. They extend this problem by multiplying persons (hypostases) within God, claiming that God is three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
  3. Already multiplied by these internal relations, God is then identified with something finite, namely a human being, contradicting the divine in the most crass way.

For the most part, the doctrine of the Trinity, which is the source of all of these problems, stands in contradiction to what Christians say about divine unity. For instance, one can read what Thomas Aquinas says on divine unity and the doctrine of creation without problems with regards to substance. But when he passes over into matters of the Trinity, which can only be known by revelation, the whole thing becomes incoherent with his previous claims (the One is divided by the “real relations” between the persons).

Yet it is particularly with the doctrine of the Incarnation, the idea that God became a human being, that strays into territory that seems decidedly pagan, insofar as something finite becomes identified as God.
Respectfully,

Christians are not the ones placing limitations on God’s being, you are. You limit God to your ability to comprehend Him and His form.

HC
 
The doctrine of the Incarnation is a straightforward contradiction because God is made subject to limitations and finitude. The idea that God is even capable of being a human person violates everything one means when they say God is the One, or Absolute, etc.
Again, you are trying to impart “logic” onto God and therefor limiting Him to that logic.

That is why your beliefs are flawed. You use human logic and human comprehension to “explain” it. God is more than human. God becoming flesh is INCLUSIVE to what He is not EXCLUSIVE.

You are saying God can’t be human if He is God. There mere fact that He is God and created humans means He can be either, or, or both and all at the same time. Nothing is impossible for God.

God is the great I AM. He can be anything He wants and not detract from what He is.

HC
 
This is simply not the case with God, whose existence and essence are one (to put it, and indeed this whole conversation, in very traditional language).
I’m not sure “existence” and “essence” are exactly the same in all Christian theologies. Protestant Process theology, Orthodox theology might disagree. Are you familiar with the term “panentheism”? Ultimately the Trinity is something mystical, not fully open to rationality. It is believed because that is the way God has revealed Himself through the Christian scriptures.

You might appreciate a Christian Eastern Orthodox treatment of the subject better than the Catholic one. Catholic theology is much more Scholastic. Then again, perhaps a Muslim would understand that better. I do think the Catholic theology tends to try and categorize and conceptualize some things alot. “Apophatic theology”, negative theology, is very important too in Christianity.
 
Yet it is particularly with the doctrine of the Incarnation, the idea that God became a human being,
Yet the information Muslims have about Jesus comes from Christians. My opinion is that Muhammed, like Joseph Smith, wasn’t clever enough to manufacture his own god.
 
“God cannot create a rock that God cannot lift”
That is because there can not be something greater or above him. If God made a rock that he couldn’t lift, then the rock becomes greater than him in its strength, which goes against the definition of the who God is

But the incarnation of the Word is not similar to this. Jesus took on a human nature but still ** was divine and God **. At that point he, he had two natures, neither of them interfers with the other. The scenario is not the same as the rock
 
A God who is capable of being weak is not God at all.
While strictly speaking this is true, God being omnipotent, this statement does not contravene Christianity belief. God is not weak in the sense that He is omnipotent. This is what Islam believes too.

However God is love, which Islam does not believe. Islam does not believe that God is love. Therefore Islam puts a limitation on God since it cannot believe that God is capable of loving human beings.
God is Infinite. Subjecting God to the finite in any way, violates God.
God become human does not violate His infinity. While being human He is still God, if this is what you want to know. You are violating God’s infinity if you say he cannot be human at the same time being God.
God being human falls in the same category as God creating a rock that God cannot lift.
Not at all. God’s love is infinite. You do not understand this aspect of God since Islam does not subscribe to the fact that God is love.

It is because of his love that he becomes human. It is his choice and not because he is being forced to.
 
The doctrine of the Incarnation is a straightforward contradiction because God is made subject to limitations and finitude. The idea that God is even capable of being a human person violates everything one means when they say God is the One, or Absolute, etc.
In other words, you believe God has limitations (i.e. is not capable of being a human person) ?
 
I apologize for basically bumping this old thread, but the issues raised here have come up again in a couple of different threads and it seemed easiest to just resurrect this thread where my basic point was made very succinctly. I will respond to the numerous objections that were raised at the end, though most of those objections were one and the same: namely, that it is Islam (and in effect Judaism) that is putting a limit on God by saying that God cannot become incarnate.

This is simply false. As I pointed out above, the Christian idea of Incarnation involves a contradiction in the very idea of what we mean when we say ‘God’ and as such is non-sense. It is like talking about round squares.

God is the One, or Being. All beings, in and of themselves nothing, only have their existence from God who is Being. God is not a thing and to make God into a thing is obviously idolatrous. To say that God can also become a thing (and remain God at the same time) is to simply misunderstand what is meant when one says the word ‘God’. God already embraces all that is in the fullness of intimacy; the finite is not some foreign space that God needs to enter or could enter in some manner that is new (in effect Christianity says that God is somehow absent from the world, there is some power in God that has yet to be fulfilled in the absence of an Incarnation). Effectively, this reduces God to a thing, over against the world, transforming God into something finite twice over (God is not fully, completely and perfectly present to the world precisely as God, and then God becomes something finite). This is why Islam will always find the doctrine of the Incarnation…pagan.

To put it another way, the Incarnation suggests that there is a way that God could be more intimate with creation. This is simply false. All of creation, always, already, is only what it is because it’s reality is God, the fullness of Being, Wahdat al-Wujud.

Furthermore, the defence that God is so beyond human understanding that contradictory and meaningless statements can be said about God without holding the speaker responsible is a conversation ender. It is to justify irrationality of the most crass sort. Obviously if one endorses irrationality, then there is little to talk about.

I wanted to address this last post, as well…
God is not weak in the sense that He is omnipotent. This is what Islam believes too.

However God is love, which Islam does not believe. Islam does not believe that God is love. Therefore Islam puts a limitation on God since it cannot believe that God is capable of loving human beings. God become human does not violate His infinity. While being human He is still God, if this is what you want to know. You are violating God’s infinity if you say he cannot be human at the same time being God.

…God’s love is infinite. You do not understand this aspect of God since Islam does not subscribe to the fact that God is love. It is because of his love that he becomes human. It is his choice and not because he is being forced to.
As a Muslim, one frequently runs into this claim: that Islam does not believe that God is Love. I am not sure what the origin of this objection is. Nonetheless, Love is, in fact, one of the divine names, in Islam and Muslims all around the world recite Love (al-Wadud) as one of the 99 Beautiful Names of God every day: e.g., when they go through their prayer beads. I have used Love as a divine name on several occasions in other posts.
 
So your argument is that God is in fact a limited being?

Because the idea that God is simply an aeon, and not a god is not something Jews would agree with.
 
So your argument is that God is in fact a limited being?
…the effect of the Christian idea of “Incarnation” is that it turns God into a limited being.

This is why I said: “Effectively, [the Incarnation] reduces God to a thing, over against the world, transforming God into something finite twice over (God is not fully, completely and perfectly present to the world precisely as God, and, then, God becomes something finite [a human being]). This is why Islam will always find the doctrine of the Incarnation…pagan.”
Because the idea that God is simply an aeon, and not a god is not something Jews would agree with.
i have no idea what you are saying here, but with regards to the account of god, judaism and islam are virtually indistinguishable.
 
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