Batting Around the Great Apostasy

[Cincinnatus]

I was reading the article about the above mentioned topic, and I had some questions about it. Maybe someone here can enlighten me.

1. "You comment that of all the sects that have begun in the last 480 years, only theirs even claims to have apostolic authority. According to Ephesians 4:11-15, St. Paul tells us the true Church of Jesus Christ must have “apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers. . .” “[from the apologist]…As we saw before, this true Church must have apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelists and teachers (cf. 4:11).”
   If this is the case, why doesn’t the Roman Catholic church have apostles and prophets? Christ never said anything about cardinals, popes, archbishops, and so forth.
2. “Why would I ever leave the Catholic Church which was founded by Jesus Christ and received apostolic authority directly from Him and the Apostles?”
   At one point in church history, there were three popes–all of whom claim their authority back to Christ and His apostles. How do I know that the Roman Catholic pope was right instead of, say, the Greek Orthodox pope?
3. “Amos prophesied around 780 B.C. Among other things, he warned of the coming destruction of Israel that would, in fact, occur in 721 B.C…This text speaks of an apostasy in ancient Israel, not after the death of the last apostle in New Testament times.”
   How do you justify this statement?
4. As you have quoted Paul, you obviously view him as an authority on Christ’s Gospel. Paul describes in I Timothy 4 the apostasy of the church members with statements like:
   “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;…Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.”
   All Catholic priests must be celibate. Isn’t this “giving heed to doctrines of devils?”

 

[Michael_Howard]

envoymagazine.com/backissues/2.6/nutsandbolts.html

 

[ricko]

1.What’s in a name? Apostles are now called priests. If someone came up to you and said that his title was “Apostle” would that make him one? The Church of Christ says that it is the only church founded by Christ because its name says so. Doesn’t make it so.

2.Three claimed to be Pope but only one was and recognized by the Church.

3.Not familiar with that.

4.First, the Catholic Church has not forbidden anyone to marry. Many Catholics are married. Priests are not married because the bible says it is better not to marry so you can devote your life to God. You can choose not to be a priest and marry if you do not want to give your life over to God. There are some military units that require you to be single. I believe one is the honor guard of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. The Protestants and others departed from the faith (Catholic Church). Some religions require you to handle snakes or speak in tongues. Others require you to abstain from meats (the Hal Bop people). Catholics can eat any meat, in fact, no food is forbidden in the Catholic Church. At times we fast (which is approved in the bible) and will abstain from certain foods including meat. Nothing the Church does is against the teachings of the bible.

 

[kleary]

1. As you have quoted Paul, you obviously view him as an authority on Christ’s Gospel. Paul describes in I Timothy 4 the apostasy of the church members with statements like:
   “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;…Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.”
   All Catholic priests must be celibate. Isn’t this “giving heed to doctrines of devils?”

The problem here is understanding what Paul is actually talking about. Is “forbidding to marry” “priestly celibacy” or something else? Is “Abstaining from meats” “meatless Fridays” as done in the Catholic Church or another reason?

Paul wrote over 2000 years ago, when the practices mentioned by him were already happening and were about to happen in the near future. Something the readers of his day could relate to, that’s for sure.

The “forbidding to marry” thing Paul talks about is not a decision to remain celibate for the Kingdom of God as Jesus says in Matt. 19:11–12.

Look at the heretical Gnostic Albiguinses and Cathars who taught that matter and the human body is evil- that the marital act between husband and wife is evil. They forbade their followers, all of them, clergy and laymen, not to marry because they believed marriage and the marital act to be evil.

Is the “Abstaining from meat” for devotional and ascetic purposes as done today with “no meat on Fridays” in the Catholic Church, or for the same reason the Jews abstain from “non kosher” meat?

In ancient Judaism certain meats were declared “unclean” and you were not allowed to eat them. Simarly, back to the Gnostics, they declared that all flesh meat was evil, and unclean and could not be eaten.

Ironically, the ones who are claiming the Catholic Church violates Scripture in this area admire the Albiguinses, the ones St. Paul foretold of here.

Ken