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Em_in_FL
Guest
It does make you actually THINK about the reasons you’re abstaining… which is what it’s supposed to do.
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Armor_of_Light
Guest
God bless you!Not directly asked to me, but I’ll answer.
We have 4 kids - we’d love to have more. Yes, I have worked throughout our entire marriage (minus 4 maternity leaves).
The purpose of me working has grown over the years… first to help our financial situation, next to allow us to send our children to Catholic School, eventually to be our sole source of income when my husband lost his job… God’s hand has been in it the entire time, despite my efforts to quit at every possible window of opportunity (still hasn’t happened yet - almost 12 years into married life
We have a small house - all kids share rooms. We live within our means. We budget and bargain shop. I haven’t had my hair cut in a year.
Life can be challenging, but every bit of the love we receive from having children has been worth it - a thousand-fold over.
My wife also hasn’t had a haircut in a looong time. And…she is still the most beautiful woman in the world and the essence of femininity.
Kids are a gift. Never refuse a gift.
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TheRealJuliane
Guest
2 kids is the worst. After that, you are not reinventing the wheel and you get better and more efficient, and the 4th, 5th, 6th, etc. do not add anything like the chaos that the first one brought. (This is not personal knowledge - we only had 2, but I have heard this from many parents of many children.)
You are underestimating yourself.
You are still saying, “No” to God’s blessings in your life.
I’d have had 6 but didn’t have the chance before my reproductive years were over. I don’t think my husband would have enjoyed having 6 kids though.
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sweetpetunia
Guest
I love this. So true!!!
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sweetpetunia
Guest
I love this, too! Awesome people here, I tell ya.
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Gorgias
Guest
I’m not certain that you meant it in this way, but this response sure sounds like you’re pointing to the use of NFP as birth control. Using it in this way is improper and is not the intent of the Church when they recommend NFP.
It’s meant to allow a couple to space out births, not to close themselves off to procreation indefinitely…
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mdleagedguy
Guest
My wife and I have eight children. We found that it was easier after the third and fourth because the children were able to entertain themselves. With one or two, the children demand more of the parents. With larger numbers of children, a lot of the siblings pay more attention to each other.
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sainthumbert
Guest
I disagree. If that was true in every single case, then Pope Paul VI used several unnecessary words in Humanae Vitae:
“If therefore there are well-grounded reasons for spacing births, arising from the physical or psychological condition of husband or wife, or from external circumstances, the Church teaches that married people may then take advantage of the natural cycles immanent in the reproductive system and engage in marital intercourse only during those times that are infertile, thus controlling birth in a way which does not in the least offend the moral principles which We have just explained.”
Why did the Pope make sure to write about the existence of well-grounded reasons if anyone who uses NFP automatically has well-grounded reasons?
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TCostello
Guest
According to my Pastor, using NFP as a means of birth control (not just spacing of children) unless serious medical conditions constitute the need, is a mortal sin because it interferes with God’s plan for you and your family. According to the OP, no such situations were mentioned and limiting a family to only 2 children because that is simply the parents desire is unacceptable and does not fit within the Magisterium.
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HouseArrest
Guest
Well, what I would say about that would be that those people who were not using NFP the right way, without resentment, would be the ones who needed those extra words.They are not the ones who were open to having their hearts changed.
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ahs
Guest
First, I’d like to point out that actively spacing births IS birth control. It is synonymous with “birth regulation”.
Second, the Church does not condemn birth control/regulation…it condemns contraception. In fact, the Church refers to birth control (usinng natural methods) as “responsible parenthood” (CCC 2368 and 2399).
Third, the Church does NOT say the “just reason” must be a “serious medical condition”. Your Pastor is not in conformity with the Church if he says that one needs a “serious medical condition” to avoid mortal sin. See CCC 2370, Casti connubii 59, Humanae Vitae 20, or Pope Pius’ “Allocution to Midwives” which states very cleary, “…Serious motives, such as those which not rarely arise from medical, eugenic, economic and social so-called “indications,” may exempt husband and wife from the obligatory, positive debt for a long period or even for the entire period of matrimonial life. From this it follows that the observance of the natural sterile periods may be lawful, from the moral viewpoint: and it is lawful in the conditions mentioned…”
Only the couple knows God’s plans for that couple’s family. Your Pastor is mistaken.
The OP did state the couple has no serious reason to avoid, yet they purposefully avoid. For that reason, in this hypothetical scenario, I would agree here that the couple is not in conformity with the purpose of marriage. However, in a real life situation, only that couple knows whether they have a just reason to avoid after 2 children. Maybe it’s the argue’er in me…but can any of us say that this couple is closed to the gift of children after having 2 children? What is the minimum number of children that a couple must have in order to show they are open to the gift of children? (No such number exists.)
The OP clarifies with this:
…they just don’t want the extra headache and physical running around which is quite demanding. This may sound selfish but it gets tiring one day after the next after the next after the next.
Who is to say that this is not a just reason to avoid? The Church makes no such claim. If this is a just reason to that couple…then it is a just reason. If they are using NFP to avoid…they have a just reason…otherwise, they’d not be avoiding during the fertile period…they’d be using contraception instead.
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severus68
Guest
Great post.First, I’d like to point out that actively spacing births IS birth control. It is synonymous with “birth regulation”.
Second, the Church does not condemn birth control/regulation…it condemns contraception. In fact, the Church refers to birth control (usinng natural methods) as “responsible parenthood” (CCC 2368 and 2399).
Third, the Church does NOT say the “just reason” must be a “serious medical condition”. Your Pastor is not in conformity with the Church if he says that one needs a “serious medical condition” to avoid mortal sin. See CCC 2370, Casti connubii 59, or Pope Pius’ “Allocution to Midwives” which states very cleary, “…Serious motives, such as those which not rarely arise from medical, eugenic, economic and social so-called “indications,” may exempt husband and wife from the obligatory, positive debt for a long period or even for the entire period of matrimonial life. From this it follows that the observance of the natural sterile periods may be lawful, from the moral viewpoint: and it is lawful in the conditions mentioned…”
Only the couple knows God’s plans for that couple’s family. Your Pastor is mistaken.
The OP did state the couple has no serious reason to avoid, yet they purposefully avoid. For that reason, in this hypothetical scenario, I would agree here that the couple is not in conformity with the purpose of marriage. However, in a real life situation, only that couple knows whether they have a just reason to avoid after 2 children. Maybe it’s the argue’er in me…but can any of us say that this couple is closed to the gift of children after having 2 children? What is the minimum number of children that a couple must have in order to show they are open to the gift of children? (No such number exists.)
The OP clarifies with this:
…they just don’t want the extra headache and physical running around which is quite demanding. This may sound selfish but it gets tiring one day after the next after the next after the next.
Who is to say that this is not a just reason to avoid? The Church makes no such claim. If this is a just reason to that couple…then it is a just reason. If they are using NFP to avoid…they have a just reason…otherwise, they’d not be avoiding during the fertile period…they’d be using contraception instead.
The CCC also refers to the education of children. Parents should educate here children and encourage them to go on to higher education if their children want to. Some may only be able to afford to educate 2 or 3 children.
Further, not everyone wants to live poor or even or have their children to wear 2nd hand clothes from others etc. It is a choice to be made. The Church does not say you need to live that way.
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TCostello
Guest
I’m sure you are the not the only person to “feel” this way, but our life here is not about what makes us “feel” good. We are here to save souls, starting with our own and then extending to our children and so on and so forth. If we have absolute trust in God, then everything we need will be provided and that doesn’t equate to everything we want. So what if a person is poor and so what if children wear second hand clothes…those should be the least of any of our concerns in life. The main concern is knowing God, loving God, and serving God. Is one doing any of those things by limiting his gifts (children) by telling him that a human knows what is best for their family over him. Absolutely not!Great post.
The CCC also refers to the education of children. Parents should educate here children and encourage them to go on to higher education if their children want to. Some may only be able to afford to educate 2 or 3 children.
Further, not everyone wants to live poor or even or have their children to wear 2nd hand clothes from others etc. It is a choice to be made. The Church does not say you need to live that way.
I have 5 children of my own and my husband and I went through the process of being scared of having more children (possibly for other reasons than the OP may have) and we tried to find “loop holes” in the Church to do what we wanted, but after much prayer the Holy Spirit softened our hearts and blessed us with the wisdom we needed to understand that our motives were wrong - they were selfish. This is really between the person posting this question and God and it doesn’t matter what any of us think or feel because this person has an obligation as a Catholic to find the Truth and not settle for some answer he/she finds on a forum. We all have an obligation to have informed consciences and that has nothing to do with what we “feel” is right or wrong. Truth does not conform to us, we have to conform to Truth.
To the OP…pray fervently about this and God will lead you to the answer and path which is best for your family.
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severus68
Guest
Wanting to educate your children is not about feeling good but about wanting to do the best for your children. The fact that the education of our children is specifically in the Cathechism shows that the Church sees the importance of education.
This life is a trial. I try to follow the teachings of Christ and I hope to see God one day.
Its one thing to be poor and quite another thing to be poor on purpose. We have worn second hand clothes and I was not ashamed. However, we have all worked hard to make better lives for ourselves and especially our children without forgetting God.
Its one thing to trust God and another thing to just let things be and say God will provide.
We have been given brains and abilities by God to use them. It is not for anyone but a husband and wife to make their own decisions about children with the help of a confessor. Ultimately, it is between them and God, not for anyone else to make assumptions or to try to impose their own views upon them.
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Moore11
Guest
I’m going to add a little something here even though it was not addressed to me.
We have 4 kids. Well, the 4th is due in december but for the purposes of this answer we have the Expenses of 4 kids. We have made some hard choices. But we are very blessed. I am a stay at home homeschooling dad. I dont work. My wife does. She makes a modest but decent wage. We have no plans to “limit” our family to conform with modern materialistic society. 5 kids would be quite easy to afford. Sure, we can’t put them all in ski lessons every year, we drive a minivan instead of the cool cars we want, and we bought our house when we had 1 kid at the top of the bubble so we are stuck in our home for a while so we just pile kids in rooms. It is quite easy and joyful. Fortunately we have grandparents and family who provide us with some pretty cool things for the kids, ski lessons, swim lessons, ballet etc. We live in an affordable area of the country. But even without any of that our lives would be more than complete. The idea of “how in the world” do you afford 5 kids is indicative of a broader societal problem that sees children as burdens and things that get in the way of our selfish “needs” of luxury. We are a 1 income family who has made sacrifices and choices to follow God’s will for us, not our own will. Every day I wake up I cannot wait to get the children up, every time I think my life is perfect it just gets better. does that mean that sometimes cleaning up poo smeared all over a crib is not fun. Absolutely! But I hope I get to do it for as long as God blesses us with children. Our job as parents is to raise saints. If it is God’s will for a family to be more “fruitful” than 2 children I have no idea why you would ever think of telling Him no and think you will not have to answer to Him later.
Curious? Why only 2? what is so "magic about that number? Why not just 1 or 12? Why is 2 the optimal number of children for so many? Honestly 5 kids is not that more expensive than 2. Unless you shop at the Gap, and want to send them to harvard and they expect to get every princess toy disney wants to sell them.
Disclaimer. I understand that many cannot have more than 2 or any children for that matter. I also understand that the OP did not specifically say that the OP’s view was to limit oneself to 2 children. I also understand that finances can and do play a big part of discernment.
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ahs
Guest
Well, it sounds like the OP is saying that this couple does not feel they can handle more than 2…hence the reason for stopping at 2.…Our job as parents is to raise saints. If it is God’s will for a family to be more “fruitful” than 2 children I have no idea why you would ever think of telling Him no and think you will not have to answer to Him later.
Curious? Why only 2? …
So, why does that have to mean that the couple is telling God “no”? Do we know how many children God has told this couple to have? Are we all capable of handling the same number of children? Did God make every couple alike in their abilites/tolerances/etc…?
The couple is using NFP to avoid…not contraception. That means that every time they DO have sex, they are putting their trust in God’s Hands, no? Can God not make a natural sex act fertile if He desires, or if He thinks the couple is ready for such? As unlikely as that may be…the possibility is there because the couple has chosen not to contracept. They are engaging in an act that is ordered, per se, toward procreation.
Also, the couple is using NFP…meaning they are NOT having sex in the fertile time…when hormones are at their peak and sex drives are typically higher…and abstinence is a challenge. No one decides for a frivolous reason to NOT have sex during the time they most want each other. I personally believe that the majority of people are such that their ability to abstain in the fertile time is directly related to the gravity of their reasons for abstaining. As the gravity of their reason decreases, so does the ability to abstain in that period. This is the case for my spouse and I, and for the hundreds of couple we know who use some form of NFP/NBR.
The very fact that the couple in the OP’s example has chosen NFP instead of contraception, tells me they are open to life. How? Because every month in that fertile window, they will have to decide…“do we REALLY want to abstain from sex right now? How serious is this reason we have for abstaining…that we are willing to sacrifice our desires for one another? Is our reason on the line enough such that we can ‘take a chance’ this month and throw caution to the wind? Etc…”
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Walking_Home
Guest
Moore11:
Well, it sounds like the OP is saying that this couple does not feel they can handle more than 2…hence the reason for stopping at 2.
So, why does that have to mean that the couple is telling God “no”? Do we know how many children God has told this couple to have? Are we all capable of handling the same number of children? Did God make every couple alike in their abilites/tolerances/etc…?
The couple is using NFP to avoid…not contraception. That means that every time they DO have sex, they are putting their trust in God’s Hands, no? Can God not make a natural sex act fertile if He desires, or if He thinks the couple is ready for such? As unlikely as that may be…the possibility is there because the couple has chosen not to contracept. They are engaging in an act that is ordered, per se, toward procreation.
Also, the couple is using NFP…meaning they are NOT having sex in the fertile time…when hormones are at their peak and sex drives are typically higher…and abstinence is a challenge. No one decides for a frivolous reason to NOT have sex during the time they most want each other. I personally believe that the majority of people are such that their ability to abstain in the fertile time is directly related to the gravity of their reasons for abstaining. As the gravity of their reason decreases, so does the ability to abstain in that period. This is the case for my spouse and I, and for the hundreds of couple we know who use some form of NFP/NBR.
The very fact that the couple in the OP’s example has chosen NFP instead of contraception, tells me they are open to life. How? Because every month in that fertile window, they will have to decide…“do we REALLY want to abstain from sex right now? How serious is this reason we have for abstaining…that we are willing to sacrifice our desires for one another? Is our reason on the line enough such that we can ‘take a chance’ this month and throw caution to the wind? Etc…”
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Moore11
Guest
I agree that every couple needs to dicern. I am not saying that you HAVE to have more than two, but it does seem like 2 is the norm.
NFP cannot be used for not conceiving if there are no grave/just reasons. Only God and the couple know what those reasons can be. I think we all agree on that. But I thing the attitude of " 2 kids is what I have always pictured" is not discernment but rather selfishness.
So, yes, for some couples 2 could be the number they are called to have. But prayer, discernment and an openness to life must be the deciding factors, not more than 2 kids means we cant go to disneyland this year and means I cant work my needless job for a false feeling of self worth.
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severus68
Guest
For the majority of Catholics, it is not an issue of not being able to go to Disneyland. Most do not have cars, they walk and take public transport. Ballet and ski lessons would not even be in the horizon for most people in the world. So if you understand that finances are key, then you know it is not about materialism when some need to make the sacrifice of long term abstinence to limit the number of children they have.I’m going to add a little something here even though it was not addressed to me.
We have 4 kids. Well, the 4th is due in december but for the purposes of this answer we have the Expenses of 4 kids. We have made some hard choices. But we are very blessed. I am a stay at home homeschooling dad. I dont work. My wife does. She makes a modest but decent wage. We have no plans to “limit” our family to conform with modern materialistic society. 5 kids would be quite easy to afford. Sure, we can’t put them all in ski lessons every year, we drive a minivan instead of the cool cars we want, and we bought our house when we had 1 kid at the top of the bubble so we are stuck in our home for a while so we just pile kids in rooms. It is quite easy and joyful. Fortunately we have grandparents and family who provide us with some pretty cool things for the kids, ski lessons, swim lessons, ballet etc. We live in an affordable area of the country. But even without any of that our lives would be more than complete. The idea of “how in the world” do you afford 5 kids is indicative of a broader societal problem that sees children as burdens and things that get in the way of our selfish “needs” of luxury. We are a 1 income family who has made sacrifices and choices to follow God’s will for us, not our own will. Every day I wake up I cannot wait to get the children up, every time I think my life is perfect it just gets better. does that mean that sometimes cleaning up poo smeared all over a crib is not fun. Absolutely! But I hope I get to do it for as long as God blesses us with children. Our job as parents is to raise saints. If it is God’s will for a family to be more “fruitful” than 2 children I have no idea why you would ever think of telling Him no and think you will not have to answer to Him later.
Curious? Why only 2? what is so "magic about that number? Why not just 1 or 12? Why is 2 the optimal number of children for so many? Honestly 5 kids is not that more expensive than 2. Unless you shop at the Gap, and want to send them to harvard and they expect to get every princess toy disney wants to sell them.
Disclaimer. I understand that many cannot have more than 2 or any children for that matter. I also understand that the OP did not specifically say that the OP’s view was to limit oneself to 2 children. I also understand that finances can and do play a big part of discernment.
What is wrong about going to Harvard? It is tough getting in and something to celebrate if you do.
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