Basic Questions on Catholicism

[rr1213]

Just so you know, the question of whether Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Christ is an issue that divides most Protestants and Catholics. As noted, the Catholic position is that she remained virgin. Most Protestants, in contrast, will refer to references in scripture to Christ’s brothers and sisters as evidence that Mary did not remain ever-Virgin. Catholics hold that these references indicate a relationship of kin other than sibling (such as step-brother or cousin, perhaps there are also other Catholic interpretations as well).

 

[Valke2]

Most Protestants, in contrast, will refer to references in scripture to Christ’s brothers and sisters as evidence that Mary did not remain ever-Virgin. Catholics hold that these references indicate a relationship of kin other than sibling (such as step-brother or cousin, perhaps there are also other Catholic interpretations as well).

Thanks.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Does the Bible say what happens to Joseph after the birth of Jesus?

Second Question: I seem to remember someone arguing that Mary remained a virgin, but I’ve also read about Jesus having a brother. Does Mary remain a virgin after the birth of Jesus? Is James’ mother someone else?

Thanks.

There have been ideas about Jesus & Satanael being brothers - there have also been ideas about the Apostle Thomas Didymus (= “twin”) being brothers. Mormon ideas about the fall of satan recall the Satanael theory, though not all Mormons accept them as Mormon scripture.​

Probably the majority of Protestants consider that Jesus had uterine brothers, as the letter of the gospels suggests.

Orthodox & Catholics agree that Jesus had no uterine brothers - as for how to account for the texts which suggest otherwise, there are different favoured explanations in each traditions; what is agreed, is that Mary was ever-virgin.

In Catholic tradition, the virginity of Mary is conceptualised as:

• virginity before bearing the Child Jesus
• v. while bearing Him
• v. after bearing Him.
  Quite what this requires one to believe gynaecologically is a little fuzzy: does it require one to believe that the integrity of the hymen of Mary was preserved; or, can she be ever-virgin even without an intact hymen ? There was a debate over this in the early 1950s. The doctrinal affirmation by the Church is unambiguous - she was ever-virgin. What this “adds up to” biologically is what is fuzzy.

There is a (fourth-century ?) text, of Egyptian origin, called “The Death of Joseph” - it represents him as dying at the age of 111, & may be the (or a) source for the conception in Western art of Saint Joseph as an old man. He is also present, in a cameo role, in the “Infancy Gospel of Thomas the Egyptian Philosopher”; which is not the same as the (famous ? notorious ?) “Gospel of Thomas”, which is a collection of 114 sayings ascribed to Jesus

There are two Jameses -

• 1 - “the Greater”
  &
• 2 - “the Less”
  1 = the James the Apostle who is member of the inner group of the disciples, with Peter & John; he is the brother of John, and thus one of the pair whom Jesus calls “sons of thunder”. This is the James who is executed by Herod in Acts 12, the James who according to a ninth-century tradition is buried at Compostella

2 is also an Apostle, traditionally said to be the author of the letter of James in the New Testament, & first bishop of Jerusalem. This is the James “the Just” who is said to have been put to death in 62 AD. This James is the one who is mentioned in the second-century Clementine literature.

2 is called “brother of Jesus”, because that is how the author of the letter of James describes himself.

There were bishops in Mesopotamia in the second & third centuries who were thought to be relatives of Jesus - & there is an anecdote about descendants of St. Jude who were interviewed by the Emperor Domitian - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desposyni

Hope this helps ##

 

[Aureole]

I asked because of the story of him arguing with the priests. Is Joseph the model of celebicy that the priesthood is based on? Or is it Jesus? Or both?

Valke2, I apologize if this has been answered already but priestly celibacy is based off the celibacy of Jesus. There are a number of other theological reasons (Sacerdotalis Caelibatus, it’s quite long though) but that’s the primary reason.

St. Joseph is discussed in about the best detail we can manage here.

 

[Valke2]

Valke2, I apologize if this has been answered already but priestly celibacy is based off the celibacy of Jesus. There are a number of other theological reasons (Sacerdotalis Caelibatus, it’s quite long though) but that’s the primary reason.

St. Joseph is discussed in about the best detail we can manage here.

THanks. I don’t think anyone had answered that yet. Interesting stuff.

 

[MariaG]

Also part of Mary being ever virgin comes from Tradition.

Tradition has it that Mary was a consecrated virgin to the Temple as was a practice of the times. Mary expected to always remain a virgin and never to have children.

There is also scripture on this. Some that particularly like is the foreshadowing of Mary and the Ark.

It can be found at Scripture Catholic.

Mary - the Immaculate Ark of the New Covenant

And more general, THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY

I find compelling the comparison of Mary and the Ark.

The Ark carried the word of God. No one could touch it or defile it.

Mary carried the Word (Jesus), no one could touch her.

There is much more on the site, but as I said, I personally find the Ark of the New Covenant most compelling.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Sixtus]

In the Lord’s day, it was not uncommon for men and women to consecrate themselves to a life of celibacy and to worship God daily in the temple.

If a young girl consecrated herself as a virgin, she was usually put under the protectorate of a temple elder who watched out for her spiritual development and protected her reputation and virtue, while no doubt being on hand to distract any interests from wanten young men. What we might today call ‘a spiritual director’.

Elders were very devout men of the laity, who were of impeccable reputation for holiness, devotion and humility. I speculate that Nichodemus may have been an elder.

Mostly, they were men who had raised a family and become widowed, Such men were usually chosen to be the spiritual directors and loco parentis of conscrated virgins.

The Eastern Church has the tradition that Joseph was an elder. That he had been chosen to look after Mary.

One of the worst things that could happen to a conscrated virgin in the care of an elder, was for her to become pregant. The temple would have taken a very dim view of it. He would have been harshly punished for defiling a consecrated virgin.

Some Eastern traditions have it that that was the dilema facing Joseph, that Mary [unbekown to him, made pregnant by the Power of the Holy Spirit], on learning that she was pregnant, was panic stricken. Hence the visitation from the Angel who told him that the baby she was carrying was conceived by the Power of God.

The same tradition has it that widower Joseph was a lot older than the young Mary. The children from his marriage grown up. These by definition, when he married Mary, were Jesus’ step brothers. Aramaic does not have a word for ‘step’ brother. They would simply be known as 'brothers [and sisters].

That is the Eastern Tradition. In the West, we believe they were cousins of the Lord. In Aramaic, cousins would also have been known as ‘brothers and sisters’.

Either way, we know Mary was a virgin all her life. It is inconceivable to imagine the Mother of the Word of God having sex. Personally I find that as near to blasphemy as one can get. The womb which bore the Son of God, being contaminated by urge of the flesh! Her womb was a living sanctuary.

JW’s hold that Mary went on to have 10-children with Joseph. How sick can it get? I cannot even discuss it with protestants, such is the disdain I feel at the thought of the Mother of God being associated with urges of the flesh. She was either way, a consecrated virgin.

 

[Valke2]

In the Lord’s day, it was not uncommon for men and women to consecrate themselves to a life of celibacy and to worship God daily in the temple.

To be clear, there’s nothing in the teachings of Judaism that would suggest that celibacy was ever condoned as a means of worshipping God, with a few notable exceptions to the rule. Did you mean “the Temple”? Or are you referring to a religion other than Judaism here? Do you have a citation to the view that celibacy for God was common amoung 1st century Jews?

 

[Aureole]

Here’s the source that tradition comes from MariaG. You probably know it already but some others may not. It’s a good short read, quite enjoyable in my opinion.

 

[Valke2]

Thanks. Reading it now.

How do you like the Catholic Encyclopedia. I have the Encyclopedia of Judaism, but I’m not crazy about it.

 

[Valke2]

On a completely unrelated note, do you ever think about how difficult it must have been to write all this stuff down 2,000 -3,000 years ago?

 

[blessedtoo]

Love the topic!

To be clear, there’s nothing in the teachings of Judaism that would suggest that celibacy was ever condoned as a means of worshipping God, with a few notable exceptions to the rule. Did you mean “the Temple”? Or are you referring to a religion other than Judaism here? Do you have a citation to the view that celibacy for God was common amoung 1st century Jews?

I just went to see the Dead Sea Scrolls and they spoke about the Essenes, the group they speculate as being the caretakers of the Scrolls. This group, it is alleged, was practicing celibacy, although that was not considered the norm at the time. What do you know about this?

On a completely unrelated note, do you ever think about how difficult it must have been to write all this stuff down 2,000 -3,000 years ago?

Seeing the Scrolls made me realize what a massive undertaking it was to be the one responsible for transcription in this era. Definately not a job I would ever want!

 

[Montalban]

Does the Bible say what happens to Joseph after the birth of Jesus?

Yes it does. We find Joseph leading his family to safety in Egypt.
Matthew 2:19cf
But if you mean ‘what happened’ in a ‘total life-story’ type of way the Bible gives very little information about Joseph, and his end is not told of.

Second Question: I seem to remember someone arguing that Mary remained a virgin, but I’ve also read about Jesus having a brother. Does Mary remain a virgin after the birth of Jesus? Is James’ mother someone else?

Thanks.

There’s circumstantial evidence in the Bible (as well as ‘tradition’) that says Jesus was the only child by Mary.

When He was on the cross He speaks to John and Mary, committing His mother into John’s care; He is looking after the welfare of His mother. If James were His brother, than this would have been his responsibility.

If you have the time, and after-all you want the ‘Catholic’ opinion, have a look at
newadvent.org/cathen/08504a.htm

 

[rciadan]

Second Question: I seem to remember someone arguing that Mary remained a virgin, but I’ve also read about Jesus having a brother. Does Mary remain a virgin after the birth of Jesus? Is James’ mother someone else?

Thanks

The one I think answers this question better than anyone else ever has is St. Jerome in his letter to Helvidius, around 400 AD. Go to www.newadvent.org/fathers/3007.htm

 

[zerinus]

Just so you know, the question of whether Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Christ is an issue that divides most Protestants and Catholics. As noted, the Catholic position is that she remained virgin. Most Protestants, in contrast, will refer to references in scripture to Christ’s brothers and sisters as evidence that Mary did not remain ever-Virgin. Catholics hold that these references indicate a relationship of kin other than sibling (such as step-brother or cousin, perhaps there are also other Catholic interpretations as well).

Actually, IMHO the Bible makes it pretty clear that she did NOT temain a virgin throughout her life:

Matthew 1:

24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS."

“Knew her not till …” implies that he did “know her” after she gave birth to her “first born son”.

zerinus

 

[LilyM]

Actually, IMHO the Bible makes it pretty clear that she did NOT temain a virgin throughout her life:

Matthew 1:

24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS."

“Knew her not till …” implies that he did “know her” after she gave birth to her “first born son”.

zerinus

Read the OT - it talks about Michal (wife of King David, if memory serves) who “had no children until the day she died” - does this mean she had children AFTER death? :bigyikes:

And Paul in one of his epistles speaks of us proclaiming the Lord’s death UNTIL he comes - does this mean that we will cease AFTER he comes again? Why would we?

‘until’ implies that an act or state (eg Mary’s virginity) continues up to a certain point - doesn’t mean it necessarily ceases at that point.

The best evidence of Mary’s intention to remain virgin is her conversation with the angel. Note that Gabriel doesn’t tell her she will fall pregnant immediately or even prior to her marriage.

Yet she raises the question of her virginity. If she intended her marriage to include consummation the normal response would be to assume that the child would naturally be conceived soon after the wedding night. There would be no ‘how can this happen’

 

[Valke2]

Love the topic!

I just went to see the Dead Sea Scrolls and they spoke about the Essenes, the group they speculate as being the caretakers of the Scrolls. This group, it is alleged, was practicing celibacy, although that was not considered the norm at the time. What do you know about this?

Seeing the Scrolls made me realize what a massive undertaking it was to be the one responsible for transcription in this era. Definately not a job I would ever want!

I don’t know a lot about the scrolls, I have a few books on them that I haven’t read yet. There was one book I think that was originally thought to discuss celibacy, called the Manual of Discipline. But it has since been found, I think, that none of the scrolls actually call for celibacy. Whether or not the group was Essences is still being debated, I think. With christian scholars saying yes and Jewish scholars saying no (I’m sure that’s too simplistic).

 

[Valke2]

When He was on the cross He speaks to John and Mary, committing His mother into John’s care; He is looking after the welfare of His mother. If James were His brother, than this would have been his responsibility.

excellent point.

 

[Valke2]

Actually, IMHO the Bible makes it pretty clear that she did NOT temain a virgin throughout her life:

Matthew 1:

24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS."

“Knew her not till …” implies that he did “know her” after she gave birth to her “first born son”.

zerinus

Your argument seems sound. The response that follows it here doesn’t ring true to me. Sounds a little forced. But, the poster that said if Jesus had a brother, he would not have had to ask John to take care of Mary while he was on the cross, makes a lot of sense to me.

It is possible, I suppose that if Mary didn’t remain a virgin but she also didn’t have any children. Then Jesus would not have been able to rely on his step siblings, perhaps, and would still ask John to look after Mary. But if Mary didn’t have any children, then how would anyone know if she had relations with Joseph? Anyway, its obvious that many Catholics and the Church do not interpert the scripture the same way as some other branches of Christianity.

 

[zerinus]

Read the OT - it talks about Michal (wife of King David, if memory serves) who “had no children until the day she died” - does this mean she had children AFTER death?

That is just bad logic, and incorrect use of the language. Words need to be understood in their context. In the above example, “until” clearly means “never,” because it is understood that no one can have children after they are dead. But in the case of Joseph and Mary, the use of the word would be, grammatically and lexically, utterly meaningless, inappropriate, and unnecessary, if the intention was to convey the idea that he “did not know her” at all.

And Paul in one of his epistles speaks of us proclaiming the Lord’s death UNTIL he comes - does this mean that we will cease AFTER he comes again? Why would we?

I am not what you are referring to here. You need to give references so I know what you are talking about.

‘until’ implies that an act or state (eg Mary’s virginity) continues up to a certain point - doesn’t mean it necessarily ceases at that point.

That is just wrong. The context implies precisely that. The context determines the meaning. I did a computer search, and found that the word “until” occurs 350 times in the Bible—far too many to quote as examples! So I will just pick out a couple:

Genesis 24:

33 And there was set meat before him to eat: but he said, I will not eat, until I have told mine errand. And he said, Speak on.

So does that mean that he did not intend to eat after he had “told his errand”? “Until” implies the opposite, that his “not eating” was to last only for the duration it took him to “tell his errand,” after which he should eat. Here is another:

Genesis 27:

44 And tarry with him a few days, until thy brother’s fury turn away;

Does that mean that he should “tarry with him” forever? Obviously not. The “tarrying with him” was to last for the duration of his “brother’s fury,” after which it should come to an end—as in fact it did.

The word “until” implies a restriction in time or space for a limited duration, after which the restriction should come to an end. that is the correct lexical meaning of it.

The best evidence of Mary’s intention to remain virgin is her conversation with the angel. Note that Gabriel doesn’t tell her she will fall pregnant immediately or even prior to her marriage.

Yet she raises the question of her virginity. If she intended her marriage to include consummation the normal response would be to assume that the child would naturally be conceived soon after the wedding night. There would be no ‘how can this happen’

That is moot. She obviously understood the angel to be saying that she should become pregnant immediately, before her marriage was consummated with Joseph, therefore she raises that question.

zerinus