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Moore11
Guest
Because it is a thread about a personal topic and it is pretty easy to judge my sister who freely rejects God and lives an immoral life. That is sad but true.
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Moore11
Guest
There are studies that suggest a HIGH ( I think around 80%) percentage of “self identified Catholics” in the US use ABC. I think the number is less if you look at “practicing” Catholics but it is still high. Just look at europe’s birth rate. Most Catholic couples I know use ABC and are pretty forward about it. I have taught NFP classes so I am a little versed in the large percentage of Catholics who use ABC or want to use NFP for contraceptive mentality.
I dont know whre this idea that college is bad is coming from. I never said that. Only that if one uses the idea that we can’t have more than 2 kids because we can’t send more than that to harvard as a valid financial hardship then it is not really legit.
I hope all my kids go to Harvard. Or a nice Catholic school.
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severus68
Guest
There are forum rules which state that posting should not be about being personal.
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severus68
Guest
Are you speaking about the US or the whole world. Sorry, but unless you yourself has asked each Catholic in the world or at least in the US or the Vatican has said so, I do not think you can make such a statement. Anyway, why not just state what the Church teaches and leave it at that. Why make judgements about others?There are studies that suggest a HIGH ( I think around 80%) percentage of “self identified Catholics” in the US use ABC. I think the number is less if you look at “practicing” Catholics but it is still high. Just look at europe’s birth rate. Most Catholic couples I know use ABC and are pretty forward about it. I have taught NFP classes so I am a little versed in the large percentage of Catholics who use ABC or want to use NFP for contraceptive mentality.
I dont know whre this idea that college is bad is coming from. I never said that. Only that if one uses the idea that we can’t have more than 2 kids because we can’t send more than that to harvard as a valid financial hardship then it is not really legit.
I hope all my kids go to Harvard. Or a nice Catholic school.
I would not wish anything but the best for your kids.
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Walking_Home
Guest
severus68:
Because it is a thread about a personal topic and it is pretty easy to judge my sister who freely rejects God and lives an immoral life. That is sad but true.
The only one – in a position to judge – is God.
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ahs
Guest
No it doesn’t. The Church says that natrual birth regulation, using only the infertile periods, periodic continence, is not only “in conformity with the objective criteria of morality” (CCC 2370) but also “represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood.” (CCC 2399)
Can you please provide the Church teaching, from an actual Church teaching document (that would be the Catechism or an Encyclical) that says “NFP can be used with a contraceptive mentality” or that “NFP can be abused”. We don’t get to make assertions about Church teaching without providing some credible source/information to back it up.
I don’t know what this means. Are you saying that the sin of contraception is in the desire to not procreate as opposed to the actual thwarting of the procreative nature of the marital act? Please clarify.
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TheRealJuliane
Guest
I so love this post.I’m going to add a little something here even though it was not addressed to me.
We have 4 kids. Well, the 4th is due in december but for the purposes of this answer we have the Expenses of 4 kids. We have made some hard choices. But we are very blessed. I am a stay at home homeschooling dad. I dont work. My wife does. She makes a modest but decent wage. We have no plans to “limit” our family to conform with modern materialistic society. 5 kids would be quite easy to afford. Sure, we can’t put them all in ski lessons every year, we drive a minivan instead of the cool cars we want, and we bought our house when we had 1 kid at the top of the bubble so we are stuck in our home for a while so we just pile kids in rooms. It is quite easy and joyful. Fortunately we have grandparents and family who provide us with some pretty cool things for the kids, ski lessons, swim lessons, ballet etc. We live in an affordable area of the country. But even without any of that our lives would be more than complete. The idea of “how in the world” do you afford 5 kids is indicative of a broader societal problem that sees children as burdens and things that get in the way of our selfish “needs” of luxury. We are a 1 income family who has made sacrifices and choices to follow God’s will for us, not our own will. Every day I wake up I cannot wait to get the children up, every time I think my life is perfect it just gets better. does that mean that sometimes cleaning up poo smeared all over a crib is not fun. Absolutely! But I hope I get to do it for as long as God blesses us with children. Our job as parents is to raise saints. If it is God’s will for a family to be more “fruitful” than 2 children I have no idea why you would ever think of telling Him no and think you will not have to answer to Him later.
Curious? Why only 2? what is so "magic about that number? Why not just 1 or 12? Why is 2 the optimal number of children for so many? Honestly 5 kids is not that more expensive than 2. Unless you shop at the Gap, and want to send them to harvard and they expect to get every princess toy disney wants to sell them.
Disclaimer. I understand that many cannot have more than 2 or any children for that matter. I also understand that the OP did not specifically say that the OP’s view was to limit oneself to 2 children. I also understand that finances can and do play a big part of discernment.
The thing is, I have never heard parents of a large family say they wished they had fewer children. But I have heard many parents of 1 or 2 kids say that they wished they’d had more. I couldn’t but I would have had 6, or however many, if I could have. 2 is really a pretty small number.
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JackieMom
Guest
Of course “it” can be done as you describe. But it is not wrong or selfish to want to have one’s children educated at a good private school, wear quality clothing, eat quality foods, enjoy dinners out, take one’s family on relaxing and interesting vacations, watch a favorite TV show or two, have a nicely decorated home that is warm and inviting, drive a safe, reliable car…
I find it disturbing how many people suggest that having more children and making each subsequent child do with fewer and fewer advantages in life is the moral ideal, whereas limiting one’s family to a manageable (for that couple) size is selfish or sinful.
Example - my husband is a musician. It is very important to us that all of our kids are exposed to high-quality music instruction. For my three, this runs us about $400.00 a month. It is something I want for my children - to be competent musicians as adults. Catholic school is another “thing” we pay for, to the tune of about $14,000 a year. Yes, we could go public, but that would be selling my children short. We could NEVER take a vacation, but some of our best family memories and experiences have been “out and about” in the world. I remember my parents taking my brother and myself to Europe when I was 10 and he was 12 - and that experience was SO amazing.
I want to be able to sit with each of my children and help with homework at night. I want to have time to tuck them each into bed. I want to be able to provide experiences for them that will help them become well-rounded individuals. I don’t want to pile kids into bedrooms - I don’t think that’s healthy. I don’t want my kids always having to see Mom and Dad scrape by, worry about bills and go without.
Anyone with kids has sacrificed. I haven’t slept for more than three hours straight in 12 years! My home is littered with children’s books and backpacks and toys. I spend every afternoon driving my kids from place to place. I make macaroni more often than I’d like. It’s okay - I love my job. But do I want to be 45 years old and still changing diapers? No. I’d like to have my bed back, and I’d like to be able to enjoy my marriage a bit more.
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BlueEyedLady
Guest
Some people are superparents and can be wonderful parents to a bunch of kids. Others just can’t. My sister-in-law is hands down the best mom I know. She has four kids of her own, and my brother’s two daughters from a previous relationship live there half time. 6 kids and she works full time. She get no sleep, but she is at every soccer game, swim meet, play, concert, everything.
On the other hand there are people who for whatever reason could not be good parents to more than 1 or 2. My mom is one of those people. She had two, but we are far enough apart that she didn’t have two in the house at the same time for long. Because of her depression there is no way that she would have had the energy for 4 or 6 kids the way my SIL does, and she definitely wouldn’t have had the patience. She was a great mom though, but she wouldn’t have been functional if she had had a brood.
I can’t believe that people judge others based on how many kids they have. You have no idea what may be going on with another family or why they make the decisions that they do.
On the other hand there are people who for whatever reason could not be good parents to more than 1 or 2. My mom is one of those people. She had two, but we are far enough apart that she didn’t have two in the house at the same time for long. Because of her depression there is no way that she would have had the energy for 4 or 6 kids the way my SIL does, and she definitely wouldn’t have had the patience. She was a great mom though, but she wouldn’t have been functional if she had had a brood.
I can’t believe that people judge others based on how many kids they have. You have no idea what may be going on with another family or why they make the decisions that they do.
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Augustine3
Guest
God bless you sister! That’s exactly what I wanted to see!
I’ve been thinking, what’s wrong with wanting fewer and providing more for them? Is that so selfish?
However the question is, is that a “serious” enough reason to limit the number of children in the family in accordance with the Church teachings?
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JackieMom
Guest
Probably not. I very well may be damning myself to hell for not being open to more and more children.
Let’s face it - how many big families do you see at mass? Most Catholics are limiting their family sizes for dozens of reasons that are at least partly “selfish” in nature. If they are all going to hell anyway, they might as well just do away with the religion and live however they want. Why do they even bother attending Mass if they are damned for stopping at 3 kids?
Something that my mother always told me was that, “Someone will ALWAYS be able to one-up you.” For every homeschooling mother of 9, there is a homeschooling mother of 10. As for me, I’d like to enjoy my God-given life and not spend it martyring myself on the altar of domesticity and competitive reproduction.
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Augustine3
Guest
That brings me back to my original question that I don’t feel has been fully answered. If a couple does not have a serious enough reason to limit their children but continue to use NFP (no artificial contraceptives) how serious is the sin? Is it a mortal or venial sin or just a mere imperfection?
This question is open for anyone to answer…
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Walking_Home
Guest
Best thing for the couple to do – is seek out the advice from a priest. Even so – from reading post #29 in this thread – there can be priests out there – who are not giving out correct information.
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severus68
Guest
It really is for you to discern that with the help of a priest.I myself do not think its wrong to want more for your children and I do not think it is right to have many children on the basis that the older will take care of the younger.
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severus68
Guest
Yes and yes.
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severus68
Guest
There is also the fact of having many children and expect the older to take care of, spend time with the younger ones. Parents should after their children, children deserve to have the time and energy for studies and self development.
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thewanderer
Guest
I don’t want to start a big fight, but, I just want to point out that there is a lot to be said both ways for this argument. Like just about any other parenting issue you could bring up it largely depends on the idivuals involved and the exact circumstances. I’ve seen large families where siblings pitching in was a good thing and extremely beneficial to all involved and I’ve heard of situations where it really was not a good idea. Your statement sounds as though you are trying to say that parents expecting older siblings to help their younger siblings will always rob them of their childhood when in reality it often helps their children develop closer bonds as well as a greater sense of responsibility. Are there times when parents put too much of a load on their children? Yes, of course. Does that mean that parents can never expect their children to pitch in around the house and with siblings? Not at all, it just has to be done correctly for that family at that point in time. Which harkens back to the important point that this kind of thing is something that depends so much on particular circumstances that it is impossible to set out a specific rules. The only universal rule that can be claimed is that a family must avoid selfishness in this matter. So, what is important is for each couple to examine their motives, take time out of their busy lives to pray about it somewhere quiet. If the couple is sure that their reasons are not selfish then they are fine, so long as they make an effort to be honest with themselves, and they should learn to ignore anyone who trues to bully them with talk of their reasons not being serious enough. If the couple in question honestly and sincerely makes an effort to ensure that their reasons to avoid are not selfish, then they are good and do not need to worry about the opinions of others in this matter.
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severus68
Guest
I come from a large family, We each had chores , once we were old enough. We are all very close. However, we were expected to study hard and go as far as we could in our studies. None of us were expected to parent younger siblings. We turned out fine.
My apologies for not being clear. I was referring to situations (here I am not referring to anyone on CAF), where there are many children and the only way the parents can cope is for the younger kids (daughters really) to take over substantial care of the younger kids while mum concentrates on the newborn. So the girls are really mothers to the younger kids. This is a lot more than just helping out. So, I feel strongly, that the decision to have as many children as possible should never be on the basis that the younger children can take on part of the load. Children are entitled to their own lives and have the ability to discern what is available to them.
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Walking_Home
Guest
I agree with you. I’ve known of cases – where responsibility for the care of the younger children was placed on the oldest daughter-- that she did not have much time of her own. In one case – when the daughter married and moved out – it affected the youngest-- since the mothering had come from his older sister.
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Em_in_FL
Guest
Two great answers.
No, you don’t HAVE to go to a priest… but if you’re, personally, having a difficult time discerning whether or not your motives are selfish at any given time, then YES, absolutely - discuss this with a priest or spiritual director.
Remember, nothing is ever PERMANENT. You may have a very valid reason for wanting to delay pregnancy at a certain point.
But allow God to bless you in ways that you may not even fathom at this time… *allow *Him to give you the graces necessary… be they time, talent, health, finances - WHATEVER may be holding you back!..
Things CAN (and often DO!) change.
NFP should always be DYNAMIC - decided on a month-by-month basis… PRAYERFULLY.
No permanent decisions.
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