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Augustine3
Guest
What if a couple only want 2 kids even though they could have more and have no serious reason to limit it to 2, would that be an offence/sin? If so, how serious?
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Gorgias
Guest
Would you think it would have been a sin if Jacob had said, “meh… I don’t want 12 kids. I’ll stop at two.” …?
How serious of an offense would it have been for there to have been two tribes of Israel rather than twelve?
How serious of an offense would it have been for there to have been two tribes of Israel rather than twelve?
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TheRealJuliane
Guest
Very serious. How would they stop God’s blessings of children unless they used artificial contraception or got a sterilization? Both of which are gravely sinful, mortal sins in fact.
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Gorgias
Guest
Gravely sinful, yes. Mortal sins? Depends…
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Augustine3
Guest
They use natural family planning for the rest of the lives after having 2 kids.Gravely sinful, yes. Mortal sins? Depends…
God bless,
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MarkInOregon
Guest
So its more about their desires and wants for their life–rather than concern about Gods will for their life? They don’t trust God in the bedroom? Anywhere else they don’t trust God?
Peace,
Mark
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Augustine3
Guest
It’s not about trust, they just don’t want the extra headache and physical running around which is quite demanding. This may sound selfish but it gets tiring one day after the next after the next after the next.
God bless,
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Usige
Guest
If it is a desire merely for one’s own comfort (i.e. I just can’t be bothered) then it is gravely offensive. If we put our desires above what God wants for us isn’t that a lack of trust? It is fine to say we aren’t ready right now, but to say “never again, its too much work” is just short of telling the Holy Spirit to take a flying leap. Discernment should happen continuously, not be a one time decision.
BTW we have 5, 2 teenagers (both with learning disabilities) and 3 under 5, so I am well aware of how demanding it is. Every time we think we can’t take anymore the Lord shows us we can. We just pray to the Lord “be it done according to your will.”
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Augustine3
Guest
Thanks for your post, you have presented some very interesting points.
Is there supporting evidence to support what you said e.g. catechism, canon law etc.?
P.S. If you don’t mind me asking but how on earth can you afford 5 kids with schools fees, clothing etc.? Does your wife work?
God bless,
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thesmiter1
Guest
My family did it with six with just my Dad working, and he made under $60,000 for the majority of the time, I believe. In fact, I think he barely makes over $70k now, and two of us support ourselves, lol. It’s possible to cut back, hand-me-down, buy clothes only on sale, buy food on sale, don’t eat out, don’t go on vacation, cut cable, get cheap phone service, buy used furniture, buy used cars, ect. I plan on doing the same (if marriage is my calling, which I am feeling at the moment). You’d be surprised what you can live without.
Mary_Gail_36
New member
Jacob had his children (more than 12, he had girls as well , Dinah being one sister) with 4 women though, (2 wives, 2 concubines). Rachel, the one wife he wanted only had 2 children, Joseph and Benjamin. She died giving birth to Benjamin.Would you think it would have been a sin if Jacob had said, “meh… I don’t want 12 kids. I’ll stop at two.” …?
How serious of an offense would it have been for there to have been two tribes of Israel rather than twelve?
So, if he had not been tricked into marrying Leah, he might just have had 2.
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Usige
Guest
Here are the parts of the catechism I think most directly relate to your question (bolding mine):
2367 speaks to how we are working with God’s plan in the transmission of life. 2368 speaks against regulating birth for selfish reasons. If one says we cannot have more because they will starve then putting off another child for now might be morally acceptable, but doing so purely for ones own selfish desires is not okay.
I work in the computer field so I make a good living. Because of that my wife has been able to stay home for the 18 years we’ve been married.
In specific school fees are easy because we home school. The two oldest know we will help with school, but they are responsible for making decisions and helping pay for their education (i.e. we will pay for a state school, but they have to cover the difference if they want to go to a private university). We also have a number of friends with kids and we share clothes around. Most kids outgrow their clothes long before they get worn out so we just have a list of which families have kids growing out of what for a given season. With larger families you can also buy in bulk without things going to waste or everyone getting sick of leftovers. Our kids don’t play organized sports or have over scheduled lives with 1000 activities a week. Between the 6 families we spend most our time with we have a total of 40+ kids between us; more than enough for almost any game you could want to play. Plus camping trips are a blast with that many kids around.
Long and short is you just plan and prioritize where you spend money. Funny thing is that we spend more and donate more to charity each year, but always seem to have more to spare. I mark that up to putting my trust in God. The more we have put our trust in him, the more blessed our lives have been.
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VeritasLuxMea
Guest
God has a will for the number of babies that this couple should have?
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Sillara
Guest
My darling and I were Protestant when we were married. We had three children, and then we said, “Ok, we’re done. Too much work, too much headache, too much trouble. Three is plenty.”
Then we converted to Catholicism, and artificial birth control was off the table. We also realized that our reasons for not wanting more children were simply selfishness. (I am too tired; it is too much work for me; I don’t want to spend my whole life chasing kids; kids take away money to spend on me.)
We went on to have three more children. My pregnancies are extremely hard on me physically, and my fertility is now in question. We will probably not have any more, simply because we might not be able to at all.
My husband works, and I stay home with our children, homeschooling them. (I also am a professional editor and work from home.)
It can be done. It is all about priorities.
Then we converted to Catholicism, and artificial birth control was off the table. We also realized that our reasons for not wanting more children were simply selfishness. (I am too tired; it is too much work for me; I don’t want to spend my whole life chasing kids; kids take away money to spend on me.)
We went on to have three more children. My pregnancies are extremely hard on me physically, and my fertility is now in question. We will probably not have any more, simply because we might not be able to at all.
My husband works, and I stay home with our children, homeschooling them. (I also am a professional editor and work from home.)
It can be done. It is all about priorities.
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SusanneT
Guest
I’m sure that is right, he determines fertility. If for whatever reasons - health, perceived poverty lifestyle or whatever a couple don’t want more children they might feel lead to abstinence in one way or another (for example NFP) but NFP is not fool proof and it all requires regular discernment
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Em_in_FL
Guest
Teaching from the Catechism:
2368 A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality:
When it is a question of harmonizing married love with the responsible transmission of life, the morality of the behavior does not depend on sincere intention and evaluation of motives alone; but it must be determined by objective criteria, criteria drawn from the nature of the person and his acts, criteria that respect the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love; this is possible only if the virtue of married chastity is practiced with sincerity of heart.156
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Em_in_FL
Guest
Not directly asked to me, but I’ll answer.
We have 4 kids - we’d love to have more. Yes, I have worked throughout our entire marriage (minus 4 maternity leaves).
The purpose of me working has grown over the years… first to help our financial situation, next to allow us to send our children to Catholic School, eventually to be our sole source of income when my husband lost his job… God’s hand has been in it the entire time, despite my efforts to quit at every possible window of opportunity (still hasn’t happened yet - almost 12 years into married life
)…We have a small house - all kids share rooms. We live within our means. We budget and bargain shop. I haven’t had my hair cut in a year.
Life can be challenging, but every bit of the love we receive from having children has been worth it - a thousand-fold over.
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HouseArrest
Guest
I believe that when done correctly (meaning without resentment), NFP can change hearts.
If a couple continues to practice NFP and has only 2 kids, then the reasons were serious.
That is simply my opinion. There is no backup from the Catechism for that.
If a couple continues to practice NFP and has only 2 kids, then the reasons were serious.
That is simply my opinion. There is no backup from the Catechism for that.
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Em_in_FL
Guest
On that note… YES, NFP has been an enormous blessing in our lives.
We’ve been able to prayerfully SPACE our children over the years.
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Xantippe
Guest
“They use natural family planning for the rest of the lives after having 2 kids.”
I agree with the poster who said that if they use NFP and have only 2 kids, then their reasons were very serious. That’s an awful lot of abstinence, assuming normal fertility.
I agree with the poster who said that if they use NFP and have only 2 kids, then their reasons were very serious. That’s an awful lot of abstinence, assuming normal fertility.
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