Be Fruitful and Multiply (Round 2)

[Moore11]

For the majority of Catholics, it is not an issue of not being able to go to Disneyland. Most do not have cars, they walk and take public transport. Ballet and ski lessons would not even be in the horizon for most people in the world. So if you understand that finances are key, then you know it is not about materialism when some need to make the sacrifice of long term abstinence to limit the number of children they have.

What is wrong about going to Harvard? It is tough getting in and something to celebrate if you do.

I think you are missing the point. Most catholics in the US do not fit your description at all. I would say most Catholics in the US have cars. If you want to talk about world wide then you can also factor that most Catholics in third world countries who live in impoverished areas have way more than 2 kids. I think you know quite well that this phenomenon of 2 kids 2 car garage, 2 cars and 5 TVs is strictly a wealthy culture phenomenon.

Never did I post that anything is wrong with harvard, it’s just that some people think that an important factor on if they should bring another precious soul into this world is if they can have all of their college paid for.

You need to stop being so defensive, and re read my post. We are talking about two very different things.

Or do you think 'most Catholics" are prayerfully and unselfishly discerning God’s will for their family? Would that explain the MAJORITY of Catholics that use birth control?

 

[Moore11]

For the majority of Catholics, it is not an issue of not being able to go to Disneyland. Most do not have cars, they walk and take public transport. Ballet and ski lessons would not even be in the horizon for most people in the world. So if you understand that finances are key, then you know it is not about materialism when some need to make the sacrifice of long term abstinence to limit the number of children they have.

What is wrong about going to Harvard? It is tough getting in and something to celebrate if you do.

I can guarantee that most Catholics and people in general that have 2 or less kids in a first world country have WAY more income than my wife and I do.

 

[Walking_Home]

I think you are missing the point. Most catholics in the US do not fit your description at all. I would say most Catholics in the US have cars. If you want to talk about world wide then you can also factor that most Catholics in third world countries who live in impoverished areas have way more than 2 kids. I think you know quite well that this phenomenon of 2 kids 2 car garage, 2 cars and 5 TVs is strictly a wealthy culture phenomenon.

Never did I post that anything is wrong with harvard, it’s just that some people think that an important factor on if they should bring another precious soul into this world is if they can have all of their college paid for.

You need to stop being so defensive, and re read my post. We are talking about two very different things.

Or do you think 'most Catholics" are prayerfully and unselfishly discerning God’s will for their family? Would that explain the MAJORITY of Catholics that use birth control?

---

The majority of families I know – are not living in the lap of luxury. Having 2 vehicles – I do not consider an extravagance. Even when there is a SAH - mom or dad – it is good to have a vehicle at home for emergencies/ doctors/dentists appts/etc. - when the working spouse takes the other vehicle to work.

 

[Moore11]

---

The majority of families I know – are not living in the lap of luxury. Having 2 vehicles – I do not consider an extravagance. Even when there is a SAH - mom or dad – it is good to have a vehicle at home for emergencies/ doctors/dentists appts/etc. - when the working spouse takes the other vehicle to work.

Whoa whoa whoa people. I did not say that. Someone else said that most Catholics dont even have cars.
We have 2 cars. 2 nice cars I might add. And yet we make less than probably most of the posters on here. So The only point I was making origiannly before everyone got all defensive was that if you sacrafice you can have lots of kids on not as much money as some think. One of the posters said to another “how in the world do you afford 5 kids” As if it was some kind of 1% class warfare thing. It isnt. It is quite easy to adjust your life for 5 kids. We do it on one income, with many many perks that we could cut if we had to. That was kind of my point. We will have 4 kids, 1 income make less than most people our kids STILL get perks that some who “dont think they can afford more than 2” dont get.

I think it is obvious that we live in a culture where a premium is placed on the material and not on children. That includes CATHOLICS. Not any of you personally. Why is it that someone cant point out the obvious problem of Catholics contraception and someone only "wanting two kids because that is how they have always had it pictured without people freaking out and blowing things out of proportion. I am glad you all live in an area where people have many children and dont contracept or act selfishly. I dont. I live in an area where my 3 soon to be 4 kids are looked at as excessive by not only strangers but my family as well. In all of my extended family, aunts, uncles, cousins, 2nd cousins my wife and I have the biggest family at a whopping 3 kids. My sister lives in NY and has NO kids, is a model, has a cat, is married, loves money and she and her husband make many times what we do with 3 soon to be 4 kids. It is about priorities and choices. Do you choose to live for yourself, or for God and your kids?

To me it is one of the weirdest theological discussions on these boards and also one of the most inconsistent. Some of you would have everyone believe that the Church has a different set of moral principals for different income brackets. What is morally right for someone in somalia is morally right for someone in LA period. The criteria for abstaining for financial hardship should be can you provide for your family what they need. And that criteria, just like any moral choice is the same in the year 600. 2012 or 2112. It is the same in the Roman Empire, Russia, The USA, Honduras or some future empire.

 

[Augustine3]

Thanks everyone for your feedback, I’ve learnt quite a lot from your posts!

If you haven’t already guessed, this is my personal situation I’m talking about. Those that have judged me to be selfish have motivated me to examine my motives. I guess my two main reasons for wanting to limit it to 2 kids is fear and being tired.

Fear – I am not a high incomer earner and my wife works part time. We don’t agree with homeschooling so it’s not an option for us. I’m afraid I would not be able to provide for my family financially. However after reading some of your personal situations in family life, I’ve realized it’s not so bad. I didn’t know there are families out there that live so humbly. I still feel the fear…I know I must place my trust in God but my mind keeps playing up suggesting things like “what about those Christian families out there that actually die from poverty??”. On the surface this may seem silly but it’s just how I feel.

Tiredness – I realize I’m not the only one out there that is a tired parent and I take my hat off to all those parents with large families. Again my silly mind plays up suggesting something like “God gave them a greater capacity to love and endure more than I can”.

I enjoy your reading your posts and any feedback is welcome even if it may seem “negative”.

 

[Moore11]

Thanks everyone for your feedback, I’ve learnt quite a lot from your posts!

If you haven’t already guessed, this is my personal situation I’m talking about. Those that have judged me to be selfish have motivated me to examine my motives. I guess my two main reasons for wanting to limit it to 2 kids is fear and being tired.

Fear – I am not a high incomer earner and my wife works part time. We don’t agree with homeschooling so it’s not an option for us. I’m afraid I would not be able to provide for my family financially. However after reading some of your personal situations in family life, I’ve realized it’s not so bad. I didn’t know there are families out there that live so humbly. I still feel the fear…I know I must place my trust in God but my mind keeps playing up suggesting things like “what about those Christian families out there that actually die from poverty??”. On the surface this may seem silly but it’s just how I feel.

Tiredness – I realize I’m not the only one out there that is a tired parent and I take my hat off to all those parents with large families. Again my silly mind plays up suggesting something like “God gave them a greater capacity to love and endure more than I can”.

I enjoy your reading your posts and any feedback is welcome even if it may seem “negative”.

Thank you and please note that most of my posts are talking about the attitudes of society in general. Not you personally, I have no idea your situation or could judge you morally if I did. But I will tell you this. If extreme mental or physical health is your issue, then that is valid in the eye’s of the Church. I guess I am just trying to get you to think about things from a larger perspective. Am I “tired” some days. YUP!!! But here is the thing. I’d be tired some days at a cubicle, or on a rooftop working construction, or ministering to the poor as a priest. And in each of these situations you must look at it from the attitude of “vocation” what are you called to do? If you are called to be a parent, to fill as many young souls with the breath of life and potential sainthood then that is a wonderful vocation. And God will not expect you to do what you cannot. But God will also ask you if you did all you could do for Him and did it with a holy joy. And I know that I can not always answer “Yes” to that.

I sympathize, you think you have it hard? Try being the only Catholics in your families, homeschool when you mom and all your aunts and cousins are teachers, be a Stay at Home DAD who homeschools and cleans for 7 years, make less money than you could because you wish to live God’s calling. There are days, when I am exhausted, when I am less than my best and when I fail. Oh, I forgot to mention that one of my kids was on a feeding tube for 2 years. There are and were times when I just wish I could throw in the towel, when I cannot do it anymore, when I question if this is what God wants. But His gentle hand guides me, brings me back to earth (usually at 2 AM adoration sessions at a local Church.) It is then that God tells me, I Can’t do it, that a camel might just as well go through the eye of a needle, but then, He says all things are possible through me.
Taking care of 2 kids can be very hard Taking care of 1 can be hard. But look to the saints, look to those examples of us that did such harder things than working and raising 2 kids… Draw upon their trust, strength and especially faith to discern your calling. You are called to do great things. we tell our children this, yet sometimes we don’t believe it for ourselves just because we are adults.

The thing about more kids is that I cannot imagine my life without the ones I have, imagine the emptiness if I chose to not have the ones I could have.

 

[Walking_Home]

Whoa whoa whoa people. I did not say that. Someone else said that most Catholics dont even have cars.
We have 2 cars. 2 nice cars I might add. And yet we make less than probably most of the posters on here. So The only point I was making origiannly before everyone got all defensive was that if you sacrafice you can have lots of kids on not as much money as some think. One of the posters said to another “how in the world do you afford 5 kids” As if it was some kind of 1% class warfare thing. It isnt. It is quite easy to adjust your life for 5 kids. We do it on one income, with many many perks that we could cut if we had to. That was kind of my point. We will have 4 kids, 1 income make less than most people our kids STILL get perks that some who “dont think they can afford more than 2” dont get.

I think it is obvious that we live in a culture where a premium is placed on the material and not on children. That includes CATHOLICS. Not any of you personally. Why is it that someone cant point out the obvious problem of Catholics contraception and someone only "wanting two kids because that is how they have always had it pictured without people freaking out and blowing things out of proportion. I am glad you all live in an area where people have many children and dont contracept or act selfishly. I dont. I live in an area where my 3 soon to be 4 kids are looked at as excessive by not only strangers but my family as well. In all of my extended family, aunts, uncles, cousins, 2nd cousins my wife and I have the biggest family at a whopping 3 kids. My sister lives in NY and has NO kids, is a model, has a cat, is married, loves money and she and her husband make many times what we do with 3 soon to be 4 kids. It is about priorities and choices. Do you choose to live for yourself, or for God and your kids?

To me it is one of the weirdest theological discussions on these boards and also one of the most inconsistent. Some of you would have everyone believe that the Church has a different set of moral principals for different income brackets. What is morally right for someone in somalia is morally right for someone in LA period. The criteria for abstaining for financial hardship should be can you provide for your family what they need. And that criteria, just like any moral choice is the same in the year 600. 2012 or 2112. It is the same in the Roman Empire, Russia, The USA, Honduras or some future empire.

---

You were the one that brought up the 2 cars –

It comes down to this – the decision concerning family – is left up to the couple and God. If you and your wife decide on a large family – I have no problem with that – but I do have a problem when – that decision is used to try and coerce others to do the same.

 

[Moore11]

Thanks everyone for your feedback, I’ve learnt quite a lot from your posts!

If you haven’t already guessed, this is my personal situation I’m talking about. Those that have judged me to be selfish have motivated me to examine my motives. I guess my two main reasons for wanting to limit it to 2 kids is fear and being tired.

Fear – I am not a high incomer earner and my wife works part time. We don’t agree with homeschooling so it’s not an option for us. I’m afraid I would not be able to provide for my family financially. However after reading some of your personal situations in family life, I’ve realized it’s not so bad. I didn’t know there are families out there that live so humbly. I still feel the fear…I know I must place my trust in God but my mind keeps playing up suggesting things like “what about those Christian families out there that actually die from poverty??”. On the surface this may seem silly but it’s just how I feel.

Tiredness – I realize I’m not the only one out there that is a tired parent and I take my hat off to all those parents with large families. Again my silly mind plays up suggesting something like “God gave them a greater capacity to love and endure more than I can”.

I enjoy your reading your posts and any feedback is welcome even if it may seem “negative”.

I also want to address your fear. I think you fear the unknown. As we all do.
I honestly believe that if we all waited until having a child made logical safe sense that no one would have children. Ever. The fact is that there is always the unknown. The fact is some people in our world die from poverty. Always have. But it is not Christian faith to say: They should never have been born…

I dont know where you live but in the US the majority of even poverty level people are no where near dying. As they watch their TVs and smoke their cigarettes. If my wife lost her job my kids would not die, in fact I cannot imagine a situation in which this could happen to me. Now maybe it could happen to some, Actually it does every day, even in the US but your child dying is pretty far down this list of worries if you are typing on the internet.

 

[Moore11]

---

You were the one that brought up the 2 cars –

It comes down to this – the decision concerning family – is left up to the couple and God. If you and your wife decide on a large family – I have no problem with that – but I do have a problem when – that decision is used to try and coerce others to do the same.

ok…

In our world I see the opposite. People are coerced into NOT having children. From a very young age. And that is not something you can escape in Church walls, it infects us all.

Funny, I am just pointing out that God wants us to have kids within the vocation of marriage and that historically people have had way more kids with less, yet somehow that is coercing others…

 

[Moore11]

---

You were the one that brought up the 2 cars –

It comes down to this – the decision concerning family – is left up to the couple and God. If you and your wife decide on a large family – I have no problem with that – but I do have a problem when – that decision is used to try and coerce others to do the same.

It is me my wife and GOD. And I am glad you have no problem with that.

 

[benjohnson]

Being a Lutheran, my wife and I were happy with two children.

But we were missing something - and we knew it. My wife has had surgery so many times that we knew that an additional child would be a risk, but we did it anyways, and we’re so grateful to God for giving us the extra push we needed, and we can’t imagine our family without our third beloved child. A child of God.

Oddly enough, we have found that three children is no harder than two - just a bit more food to cook, and a lot more love to share.

 

[Walking_Home]

ok…

In our world I see the opposite. People are coerced into NOT having children. From a very young age. And that is not something you can escape in Church walls, it infects us all.

Funny, I am just pointing out that God wants us to have kids within the vocation of marriage and that historically people have had way more kids with less, yet somehow that is coercing others…

---

I am sure the Church is aware of the past – yet the Church has made it a point of teaching us now – responsible procreation/parenthood. That each couple needs to take into account various factors – economic,physical/mental health/etc. This is a decision a couple is to make – without interference from someone else. And just as a couple can be coerced into not having children – a couple can be just as coerced by those who have chosen to have many – to do the same.

 

[ahs]

… please note that most of my posts are talking about the attitudes of society in general. …think about things from a larger perspective. Am I “tired” some days. …And in each of these situations you must look at it from the attitude of “vocation” what are you called to do? If you are called to be a parent, to fill as many young souls with the breath of life and potential sainthood then that is a wonderful vocation. And God will not expect you to do what you cannot. But God will also ask you if you did all you could do for Him and did it with a holy joy…

I think we all agree with one another about the vocation of parenthood and the selfishness of preventing pregnancy for a frivolous reason. But I think the bigger picture is being grossly overlooked. We are talking about a couple using NFP, not contraception.
No one volunteers to give up sex during the fertile period for a frivolous reason.
No one volunteers to chart their cycles, check mucus/temps, or pee on a “stick” every morning to check hormone levels when the “stick” costs nearly $1 each, for a frivolous reason.
No one volunteers to have a seriously deep discussion with their spouse about why they should avoid sex with each other this week, month, etc… during the time when they most want to give sex to one another for a frivolous reason.
No one sacrificed their desire for sex for a frivolous reason.

People with frivolous reasons to avoid will either not avoid, or they’ll contracept. They won’t invest the time, effort, energy, and self-control that is required with NFP. They simply won’t use it for frivolous reasons.

 

[Walking_Home]

I think we all agree with one another about the vocation of parenthood and the selfishness of preventing pregnancy for a frivolous reason. But I think the bigger picture is being grossly overlooked. We are talking about a couple using NFP, not contraception.
No one volunteers to give up sex during the fertile period for a frivolous reason.
No one volunteers to chart their cycles, check mucus/temps, or pee on a “stick” every morning to check hormone levels when the “stick” costs nearly $1 each, for a frivolous reason.
No one volunteers to have a seriously deep discussion with their spouse about why they should avoid sex with each other this week, month, etc… during the time when they most want to give sex to one another for a frivolous reason.
No one sacrificed their desire for sex for a frivolous reason.

People with frivolous reasons to avoid will either not avoid, or they’ll contracept. They won’t invest the time, effort, energy, and self-control that is required with NFP. They simply won’t use it for frivolous reasons.

---

Again —

 

[wavejim]

Being a Lutheran, my wife and I were happy with two children.

But we were missing something - and we knew it. My wife has had surgery so many times that we knew that an additional child would be a risk, but we did it anyways, and we’re so grateful to God for giving us the extra push we needed, and we can’t imagine our family without our third beloved child. A child of God.

Oddly enough, we have found that three children is no harder than two - just a bit more food to cook, and a lot more love to share.

Ben…You gave me a chuckle. This might of been me writing these words 15 yrs ago. My wife and I practiced, mis-practiced , NFP for our entire marriage. The key is to never forget your offspring are children of God.

My wife and I have 11 children of God.

 

[severus68]

I think you are missing the point. Most catholics in the US do not fit your description at all. I would say most Catholics in the US have cars. If you want to talk about world wide then you can also factor that most Catholics in third world countries who live in impoverished areas have way more than 2 kids. I think you know quite well that this phenomenon of 2 kids 2 car garage, 2 cars and 5 TVs is strictly a wealthy culture phenomenon.

Never did I post that anything is wrong with harvard, it’s just that some people think that an important factor on if they should bring another precious soul into this world is if they can have all of their college paid for.

You need to stop being so defensive, and re read my post. We are talking about two very different things.

Or do you think 'most Catholics" are prayerfully and unselfishly discerning God’s will for their family? Would that explain the MAJORITY of Catholics that use birth control?

I am not from the US so my prespective is wider. Its not really about the US versus third world countries. There are many other countries which are developed or developing. Yes, the poorest, with the largest number of Catholics are perhaps from South America. The very poor in countries with a large lower class (throughout the world), tend to have large families as they need the family income to be supplemented. how many of them know how to use NFP or even know about it? Are husbands in poor societies willing to abstain when they are frustrated and angry with life?

Nothing wrong with parents who want to pay for the best university for their kids.

I am not being defensive, lol. Honestly, this is not an issue that affects me personally. I just feel strongly that assumptions should not be made and other people judged.

I have no idea of the percentage of Catholics who use ABC, in the US or in totality.
I prefer to try to develop my spirituality and try to be a better person rather than check on my Catholic neighbours.

 

[severus68]

I can guarantee that most Catholics and people in general that have 2 or less kids in a first world country have WAY more income than my wife and I do.

I would be interested in seeing your evidence. You would have to factor in the extras your family get from family.

 

[severus68]

Whoa whoa whoa people. I did not say that. Someone else said that most Catholics dont even have cars.
We have 2 cars. 2 nice cars I might add. And yet we make less than probably most of the posters on here. So The only point I was making origiannly before everyone got all defensive was that if you sacrafice you can have lots of kids on not as much money as some think. One of the posters said to another “how in the world do you afford 5 kids” As if it was some kind of 1% class warfare thing. It isnt. It is quite easy to adjust your life for 5 kids. We do it on one income, with many many perks that we could cut if we had to. That was kind of my point. We will have 4 kids, 1 income make less than most people our kids STILL get perks that some who “dont think they can afford more than 2” dont get.

I think it is obvious that we live in a culture where a premium is placed on the material and not on children. That includes CATHOLICS. Not any of you personally. Why is it that someone cant point out the obvious problem of Catholics contraception and someone only "wanting two kids because that is how they have always had it pictured without people freaking out and blowing things out of proportion. I am glad you all live in an area where people have many children and dont contracept or act selfishly. I dont. I live in an area where my 3 soon to be 4 kids are looked at as excessive by not only strangers but my family as well. In all of my extended family, aunts, uncles, cousins, 2nd cousins my wife and I have the biggest family at a whopping 3 kids. My sister lives in NY and has NO kids, is a model, has a cat, is married, loves money and she and her husband make many times what we do with 3 soon to be 4 kids. It is about priorities and choices. Do you choose to live for yourself, or for God and your kids?

To me it is one of the weirdest theological discussions on these boards and also one of the most inconsistent. Some of you would have everyone believe that the Church has a different set of moral principals for different income brackets. What is morally right for someone in somalia is morally right for someone in LA period. The criteria for abstaining for financial hardship should be can you provide for your family what they need. And that criteria, just like any moral choice is the same in the year 600. 2012 or 2112. It is the same in the Roman Empire, Russia, The USA, Honduras or some future empire.

Why are you making all this personal and even judging your sister on a internet forum?

 

[severus68]

I think we all agree with one another about the vocation of parenthood and the selfishness of preventing pregnancy for a frivolous reason. But I think the bigger picture is being grossly overlooked. We are talking about a couple using NFP, not contraception.
No one volunteers to give up sex during the fertile period for a frivolous reason.
No one volunteers to chart their cycles, check mucus/temps, or pee on a “stick” every morning to check hormone levels when the “stick” costs nearly $1 each, for a frivolous reason.
No one volunteers to have a seriously deep discussion with their spouse about why they should avoid sex with each other this week, month, etc… during the time when they most want to give sex to one another for a frivolous reason.
No one sacrificed their desire for sex for a frivolous reason.

People with frivolous reasons to avoid will either not avoid, or they’ll contracept. They won’t invest the time, effort, energy, and self-control that is required with NFP. They simply won’t use it for frivolous reasons.

Yes.

 

[Moore11]

I think we all agree with one another about the vocation of parenthood and the selfishness of preventing pregnancy for a frivolous reason. But I think the bigger picture is being grossly overlooked. We are talking about a couple using NFP, not contraception.
No one volunteers to give up sex during the fertile period for a frivolous reason.
No one volunteers to chart their cycles, check mucus/temps, or pee on a “stick” every morning to check hormone levels when the “stick” costs nearly $1 each, for a frivolous reason.
No one volunteers to have a seriously deep discussion with their spouse about why they should avoid sex with each other this week, month, etc… during the time when they most want to give sex to one another for a frivolous reason.
No one sacrificed their desire for sex for a frivolous reason.

People with frivolous reasons to avoid will either not avoid, or they’ll contracept. They won’t invest the time, effort, energy, and self-control that is required with NFP. They simply won’t use it for frivolous reasons.

The Church teaches that NFP can be used with a contraceptive mentality and can be abused. The fact that one would use NFP or ABC is interesting but it is not the deciding factor in the gravity of contraception.