Basis for Battle between St. Michael and Satan?

[Georgea]

Hi,

I’m new to the forums. I was hoping someone could help clarify where the story of St. Michael casting Satan out of Heaven comes from. Is this Church tradition or are there biblical passages that point to this story?

Thanks,
Georgea

 

[system]

Hi,

I’m new to the forums. I was hoping someone could help clarify where the story of St. Michael casting Satan out of Heaven comes from. Is this Church tradition or are there biblical passages that point to this story?

Thanks,
Georgea

I’m no expert and I’m interested in the answers to this also. It seems there are both scriptural passages and church tradition as well as some apocryphal info on this.
Here’s the first source I found that includes some of all of the above.
newadvent.org/cathen/10275b.htm

 

[lak611]

I’m no expert and I’m interested in the answers to this also. It seems there are both scriptural passages and church tradition as well as some apocryphal info on this.
Here’s the first source I found that includes some of all of the above.
newadvent.org/cathen/10275b.htm

Check out Revelation 12:7-9 for the Scriptural reference.

 

[jbuck919]

Well, just to add to the conversation:

When I was in (public in the US sense) high school, I was known to be staunchly Catholic, and one day my very challenging English teacher (a weird bird who was not at all popular but who was the right kind of teacher for me) asked me as a challenge to find the biblical reference to just this topic. Though more biblically literate than most 16-year-old Catholics at the time, I decided on the expedient of asking one of the evangelical fundamentalist Baptists who were in abundance even at that time. They were and are, of course, proud of claiming to know the Bible chapter and verse. He couldn’t help me either.

The truth is, as others here have implied, that this is not entirely a biblical story at all. However, it has a long tradition. Its story was the subject of texts of Renaissance motets, and as a professional church musician that’s how I can put a terminus ad quem on it, but I imagine it is far older than that. It is in the public conscience partly through its transmission in Church tradition, but also partly (perhaps largely) because of its exploitation by John Milton in Paradise Lost.

BTW Paradise Lost may be a great work of literature, but please no one use Milton as a religious source. He was, as I have seen him called, a tissue of heresies even for a protestant of his time.

 

[asquared]

the concordance for the NAB gives these references for Michael
Dan 10:13, 21, 12:1
Jude 9 (this reference comes the Jewish apocryphal book of Moses)
Rev 12:7
“this then is the basis of the whole ecclesiastical tradition on Michael”

 

[Liberian]

Georgea,

Hello and welcome to the Catholic Answers Forums. I hope you have a blessed and fruitful time here.

Somebody else has already pointed you to the passage in Revelation about Michael and Satan. It’s a good answer.

• Liberian

 

[Georgea]

Thanks for the feedback. Revelation 12 describes Satan being case out of heaven. I had heard that 1/3 of all the angels followed Satan and this is consistant with Revelation 12:4 which alludes to the dragon sweeping 1/3 of the stars out of heaven.

It really doesn’t explain why, though. I heard that Isaiah 14:12-17 and Ezekiel 28:11-19 refer to Satan being a favored angel at one time and sort of explain how he turned evil. (Though the passages in Ezekiel seem to have him referring to the King of Tyre.).

Still, I wonder when he was cast from heaven. There are several passages in Job (Job 1:6 is one of them) in which the angels present themselves before God and Satan is with them. This seems to imply to me that Satan has not yet been cast out of heaven. Perhaps I’m interpretting this incorrectly…I don’t know. Does anyone have any references for when Revelation 12:7-9 is believed to have occurred?

Georgea

 

[tee_eff_em]

Don’t forget Luke 10:18
Jesus said, “I have observed Satan fall like lightning from the sky.”]
It doesn’t add much information, but there it is.

tee

 

[Deacon_Joseph]

Thanks for the feedback. Revelation 12 describes Satan being case out of heaven. I had heard that 1/3 of all the angels followed Satan and this is consistant with Revelation 12:4 which alludes to the dragon sweeping 1/3 of the stars out of heaven.

It really doesn’t explain why, though. I heard that Isaiah 14:12-17 and Ezekiel 28:11-19 refer to Satan being a favored angel at one time and sort of explain how he turned evil. (Though the passages in Ezekiel seem to have him referring to the King of Tyre.).

Still, I wonder when he was cast from heaven. There are several passages in Job (Job 1:6 is one of them) in which the angels present themselves before God and Satan is with them. This seems to imply to me that Satan has not yet been cast out of heaven. Perhaps I’m interpretting this incorrectly…I don’t know. Does anyone have any references for when Revelation 12:7-9 is believed to have occurred?

Georgea

Job is one of the Books of Wisdom, along with Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Song of Songs, Wisdom, and Sirach. The Student Bible for Catholics states that it was written between the 7th and 5th centuries B.C. Some theologians believe it was written between 2000 and 1700 B.C.

Many believe The Revelation to John is an example of apocalyptic literature predicting the end of the world. Others think it was describing the prosecution of Christians by the Roman Empire. The Catholic Bible says it was written sometime between the years A.D. 81 to 96. I wish I knew more about it.

 

[suburbanbanshee]

Don’t forget that a lot of this stuff was common knowledge for Jews and Christians of that time and place. Jesus and the evangelists didn’t have to explain it. And the Church remembers, so it didn’t need to be in the Bible at all.

For example, suppose Jesus were living today and started using Cinderella in a parable, or said that something was a Cinderella story, or told Martha that Mary was Cinderella and had chosen the better part.

Would any of us be confused by His references? No.
Would the Church remember Cinderella’s story? Yes.
Would Cinderella be in the Bible? No.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Legends of the Jews by Louis Ginzberg

has something on this tooo,

The host of angels led by him did likewise, in spite of the urgent representations of Michael, who was the first to prostrate himself before Adam in order to show a good example to the other angels. Michael addressed Satan: “Give adoration to the image of God! But if thou doest it not, then the Lord God will break out in wrath against thee.” Satan replied: "If He breaks out in wrath against me, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God, I will be like the Most High! "At once God flung Satan and his host out of heaven, down to the earth, and from that moment dates the enmity between Satan and man.’

classiclit.about.com/library/bl-etexts/lginzberg/bl-lginzberg-legends-1-2f.htm

 

[mdgspencer]

Saint Thomas Aquinas said Satan and his angels rebelled at the time of their creation. They rebelled to know that God was going to be made man, Jesus Christ, for the sake of the human race.
This perhaps is only an important speculation. However, I have thought of his remark often since I first heard it years ago.
Perhaps by the way this makes sense too since no one in heaven in the sight of God can sin, whether humans or angels. So it seems unlikely that they rebelled later, after their creation.

Thanks for the feedback. Revelation 12 describes Satan being case out of heaven. I had heard that 1/3 of all the angels followed Satan and this is consistant with Revelation 12:4 which alludes to the dragon sweeping 1/3 of the stars out of heaven.

It really doesn’t explain why, though. I heard that Isaiah 14:12-17 and Ezekiel 28:11-19 refer to Satan being a favored angel at one time and sort of explain how he turned evil. (Though the passages in Ezekiel seem to have him referring to the King of Tyre.).

Still, I wonder when he was cast from heaven. There are several passages in Job (Job 1:6 is one of them) in which the angels present themselves before God and Satan is with them. This seems to imply to me that Satan has not yet been cast out of heaven. Perhaps I’m interpretting this incorrectly…I don’t know. Does anyone have any references for when Revelation 12:7-9 is believed to have occurred?

Georgea

 

[love4mary]

As a side note to this topic. My 13 year old asked a very good question last night. I had told him that once in heaven, we would know NO sadness or sorrow…etc…and that once in heaven, we would spend an eternity in that happiness. Then he asked me this question:

“If you cannot get kicked out of heaven, how did Satan get kicked out?”

He is new to the Catholic Christian faith and has many questions for me, some I am stumped on.

 

[Sr_Sally]

As a side note to this topic. My 13 year old asked a very good question last night. I had told him that once in heaven, we would know NO sadness or sorrow…etc…and that once in heaven, we would spend an eternity in that happiness. Then he asked me this question:

“If you cannot get kicked out of heaven, how did Satan get kicked out?”

He is new to the Catholic Christian faith and has many questions for me, some I am stumped on.

That really is an excellent question! I don’t know the official answer, but I would think it has something to do with the difference between humans and angels. They start in heaven and we start on earth. During our journey to heaven we have plenty of opportunities to reject God’s offers and denounce him. If we do that and never repent, we don’t make it even as far as purgatory. Since the angels are already in heaven any rejection of God can only cast them out of heaven. They are privilaged to be in God’s presence from the very beginning, I don’t think they get the same chances we do.

 

[st_ignatius110]

That really is an excellent question! I don’t know the official answer, but I would think it has something to do with the difference between humans and angels. They start in heaven and we start on earth. During our journey to heaven we have plenty of opportunities to reject God’s offers and denounce him. If we do that and never repent, we don’t make it even as far as purgatory. Since the angels are already in heaven any rejection of God can only cast them out of heaven. They are privilaged to be in God’s presence from the very beginning, I don’t think they get the same chances we do.

I have heard, though I am not sure if it is true, that the angels chose to rebel BEFORE they entered into the Beatific Vision and that when one does enter into the Beatific Vision it is impossible to reject God.

 

[Steven_Merten]

As a side note to this topic. My 13 year old asked a very good question last night. I had told him that once in heaven, we would know NO sadness or sorrow…etc…and that once in heaven, we would spend an eternity in that happiness. Then he asked me this question:

“If you cannot get kicked out of heaven, how did Satan get kicked out?”

He is new to the Catholic Christian faith and has many questions for me, some I am stumped on.

Hello love4mary,

Angels are spiritual but they can not possess eternal life, if they do possess eternal life, until after God’s first born, Jesus Christ, is eternally begotten of God (PSA 2:4)(ACT 13:32)(HEB 1:5)(ACT 2:33). Jesus assures us that no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are begotten of God (JOH 3:3). Satan is never begotten of God. Scripture tells us that angels, including fallen angel Satan, are in ‘heaven’ before Christ’s death and ressurection. What ever scripture is referring to as ‘heaven’ before Christ’s ressurection is not God’s eternal kingdom which is born into heaven through the blood of the Lamb. Satan is cast out of ‘heaven’ by the power of the blood of the Lamb (REV 12:7-12). Satan dies in the ‘second death’(REV 20). Saints born into eternal life as a part of God’s eternal kingdom, cannot be harmed by the second death (REV 2:11)(REV 20:6). Fallen angel Satan is never part of God’s eternal kingdom which is born into in heaven through the blood of the Lamb.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello Georgea,

I have an idea of the weapon that Archangel Michael uses to slay the devil out of heaven. It is the “sword of Christ’s mouth”, the “keys to the Kingdom” the power to bind beings to sin, which slays souls out of heaven and into hell.

Scripture descibes Jesus as having a “sword” or an “iron rod” coming forth from His mouth. If Jesus proclaims with His lips that a being’s sins are held bound in heaven, the being held bound to his sin cannot go to heaven and is cast into hell. Jesus proclaiming a being bound to his sins is therefore an eternally deadly weapon which casts beings out of heaven and into hell. Jesus gives this weapon to St. Peter and his Successors and it seems Archangel Micheal also has access to this spiritually deadly weapon.

Our great protector Michael the archangle casts Satan out of heaven into eternal damnation by the power of the blood of the Lamb. The sword of Christ’s mouth, the power to hold sins bound is an eternally deadly weapon, attained through Christ’s blood, and Jesus gave this weapon to St. Peter, St. Peter’s Successors, and it appears Michael, to use to protect us with it.

**NAB REV 12:5 **

She gave birth to a son–a boy destined to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod…
…Then war broke out in heaven; Michael and his angels battled against the dragon. Although the dragon and his angels fought back, they were overpowered and lost their place in heaven. The huge dragon, the ancient serpent known as the devil or Satan, the seducer of the whole world, was driven out; he was hurled down to earth and his minions with him. Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have salvation and power come, the reign of our God and the authority of his Anointed One. For the accuser of our brothers is cast out, who night and day accused them before our God. They defeated him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; love for life did not deter them from death.
**NAB REV 19:11 The King of Kings. **

The armies of heaven were behind him riding white horses and dressed in fine linen, pure and white. Out of his mouth came a sharp sword for striking down the nations. He will shepherd them with an iron rod; it is he who will tread out in the winepress the blazing wrath of God the Almighty. A name was written on the part of the cloak that covered his thigh: “King of kings and Lord of lords.”
NAB ISA 11:4 The Rule of Immanuel
He shall strike the ruthless with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked.
**NAB REV 1:16 **

A sharp, two-edged sword came out of his mouth…****…I hold the keys of death and the nether world."
**NAB MAT 16:13 **

Jesus replied, "Blest are you, Simon son of John! No mere man has revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. I for my part declare to you, you are ‘Rock,’ and on this rock I will build my church, and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it. I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven."NAB JOH 20:20
"Recieve the Holy Spirit. If you forgive men’s sins, they are forgiven them; if you hold them bound, they are held bound."NAB MAT 5:22
any man who uses abusive language toward his brother shall be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and if he holds him in contempt he risks the fires of Gehenna.